Jesus is the son of God

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Where? Is this in Scripture? I’ve never heard of a passage in which God calls Himself a chicken.

Yes, of course. His actions on the Cross atoned for our sins. But the fact that He freed the righteous souls in Purgatory is a dogma of the Church. Are you implying that you don’t believe in it?
I did not say that God called Himself a chicken, I said that God referred to Himself as a hen, which is feminine, and I believe that it is in the psalms somewhere.

I wrote what I wrote, maybe you should read it again, I said that this is not the extent of what Jesus did and went thru concerning God-Incarnate’s “work” on the cross.

If, as it says, “Jesus paid the ransom” than Jesus paid the ransom, you don’t have to believe what is so clearly said but that doesn’t make it not clearly said.
 
Yes, God is transcendent, but He has revealed Himself to us as masculine.
No God hasn’t, God-Incarnate has revealed Himself to us as a Man.

God Is a Trinity and neither God the Father nor the Holy Spirit is or has been Incarnated.

As I said before, when God speaks to us with human language that doesn’t mean that it is always literal since human language has its limitations, especially concerning God.
 
I did not say that God called Himself a chicken, I said that God referred to Himself as a hen, which is feminine, and I believe that it is in the psalms somewhere.
Are you referring to Luke 13:34? There, Christ compares what he wants to do with Jerusalem to what a hen does to her chicks. He doesn’t compare Himself to a hen at all.
I wrote what I wrote, maybe you should read it again, I said that this is not the extent of what Jesus did and went thru concerning God-Incarnate’s “work” on the cross.
OK, what else did He do besides atone for our sins and open the Gates of Heaven? I’m really lost as to what you’re trying to say here.
If, as it says, “Jesus paid the ransom” than Jesus paid the ransom, you don’t have to believe what is so clearly said but that doesn’t make it not clearly said.
Of course I believe Christ atoned for our sins by His Sacrifice on the Cross! When did I ever suggest anything to the contrary?
 
Eusibius in Church History Book 1 quoted Africanus explaining the discrepancies of Jesus genealogy.

2. For whereas the names of the generations were reckoned in Israel either according to nature or according to law—according to nature by the succession of legitimate offspring, and according to law whenever another raised up a child to the name of a brother dying childless; for because a clear hope of resurrection was not yet given they had a representation of the future promise by a kind of mortal resurrection, in order that the name of the one deceased might be perpetuated—
3. whereas then some of those who are inserted in this genealogical table succeeded by natural descent, the son to the father, while others, though born of one father, were ascribed by name to another, mention was made of both of those who were progenitors in fact and of those who were so only in name.
4. Thus neither of the gospels is in error, for one reckons by nature, the other by law. For the line of descent from Solomon and that from Nathan were so involved, the one with the other, by the raising up of children to the childless and by second marriages, that the same persons are justly considered to belong at one time to one, at another time to another; that is, at one time to the reputed fathers, at another to the actual fathers. So that both these accounts are strictly true and come down to Joseph with considerable intricacy indeed, yet quite accurately.
5. But in order that what I have said may be made clear I shall explain the interchange of the generations. If we reckon the generations from David through Solomon, the third from the end is found to be Matthan, who begot Jacob the father of Joseph. But if, with Luke, we reckon them from Nathan the son of David, in like manner the third from the end is Melchi, whose son Eli was the father of Joseph. For Joseph was the son of Eli, the son of Melchi.
6. Joseph therefore being the object proposed to us, it must be shown how it is that each is recorded to be his father, both Jacob, who derived his descent from Solomon, and Eli, who derived his from Nathan; first how it is that these two, Jacob and Eli, were brothers, and then how it is that their fathers, Matthan and Melchi, although of different families, are declared to be grandfathers of Joseph.
7. Matthan and Melchi having married in succession the same woman, begot children who were uterine brothers, for the law did not prohibit a widow, whether such by divorce or by the death of her husband, from marrying another.
8. By Estha then (for this was the woman’s name according to tradition) Matthan, a descendant of Solomon, first begot Jacob. And when Matthan was dead, Melchi, who traced his descent back to Nathan, being of the same tribe but of another family, married her as before said, and begot a son Eli.
9. Thus we shall find the two, Jacob and Eli, although belonging to different families, yet brethren by the same mother. Of these the one, Jacob, when his brother Eli had died childless, took the latter’s wife and begot by her a son Joseph, his own son by nature and in accordance with reason. Wherefore also it is written: ‘Jacob begot Joseph.’ Ma tthe w 1:6 But according to law he was the son of Eli, for Jacob, being the brother of the latter, raised up seed to him.

