Jesus is the only way

[ShellKell]

I saw this reply to a post from Fr. Vincent Serpa and thought it was wrong and misleading so I thought I would respond. I don’t mean any disrespect toward Fr. Vincent but as an apologist I would hope that he misspoke in his reply.

Dear Re,

I did not see the program and cannot comment on it. Certainly, the Church does not teach relativism or new age theology. In acknowledging the possibility of non-Christians attaining salvation, the Church is not in any way denying the truth of the Gospel. Maybe this can help.

There were two workmen who attempted to dig a separate ditch to a distant point. They expected to be paid but didn’t know much more than that. The first man took a pick and a shovel and began. The second man, a half mile away began to prepare to dig, but happened to meet the owner who gave him instructions, including the purpose for the ditch and several power tools to enable him to do a good job. In two weeks he was finished. A month an a half later he met the first man who had just finished his ditch. The first man asked where he could fine the owner in order to be paid. But the second man said, “You didn’t use the proper tools, you don’t know the purpose of the ditch and you don’t even know the owner. You didn’t follow the proper instructions and you expect to be paid?” The first man objected, “But I dug the ditch!”

I realize that all analogies limp. But I think you get the idea. The first man represents those people who don’t have the benefit of Revelation and the grace of the sacraments, but lived a virtuous life, even though it was much more difficult for them. The second man represents those who have the benefit of the faith and the graces bestowed through the Church.

Virtue is not easy for anybody. We can’t’ assume that because some people don’t have the faith that therefore virtue is easier for them. It is actually more difficult. The Church is not saying that ALL Hindus and ALL Buddhists, etc. are going to march right into heaven. They too must dig the ditch! But if they do, even without the considerable helps that we have, God will not turn them away.

NO ONE comes to the Father except through Christ. All Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and anybody who doesn’t except Christ will be cast away. The only exception I could see are Babies and those who have never had the chance to hear about Christ, but to those who have had an opportunity and rejected Christ will not see the light of Heaven.

This is not new age relativism. It is the Savior paying those who started work at the end of the day the same wage as those who worked all day. His love is like that! All real love is expansive. It doesn’t’t measure. It’s not tit for tat. Who paid Him for his passion? Certainly not us!

Please read this on the early Church Fathers and this subject:

catholic.com/library/Salv…the_Church.asp

Also write again if you have further questions. You are in our prayers.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

This is a misrepresentation of the parable. What the Parable is saying is that those who become Christian later on in life will inherit the same reward as those have been a Christian for a long time. Being a Christian is ALL ABOUT CHRIST. Not about being a good person or claiming to worship the same God. Jesus paid the price for our sins and I can’t understand why people keep leaving this truth for another.

 

[VociMike]

Interesting how you laid down a hard and fast rule for salvation and then immediately made an exception to the rule.

Let me ask about an example, that of a Muslim living in Saudi Arabia. Does that Muslim have a realistic opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ and his message? If not, can that Muslim possibly be saved?

 

[LaSalle]

NO ONE comes to the Father except through Christ. All Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and anybody who doesn’t except Christ will be cast away. The only exception I could see are Babies and those who have never had the chance to hear about Christ, but to those who have had an opportunity and rejected Christ will not see the light of Heaven.

Where did you get your exception from? … at what age would they lose that exception? … and what do you mean by ‘hear about Christ’?

 

[Church_Militant]

Hey Shell,

Since you are a “Bible only Christian”, I’ll address this from the New Testament.

Jesus says in John 10, 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. 15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

How do you reconcile that with your position?

And then the story of Cornelius in Acts chapter 10?

What does Peter say? 31 Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thy alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppe, and call hither Simon, who is surnamed Peter: he lodgeth in the house of Simon a tanner, by the sea side. 33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee: and thou hast done well in coming. Now therefore all we are present in thy sight, to hear all things whatsoever are commanded thee by the Lord. 34 And Peter opening his mouth, said: In very deed I perceive, that God is not a respecter of persons. 35 But in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh justice, is acceptable to him.

Read that whole chapter for context, but the message is clear.

Fr. Serpa is spot on correct when he responded to that question. The Catholic Church is in line with the New Testament in what it teaches, especially in this case of those persons who, through no fault of their own, have not heard the Gospel.

The essential Catholic teaching is that, just John 14:6 says, Jesus is the only way, but we are also honest enough to say that we do not know how God will deal with them since He is both perfectly merciful and perfectly just. Yet there is no question that we can trust in Him to be both.

These two passages that I have quoted offer a balance to John 14:6 and (IMO) give all the more force to the great commission in Matthew 28:19 & 20.

