Jesus is not muslim

[Semper_Fi_1]

Edris:

Pre-existing can range from Angels to Dust

No. There was a time when Angels were not, they were created beings. Pre-existing means you were not created and that there was no time when you were not. Yeshua Hamashiach was not created, He was begotten of the Father.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

John 6

“62”: What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
“63”: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
“64”: But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
“65”: And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
“66”: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
“67”: Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
“68”: Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
“69”: And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Edris:

I don’t want to say from God to Dust, because we don’t believe that someone can be God one day and the other day he’s a man, or both at the same time (he’s either God or not)

Edris, I think you have a confused view of the Trinity. A modalistic one. Here is what we believe (from the Athanasian Creed):

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith. Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally. Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being. For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another. But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, . What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit. Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit. The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite. Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited. Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty. Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God. Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord. As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords. The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son. Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits. And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons. Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity. It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh. For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is both God and man. He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother – existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity. Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ. He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity. He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures. For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man. He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire. This is the catholic faith. One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

 

[memnoch_lover]

According to muslim , Muslim is arabic word meaning submission to One God. Jesus submit to one God . Therefore Jesus is muslim in arabic sense of language…

Whereas jesus is not muslim in islamic sense.

muslim in islamic sense is one who submit to one God and recognize muhammad as his prophet. Here jesus does not know muhammad therefore it is difficult to recognize him as prophet.Jesus did not declare muhammad is prophet.Therefore jesus is not muslim in islamic sense.

therefore jews are muslim in arabic sense of language but not in islamic sense, since jews submit to one God (YHWH)

christains are muslims in arabic sense of language but not in islamic sense since they submit to one God, Father, Son, HolySpirit.

Therefore jesus is not muslim in islamic sense

 

[jcaz]

I do not understand the purpose of this thread, as you just finished another thread with essentially the same meaning. As such, to respond, rather then retype my entire response, here’s what I said previously:

jcaz:

I think memnoch_lover that you perhaps have a problem with the word Muslim.

Please do understand that it is an arabic word that has always been used to describe one who is submitting to someone else, such as a slave who submits to his master.

No one will deny that Jesus, peace be upon him, submitted his will to the will of his Lord. No one denies that Jesus was a submittter.

Now, if you agree thus far, and surely all Catholics do, now simply take those last two sentences and translate them into arabic. No one will deny that Jesus “as-la-ma” (submitted) to his Lord. And no one dies that Jesus was a “musliman” (submitter).

So as I explained on a previous thread, was Jesus, peace be upon him, a Muslim in the sense of following the religion of Islaam, as it is known today, meaning did he pray 5 times a day, fast the month of Ramadaan, and make pilgrimage to Makkah? No. He did not. By saying Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Muslim, we are not saying he did those things. Rather, we are saying that he was a submitter who submitted his will to the will of his Lord. And any arab Christian, although they will dislike to call Jesus a Muslim, because they may feel it implies following the religion of Islam, any arab speaking Christian will have to admit that ALL of the prophets “as-la-muu” (submitted) to the will of their Lord, and as such, ALL of the prophets were “muslimoon” (submitters).

Linguistically, anyone who completely submits his will to the will of his Creator is a Muslim (submitter).

You are correct. Most Christians would not be Muslims, linguistically, because most of them do not submit their will entirely and completely to God. Rather, most of them submit their will to Paul, the Pope, and other than them.

If you are referring to what makes a person a Muslim in the sense of following the religion of God, the religion of Islaam, then Yes, it is their submission to Allaah and their belief that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the messenger of Allaah. But if you mean Muslim in a linguistic sense, a person is a muslim, is one who submits, when he chooses to submit his will to the will of his Creator.

 

[r.gonzales]

:banghead:

 

[jcaz]

However, here’s the deal: granted it is semantics, but the wording you use is not quite correct.

Therefore jesus is not muslim in islamic sense

Jesus IS, no doubt about it, a person who surrended his will to the will of his Creator. He was a Muslim through and through.

But, did he follow the religion of Islaam as it exists today? No. And I have stated that previously. But that does not change the fact that he was a Muslim in the sense of worshiping only ONE God, not associating partners to this God, and by surrendering his will to the will of his Lord.

Lastly, you stated:

christains are muslims in arabic sense of language but not in islamic sense since they submit to one God, Father, Son, HolySpirit

Actually, and I hope you do not feel offended, but from that same context, Christians are neither Muslim in the sense of following the religion of Islaam as it exists today, and also Christians are not Muslim in the sense of submitting to one God and worshipping Him alone. This has been discussed on other threads and will surely be discussed in the future. As of now, we can respectfully agree to disagree. However, I simply wanted to correct that statement that Christians are Muslims in the same sense that Jesus was a Muslim.

Jesus, peace be upon him, worshipped and called upon ONLY his Lord. And there is only one place in the Bible where Jesus specifically teaches Christians how to pray, and in this one place, he tells them, “when you pray, pray like this: OUR FATHER, who art in heaven, etc, etc.” Jesus, peace be upon him, worshipped and called upon ONLY his Lord, and this is what makes him a Muslim linquistically. Post Council of Nicea Christians do not fit into this category.

 

[r.gonzales]

this is probably the simpliest way this can be put… hopefully, he’ll get the picture with this explanation.

Allah’s religion is one. He has called that religion islam, which means submission to His will, His laws and legislations. it is the religion that He sent all of His prophets and messengers with, the religion that they all called to: the worship of Allah alone, without associating any partners with Him in that.

throughout time, Allah has sent His messengers* with certain laws and legislations, each messenger having a slightly different set of laws from the next. some with laws and legislations that completely abrogate the laws that were revealed before them, some with laws and legislations that amend the laws that were revealed before them - whether by restricting them, or lessening their restrictions.

was prophet jesus a muslim following the specific laws and legislations that prophet muhammad was sent with? no, he was a muslim following the specific laws and legislations that he was sent with; laws and legislations that made amendments and abrogated to some of the laws that the messenger before him (moses) was sent with.