*
17. Thus far Africanus. And the lineage of Joseph being thus traced, Mary also is virtually shown to be of the same tribe with him, since, according to the law of Moses, intermarriages between different tribes were not permitted. For the command is to marry one of the same family and lineage, so that the inheritance may not pass from tribe to tribe. This may suffice here.*

To sum it up, Matthew showed the genealogy according to Nature and Luke by Law. Mary is in the same tribe since according to the law of Moses intermarriages between tribes were prohibited.
Just jumping in here. Does that mean the prophesy that Jesus came from the line of David is true or false?
 
No God hasn’t, God-Incarnate has revealed Himself to us as a Man.

God Is a Trinity and neither God the Father nor the Holy Spirit is or has been Incarnated.

As I said before, when God speaks to us with human language that doesn’t mean that it is always literal since human language has its limitations, especially concerning God.
There’s a way to express the fact that an entity lacks a gender. If God wished us to refer to Him neutrally, or femininely, He could have divinely inspired someone to write that He was gender-less or female. Yet, He never does this. Hmmm…
 
Are you referring to Luke 13:34? There, Christ compares what he wants to do with Jerusalem to what a hen does to her chicks. He doesn’t compare Himself to a hen at all.

OK, what else did He do besides atone for our sins and open the Gates of Heaven? I’m really lost as to what you’re trying to say here.

Of course I believe Christ atoned for our sins by His Sacrifice on the Cross! When did I ever suggest anything to the contrary?
I said quite clearly that Jesus went to hell, everyone’s hell, and that is how He “paid the ransom”.

If one were to wake up in hell, so to speak, they will come to the realization that they built it themself and that they put themself there.

Jesus went to hell, one day all will come to the realization that God did more in the Incarnation and everything that the Incarnation involves than most even think God capable of doing.

Guess one could say that Jesus opened the gates of heaven and won the keys to the gates of the netherworld, hell and death (physical and spiritual), and will use these keys in due time, God’s Time.
 
I said quite clearly that Jesus went to hell, everyone’s hell, and that is how He “paid the ransom”.
Christ did NOT experience the tortures of Hell, if that’s what you mean. That’s heresy. The “descending into hell” clause of the Creed refers to his freeing of the righteous in Purgatory (cf. 1 Peter 3:19).
Guess one could say that Jesus opened the gates of heaven and won the keys to the gates of the netherworld, hell and death (physical and spiritual), and will use these keys in due time, God’s Time.
You guess? It’s a solemn and infallible dogma. .
 
Hello Tom. It’s me, Glenda.
I did not say that God called Himself a chicken, I said that God referred to Himself as a hen, which is feminine, and I believe that it is in the psalms somewhere.

I wrote what I wrote, maybe you should read it again, I said that this is not the extent of what Jesus did and went thru concerning God-Incarnate’s “work” on the cross.

If, as it says, “Jesus paid the ransom” than Jesus paid the ransom, you don’t have to believe what is so clearly said but that doesn’t make it not clearly said.
What God actually said is that He’d like to gather us as a hen her chicks. It refers to unity. He wasn’t dismissing His manhood as you suggest. He was after all standing there in the flesh of a Man, Jesus. He had no intention to wish Himself a woman at that time. You’re pushing the envelope.

Glenda

P.S. Do you perhaps have a few feminists in your life you’re gaining ground with? Just curious.
 
Just jumping in here. Does that mean the prophesy that Jesus came from the line of David is true or false?
From what I can gather, Matthew’s genealogy if true will not permit Jesus to sit on David’s throne due to the Jeconiah curse. Anyway, Jesus is not Joseph’s true son, and he wasn’t adopted either so the lineage isn’t there. But a valid argument can be made that raising another child as your own qualifies Jesus to be his legal son but even so, the Jeconiah curse stands in the way.

However, Luke’s genealogy is valid. (Another source claims this is the lineage via Mary) For whatever it is worth, anti-Jesus Jews would have done the screening to try to discredit this Christian movement and nip it in the bud so to speak. Don’t have to wait 2000 yrs.
 