 

[Tom]

NO ONE comes to the Father except through Christ. All Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and anybody who doesn’t except Christ will be cast away. The only exception I could see are Babies and those who have never had the chance to hear about Christ, but to those who have had an opportunity and rejected Christ will not see the light of Heaven.

You left out Jews. So you think Abraham, our father in faith, Elijah, Moses, all the prophets who never even heard the name Jesus are where? in Hell? They are in heaven through Jesus the Christ even though they never heard of the name. Same as today. God is not going to deny anyone because he is ignorant of His teaching. The soul will be judged and either be accepted through Jesus or not.

 

[allhers]

You left out Jews. So you think Abraham, our father in faith, Elijah, Moses, all the prophets who never even heard the name Jesus are where? in Hell? They are in heaven through Jesus the Christ even though they never heard of the name. Same as today. God is not going to deny anyone because he is ignorant of His teaching. The soul will be judged and either be accepted through Jesus or not.

Exactly!! So, Fr. Vincent, as usual, is right!!

 

[lozeerose]

Ahhh! Snap!

 

[ShellKell]

I saw this reply to a post from Fr.

Vincent Serpa and thought it was wrong and misleading so I thought I would respond. I don’t mean any disrespect toward Fr. Vincent but as an apologist I would hope that he misspoke in his reply.

NO ONE comes to the Father except through Christ. All Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims and anybody who doesn’t except Christ will be cast away. The only exception I could see are Babies and those who have never had the chance to hear about Christ, **but to those who have had an opportunity and rejected Christ will not see the light of Heaven. **

This is a misrepresentation of the parable. What the Parable is saying is that those who become Christian later on in life will inherit the same reward as those have been a Christian for a long time. Being a Christian is ALL ABOUT CHRIST. Not about being a good person or claiming to worship the same God. Jesus paid the price for our sins and I can’t understand why people keep leaving this truth for another.

Before you jump across the table with knife in hand, why don’t you actually go back and read the thread.

From VociMike
Let me ask about an example, that of a Muslim living in Saudi Arabia. Does that Muslim have a realistic opportunity to learn about Jesus Christ and his message? If not, can that Muslim possibly be saved?

Read for yourself the dispute between Christians and Muslims. Muslims for the most part are raised to hate Christians, the war between the two is a Religious war not one of skin color. I would bet very few Muslims don’t know about Jesus, but all refute him as the Savior.

From LeSalle
Where did you get your exception from?

Because God is Fair and Just and I don’t believe he would condemn someone who hasn’t had the chance to hear the Gospel.

… at what age would they lose that exception?

This would vary from person to person, God knows if they are able to understand.

… and what do you mean by ‘hear about Christ’?

Hear the Gospel message, There was a time when you first heard the Salvation message.

From Church Militant

Since you are a “Bible only Christian”, I’ll address this from the New Testament.

Who said I was a Bible only Christian?

Jesus says in John 10, 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine, and mine know me. 15 As the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father: and I lay down my life for my sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

How do you reconcile that with your position?

I expected more out of you than this,
Mat 25:32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
John 10:14 mentions “Sheep that are not of this fold” not Goats.
Jews and Gentiles are what he is talking about, not Christians and Non-Christians.

What does Peter say? 31 Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thy alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. 32 Send therefore to Joppe, and call hither Simon, who is surnamed Peter: he lodgeth in the house of Simon a tanner, by the sea side. 33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee: and thou hast done well in coming. Now therefore all we are present in thy sight, to hear all things whatsoever are commanded thee by the Lord. 34 And Peter opening his mouth, said: In very deed I perceive, that God is not a respecter of persons. 35 But in every nation, he that feareth him, and worketh justice, is acceptable to him.

You almost sound like the Faith only group, I know many people who say they believe in God, but God doesn’t say that all you have to do believe in him and your ticket is punched.

 

[ShellKell]

You left out Jews. So you think Abraham, our father in faith, Elijah, Moses, all the prophets who never even heard the name Jesus are where? in Hell? They are in heaven through Jesus the Christ even though they never heard of the name. Same as today. God is not going to deny anyone because he is ignorant of His teaching. The soul will be judged and either be accepted through Jesus or not.

You have heard of the difference between the Old and New covenants haven’t you?

 

[Tom]

You have heard of the difference between the Old and New covenants haven’t you?

Gee, no, I didn’t know there were two… PLEASE

 

[ShellKell]

Gee, no, I didn’t know there were two… PLEASE

Yep, there are two. I’m busy at work now but after youth group tonight I will try and explain it to you. It’s a very cool story that I’m sure will blow you away.