• • note: there is a distinction in islamic beliefs with respect to prophets and messengers. all messengers are prophets, but not all prophets are messengers.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Another thread was started on this topic, so they have been merged for the benefit of all who are participating in this discussion.

Thank you for maintaining charitablility and compassion for those who do not necessarily agree with you.

Peace

 

[De_Maria]

jcaz:

Perhaps you should ponder that Adam was born completely of the spirit with neither human father nor human mother.

You should ponder that, and perhaps start praying to Adam, because he is surely “more worthy” of your prayers then a half-spirit.

Yours is a misunderstanding of the nature of God, the Holy Trinity. Jesus, God, became man. He was not made by God such as Adam was.

John 1:1** In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. 9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.**

Because your God is far from you, you assume that the Holy Trinity is also far from us, but that is not so. God is He in Whom we live, move and have our being. (Acts 17:18)

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

this is probably the simpliest way this can be put… hopefully, he’ll get the picture with this explanation.

Allah’s religion is one.

Shiite, Sunni, Sufi, Black and many others.

He has called that religion islam, which means submission to His will, His laws and legislations.

Correct. By the sword if necessary. And if they do not convert, they will be subject to the Islamic authority and pay a tax. They will have no rights.

it is the religion that He sent all of His prophets and messengers with, the religion that they all called to: the worship of Allah alone, without associating any partners with Him in that.

But in the Quran, the Quran specifically states that Allah is not a Trinity with Mary and Jesus. Where is that Trinity worshipped? Nowhere.

So the Quran is mistaken.

And then, according to you, when Allah uses the term “We” to refer to Himself, He is talking about Himself and His angels, thereby associating partners with Himself.

throughout time, Allah has sent His messengers* with certain laws and legislations, each messenger having a slightly different set of laws from the next.

Really? Which were the laws sent with Moses?

Which were the laws sent with Jesus? Where have you seen them written and how did they differ from each other?

some with laws and legislations that completely abrogate the laws that were revealed before them,some with laws and legislations that amend the laws that were revealed before them - whether by restricting them, or lessening their restrictions.

Only Islam abrogates the previous laws. God is absolute. He does not change.

was prophet jesus a muslim

No. Jesus is God. We, Catholics, submit to God’s law of love, but not in fear as you do, but out of love.

John 14
15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

following the specific laws and legislations that prophet muhammad was sent with? no, he was a muslim following the specific laws and legislations that he was sent with; laws and legislations that made amendments and abrogated to some of the laws that the messenger before him (moses) was sent with.

Jesus abrogated and amended nothing. He fulfilled the law. Understand that the New Covenant in Jesus blood idoes not nullify the Old Covenant, it fulfills it more completely.
** Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Romans 3:
31 Do we, then, destroy the law through faith? God forbid: but we establish the law.
**

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

No. Jesus is God.

Allah says, certainly those who said that Allah is the messiah, son of mary, have disbelieved. say, “so who would be capable of anything against Allah if He wanted to destroy the messiah, his mother and all of those on the earth? and Allah’s is the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills and Allah is capable of everything.” (5:17)

certainly those who said that Allah is the messiah, son of mary, have disbelieved. and the messiah said, “o children of israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. surely, whoever associates anything with Allah [in His worship], then Allah has made paradise forbidden to him, and his abode will be the fire. and there are not any helpers for the oppressors.” (5:72)

 

[Melanie01]

Muhammed was after the earthly Life of Jesus the Christ was he not?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

r.gonzales:

He creates what He wills and Allah is capable of everything." (5:17)

not according to the quran. according to the quran it is impossible for God to become human. thus the quran contradicts itself.

 

[Gracias]

Even if Jesus was a muslim (one who submits to Allah) He lived his life much much better than any other prophets ever lived on earth. Thats all I can say here.

 

[r.gonzales]

Semper Fi:

not according to the quran. according to the quran it is impossible for God to become human. thus the quran contradicts itself.

that’s like saying that there is a contradiction between the fact that Allah is capable of everything and the fact that Allah cannot create a rock that is so heavy that He Himself cannot lift it… retarded logic .

 

[r.gonzales]

Gracias:

Even if Jesus was a muslim (one who submits to Allah) He lived his life much much better than any other prophets ever lived on earth. Thats all I can say here.

for us muslims, we know that the prophets and messengers as a whole are the best of creation and that prophet muhammad is the seal of prophethood, the chief of the prophets and messengers. as for this pissing match of “my prophet was better than yours” you can get into that if you like. i myself, however, will refrain from such idle speech, for i know that all of the prophets and messengers are at the head of His righteous servants and that they will receive the greatest rewards with their Lord.

 

[Gracias]

r.gonzales:

that’s your opinion and if you want to believe that, go ahead.

for us muslims, we know that the prophets and messengers as a whole are the best of creation and that prophet muhammad is the seal of prophethood, the chief of the prophets and messengers. as for this pissing match of “my prophet was better than yours” you can get into that if you like. i myself, however, will refrain from such idle speech, for i know that all of the prophets and messengers are at the head of His righteous servants and that they will receive the greatest rewards with their Lord.

Oh Yes of course all prophets are the servants of God. But you are the blind fool - who accepts a criminal as your prophet.

 

[r.gonzales]

Gracias:

But you are the blind fool - who accepts a criminal as your prophet.

nice charitable conduct there .

 

[Karin]

Gracias:

But you are the blind fool - who accepts a criminal as your prophet.

A criminal…hmmm interesting point of view there!
I think that the mud slinging from both sides is a bit ridiculous!