From what I can gather, Matthew’s genealogy if true will not permit Jesus to sit on David’s throne due to the Jeconiah curse. Anyway, Jesus is not Joseph’s true son, and he wasn’t adopted either so the lineage isn’t there. But a valid argument can be made that raising another child as your own qualifies Jesus to be his legal son but even so, the Jeconiah curse stands in the way.

However, Luke’s genealogy is valid. (Another source claims this is the lineage via Mary) For whatever it is worth, anti-Jesus Jews would have done the screening to try to discredit this Christian movement and nip it in the bud so to speak. Don’t have to wait 2000 yrs.
Who says Jesus wasn’t adopted by Joseph? If he wasn’t, why bother recounting Joseph’s lineage at all? And if the lineage is an invalid one, again why bother recounting it?

Remember Joseph went to all the trouble of taking a heavily pregnant Mary to Bethlehem with him for purposes of the Roman census. Perhaps the babe was recorded as his son on the census (ie adopted) at that time.
 
Who says Jesus wasn’t adopted by Joseph? If he wasn’t, why bother recounting Joseph’s lineage at all? And if the lineage is an invalid one, again why bother recounting it?

Remember Joseph went to all the trouble of taking a heavily pregnant Mary to Bethlehem with him for purposes of the Roman census. Perhaps the babe was recorded as his son on the census (ie adopted) at that time.
Archeological research can find noting to support this last sentence. According to the latest research, a woman in the last month of her pregnancy to ride on a donkey 90 miles just for census would probably have resulted in her death and/or Jesus death. Interested people can refer to the following:

biblearchaeology.org/post/2014/01/13/Biblical-Archaeology-in-2013.aspx
 
Archeological research can find noting to support this last sentence. According to the latest research, a woman in the last month of her pregnancy to ride on a donkey 90 miles just for census would probably have resulted in her death and/or Jesus death. Interested people can refer to the following:

biblearchaeology.org/post/2014/01/13/Biblical-Archaeology-in-2013.aspx
One would think you’ve never heard of (or perhaps believe in) the power of God; and/or that He intervenes and exercises that power in human history for His purposes.

(BTW, how die “latest research” conduct that test/research?!? to get their empirical data.)
 
Originally Posted by nmgauss
Archeological research can find noting to support this last sentence. According to the latest research, a woman in the last month of her pregnancy to ride on a donkey 90 miles just for census would probably have resulted in her death and/or Jesus death. Interested people can refer to the following:
I went back and read your previous posts and see you say you are not a Christian; you classify yourself as a secular humanist (Post #19). You don’t clarify however your belief in regards to the existence of God. If you don’t believe in a Theistic God, it makes it very difficult to discuss the virgin birth, since a basic premise for Christians is that it was a supernatural conception brought about by God. Period.
 
I went back and read your previous posts and see you say you are not a Christian; you classify yourself as a secular humanist (Post #19). You don’t clarify however your belief in regards to the existence of God. If you don’t believe in a Theistic God, it makes it very difficult to discuss the virgin birth, since a basic premise for Christians is that it was a supernatural conception brought about by God. Period.
I am a scientist instead of a theist. I am on the side of Darwin. As a consequence, evidence and probabilistic evaluation of supposed events carries a lot of weight in my thinking. To trust unverifiable and inaccurate scripture just because an authority says it is true, even though different accounts of the same event may be found in the scriptures tends to make me into a skeptic of the writings.

There is a plethora of evidence to support that King Herod did amazing things. There is also lots of evidence to document the influence that St. Paul had on Christianity. But to have third person accounts of supposed events is always suspect.
 
I am a scientist instead of a theist. I am on the side of Darwin. As a consequence, evidence and probabilistic evaluation of supposed events carries a lot of weight in my thinking. To trust unverifiable and inaccurate scripture just because an authority says it is true, even though different accounts of the same event may be found in the scriptures tends to make me into a skeptic of the writings.