 

[VociMike]

Read for yourself the dispute between Christians and Muslims. Muslims for the most part are raised to hate Christians, the war between the two is a Religious war not one of skin color. I would bet very few Muslims don’t know about Jesus, but all refute him as the Savior.

You contradict yourself. First you talk about how they are raised to hate Christians, then you talk about how they have almost all heard the truth about Jesus. Who told them? Not their parents or rulers, who have raised them to hate Christians!

No, what Muslims are taught about Jesus Christ is not true, and where else would the typical Muslim go to find the truth? It’s not exactly like they can go into a Christian bookstore or church in Saudia Arabia.

 

[LaSalle]

Because God is Fair and Just and I don’t believe he would condemn someone who hasn’t had the chance to hear the Gospel.

OK. True. So you get this from your understanding of who God is and not specifically from the bible … or I’m sure you would have pulled out a verse, right?

This would vary from person to person, God knows if they are able to understand.

and

Hear the Gospel message, There was a time when you first heard the Salvation message.

So if they didn’t hear the Gospel message, they cannot be blamed? i.e. still may have salvation?

Gosh, you’re beginning to sound awfully Catholic!

One must be in a position to have heard the proper Gospel message, right? What happens if all they have heard is how wrong this teaching of Christians is? Does that count as having heard the Gospel message?

 

[cpayne]

It is true that Jesus is the only Way–He said so. But Jesus is not the same thing as explicitly confessional Christianity. If He is the light of the world, others may be following His light to a greater or lesser extent without explicitly knowing it.

 

[ShellKell]

VociMike;5022704]You contradict yourself. First you talk about how they are raised to hate Christians, then you talk about how they have almost all heard the truth about Jesus. Who told them? Not their parents or rulers, who have raised them to hate Christians!

Ok, lets walk through this very slowly so what I say won’t be taken out of context or things added to what I say. This is actually what I said: *Muslims for the most part are raised to hate Christians, the war between the two is a Religious war not one of skin color. I would bet very few Muslims don’t know about Jesus, but all refute him as the Savior. *
As you can see I never said that Muslims are told the TRUTH about Jesus, but most ARE in fact taught to hate Christians.

No, what Muslims are taught about Jesus Christ is not true, and where else would the typical Muslim go to find the truth? It’s not exactly like they can go into a Christian bookstore or church in Saudia Arabia.

Now your getting it.

 

[VociMike]

Ok, lets walk through this very slowly so what I say won’t be taken out of context or things added to what I say. This is actually what I said: *Muslims for the most part are raised to hate Christians, the war between the two is a Religious war not one of skin color. I would bet very few Muslims don’t know about Jesus, but all refute him as the Savior. *
As you can see I never said that Muslims are told the TRUTH about Jesus, but most ARE in fact taught to hate Christians.

Now your getting it.

So if they cannot learn the truth of Jesus Christ, can they be saved or not?

 

[ShellKell]

So if they cannot learn the truth of Jesus Christ, can they be saved or not?

Jesus can save who he wants, but I wouldn’t want to test it out. All we can go by is what the Scriptures teach.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

Do you think this verse should be omitted from the Scriptures?

 

[VociMike]

Jesus can save who he wants, but I wouldn’t want to test it out. All we can go by is what the Scriptures teach.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.

Do you think this verse should be omitted from the Scriptures?

Don’t ask rude questions.

However, are you certain that you know exactly what it means to come to the Father by Jesus Christ? You yourself said you believe that somehow babies come to the Father by Jesus Christ, so there must be more than one way, right?

 

[ShellKell]

Don’t ask rude questions.

Don’t be so sensitive, this was not a rude question.

However, are you certain that you know exactly what it means to come to the Father by Jesus Christ? You yourself said you believe that somehow babies come to the Father by Jesus Christ, so there must be more than one way, right?

 

[VociMike]

Don’t be so sensitive, this was not a rude question.

Asking a Christian if he thinks some part of scripture should be omitted is rude. I see that kind of “I’m more Christian than you are” rhetoric all the time. Perhaps you didn’t realize the implications of what you wrote.

Like I said, the only thing we can do is go to the Scriptures.
Luk 18:16 But Jesus called them and said, Allow the little children to come to Me, and forbid them not. For of such is the kingdom of God.

But we don’t know how the little children come to him, that is the point. Nor do we know how a Muslim, living in Saudi Arabia and with no access to Christian teaching, might nonetheless come to him.