There is a plethora of evidence to support that King Herod did amazing things. There is also lots of evidence to document the influence that St. Paul had on Christianity. But to have third person accounts of supposed events is always suspect.
If you are really a scientist, and believe in convincing arguments from probability, then you should try reading “Analogy of Religion” by Anglican Bishop Butler (1730’s). He makes an unassailable argument (analogy) from nature to the probability of religion. It is quite a logical book, with very clear thinking. It is still in print. The very fact that you post on this forum, leads one to suppose you may have hidden depths. 😉
 
If you are really a scientist, and believe in convincing arguments from probability, then you should try reading “Analogy of Religion” by Anglican Bishop Butler (1730’s). He makes an unassailable argument (analogy) from nature to the probability of religion. It is quite a logical book, with very clear thinking. It is still in print. The very fact that you post on this forum, leads one to suppose you may have hidden depths. 😉
Bishop Butler did not have the advantage of research results by Alfred Wallace and Charles Darwin. His arguments are quite good at concluding that life shows the hand of a master designer. However, he had little evidence of the failures and successes of the various designs that had been tried. The fossil record shows many failures. If these are failures, why were they allowed to happen?

According to Scripture, even God admitted that the results of His first designs of life were failures, and exterminated all life except for fertile pairs. So even God was not perfect.

That is what the fossil record shows. Countless species of life in the waters and on land are now extinct. Why?
 
The catechism can be very helpful in these differences of opinion ;):
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm
The Father revealed by the Son
238 Many religions invoke God as “Father”. The deity is often considered the “father of gods and of men”. In Israel, God is called “Father” inasmuch as he is Creator of the world.59 Even more, God is Father because of the covenant and the gift of the law to Israel, “his first-born son”.60 God is also called the Father of the king of Israel. Most especially he is “the Father of the poor”, of the orphaned and the widowed, who are under his loving protection.61
239 By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood,62 which emphasizes God’s immanence, the intimacy between Creator and creature. The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents, who are in a way the first representatives of God for man. But this experience also tells us that human parents are fallible and can disfigure the face of fatherhood and motherhood. We ought therefore to recall that God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: he is God. He also transcends human fatherhood and motherhood, although he is their origin and standard:63 no one is father as God is Father.
240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."64
 
Who says Jesus wasn’t adopted by Joseph? If he wasn’t, why bother recounting Joseph’s lineage at all? And if the lineage is an invalid one, again why bother recounting it?

Remember Joseph went to all the trouble of taking a heavily pregnant Mary to Bethlehem with him for purposes of the Roman census. Perhaps the babe was recorded as his son on the census (ie adopted) at that time.
There is nothing written or hinted that Joseph went to the Jewish authorities to notify them that he had a son that he didn’t fathered and that this son dropped from the sky. He continued his marriage with Mary and that was that. If you have sources that indicated that he reported this son that he didn’t fathered, please share your resource. In the census, if he indicated biological father unknown, yes, you may have a case of adoption. Throughout the 4 Gospels, you don’t hear of Jesus of being an adopted child of Joseph. If he had, then Mary will be guilty of adultery and will be stoned to death. Joseph initially was trying to think of a way out for Mary by quietly divorcing her until told not to by an angel.
 
There is nothing written or hinted that Joseph went to the Jewish authorities to notify them that he had a son that he didn’t fathered and that this son dropped from the sky. He continued his marriage with Mary and that was that. If you have sources that indicated that he reported this son that he didn’t fathered, please share your resource. In the census, if he indicated biological father unknown, yes, you may have a case of adoption. Throughout the 4 Gospels, you don’t hear of Jesus of being an adopted child of Joseph. If he had, then Mary will be guilty of adultery and will be stoned to death. Joseph initially was trying to think of a way out for Mary by quietly divorcing her until told not to by an angel.
There are three commonly held beliefs about what constitutes a marriage in the eyes of God:
1.The couple is married in the eyes of God when the physical union is consummated through sexual intercourse.
2.The couple is married in the eyes of God when the couple is legally married.
3.The couple is married in the eyes of God after they have participated in a formal religious wedding ceremony.

Here is how the birth of Yeshua the Messiah took place. When his mother Miryam was engaged to Yosef, before they were married, she was found to be pregnant from the Ruach HaKodesh. 19 Her husband-to-be, Yosef, was a man who did what was right; so he made plans to break the engagement quietly, rather than put her to public shame. 20 But while he was thinking about this, an angel of Adonai appeared to him in a dream and said, “Yosef, son of David, do not be afraid to take Miryam home with you as your wife; for what has been conceived in her is from the Ruach HaKodesh. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to name him Yeshua, [which means ‘Adonai saves,’] because he will save his people from their sins.”

Did Joseph and Mary do any of these?
 
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