Jesus just a prophet?

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when religions such as islam speak of Jesus as just being a prophet, i was wondering how they come to that conclusion in a historical since. meaning is it that they believe that Jesus (the historical man) wasnt crucified b/c of His and others proclaimation that he was the Son of God, the Messiah. or is it that He and others just really didnt proclaim that? were they just misunderstood?
do they believe that it really wasnt part of Jesus’ ministry that He Himself was forgiving sins? or is that everyone just misunderstood what He was doing and preaching about including his own apostles who He chose to spread his teachings and the revealed truth of who He is and who God is? did He not really have apostles?
 
Peace be with you!

Muhammad told them all of that, so they believe it. I don’t mean to sound rude to any of our Muslim members, but that’s basically the case. They have no other basis for believing that Jesus was simply a prophet and not the Son of God than it says he was just a prophet in the Qur’an.

In Christ,
Rand
 
Study of the NT doesn’t allow for the belief that Jesus was just a prophet. Look at Christ claims to diety. I think it was CS Lewis who said you only have 3 choices. Jesus is a diabolical liar, a lunitic, or Lord. He claims only allow for those choices.
 
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smelton:
Study of the NT doesn’t allow for the belief that Jesus was just a prophet. Look at Christ claims to diety. I think it was CS Lewis who said you only have 3 choices. Jesus is a diabolical liar, a lunitic, or Lord. He claims only allow for those choices.
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And how do the Jews view Jesus?
 
I’d suspect you’d need to ask a Jewish person about that. If I were jewish, which I’m not, I would say he was either a lunitic or a liar. I think that if you don’t believe he was the messiah then those are your options.
 
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smelton:
I’d suspect you’d need to ask a Jewish person about that. If I were jewish, which I’m not, I would say he was either a lunitic or a liar. I think that if you don’t believe he was the messiah then those are your options.
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Mr Lewis’ basic foundation is wrong…because he believes that Jesus clearly said that he was God, which Jesus didnt.

Muslims believe that Jesus, like Moses and Abraham and Mohamed, called people to the worship of the one God.

The fact that the Children of Israel tried to harm him doesnt make him special, as they have tried to harm (and killed) many prophets before him, who all said the same thing: know that your Lord is one.
 
Mr Lewis’ basic foundation is wrong…because he believes that Jesus clearly said that he was God, which Jesus didnt.
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and;
The fact that the Children of Israel tried to harm him doesnt make him special, as they have tried to harm (and killed) many prophets before him, who all said the same thing: know that your Lord is one.
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I think before this gets into a tit-for-tat I can see that Faith101 is Muslim, correct? Since you believe what you believe, you won’t believe what I believe. So therefore, before anyone makes claims of what Jesus, or Muhammed, did and did not say…let’s all have our ducks in a row before we make definative statements such as the ones above.

If you want to whip out the Qu’ran, I’ll grab the Word and we’ll discuss it like adults… Civil discourse (thanks Quatsch) is what makes for, and is accepted as, just that, civility.

I welcome the discussion.

Humbly, In Christ,
Scotchamoe
 
“He didn’t say it clearly enough.”

Other than the fact that Mohammed told them otherwise, I guess this is the second-most-used “challenge” to Jesus’ divinity they will try to put up. You’ll find most arguments Muslims raise for a number of things tend to be pretty subjective like this.
 
How interesting would this discussion become if everyone had to lay down their sacred books and argue without them?

Mormons - no BOM, no POGP, no D&C & no KJV
JWS - no WT material & no NWT
Jews - no Pentach, no Talmud
Muslims - no Koran
Christians - no Bible
Now, let’s come to the table.
I have the writings of Flavius Josephus, and all the early Church fathers.
What have you got?
 
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catsrus:
How interesting would this discussion become if everyone had to lay down their sacred books and argue without them?

Mormons - no BOM, no POGP, no D&C & no KJV
JWS - no WT material & no NWT
Jews - no Pentach, no Talmud
Muslims - no Koran
Christians - no Bible
Now, let’s come to the table.
I have the writings of Flavius Josephus, and all the early Church fathers.
What have you got?
Click to expand...
I’ve always thought that too.
 
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catsrus:
How interesting would this discussion become if everyone had to lay down their sacred books and argue without them?

Mormons - no BOM, no POGP, no D&C & no KJV
JWS - no WT material & no NWT
Jews - no Pentach, no Talmud
Muslims - no Koran
Christians - no Bible
Now, let’s come to the table.
I have the writings of Flavius Josephus, and all the early Church fathers.
What have you got?
Click to expand...
Peace be with you!

:amen:
I agree…that would be interesting. I wish I could listen to a debate like that.

In Christ,
Rand
 
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Scotchamoe:
and;

I think before this gets into a tit-for-tat I can see that Faith101 is Muslim, correct? Since you believe what you believe, you won’t believe what I believe. So therefore, before anyone makes claims of what Jesus, or Muhammed, did and did not say…let’s all have our ducks in a row before we make definative statements such as the ones above.

If you want to whip out the Qu’ran, I’ll grab the Word and we’ll discuss it like adults… Civil discourse (thanks Quatsch) is what makes for, and is accepted as, just that, civility.

I welcome the discussion.

Humbly, In Christ,
Scotchamoe
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Peace Scotchamoe,

I fully understand that we all have different beliefs, but I was specifically addressing the comment that lewis made that either one would believe that Jesus is a liar or a lunatic or Lord. He is making the assumption that Jesus said that he was God…which is not something that is fact. That’s all 🙂
 
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catsrus:
How interesting would this discussion become if everyone had to lay down their sacred books and argue without them?

Mormons - no BOM, no POGP, no D&C & no KJV
JWS - no WT material & no NWT
Jews - no Pentach, no Talmud
Muslims - no Koran
Christians - no Bible
Now, let’s come to the table.
I have the writings of Flavius Josephus, and all the early Church fathers.
What have you got?
Click to expand...
Although I find it surprising that we would leave the scriptures that we believe to have come from God (christians leaving bible, muslims leaving quran) and depend on the works of men…I googled Flavius Josephus to read some of his writings. Is this a good site to get that from?

earlychristianwritings.com/text/josephus/ant-1.htm
 
someone said it wasnt fact that Jesus said he was God. what do you believe is fact about Jesus? meaning why does one believe he is a prophet at all. where does your historical source come from outside of any religious book that indicates that he wasnt preaching the way christians seem to think he was. so the christian bible and koran aside. can we look at historical records of the early christian persecutions by the romans as a reliable source as to what was going on?
what about the apostles? is there any evidence of the apostles outside of just the bible? i bring up the apostles b/c it seems to me if yes, Jesus did choose apostles to spread his preaching, then wouldnt at least one of them get it right as to who Jesus was and what he was talking about? and yet they all seem to say and die for the same thing, that Jeus was the Son of God.
are records of the apostles martyrdom and in fact them leading others into martyrdom (the early christian persecutions) all false history?
these apostles at least were either liars, lunatics, diabolical, or speaking the truth. or did the apostles successors misunderstand as well?
 
Faith101 that’s a decent site, also you might try reading the early fathers (it’s way worth reading) as they were contemporaries of the apostles who knew Christ. The acts of the apostles and some of the early fathers writings overlap. The gospels are authentic as well as the fathers writings and all merely testify to the truth of what happened. Our tradition (handed down observed first hand truth) is equally important as our book, if we don’t have the bible we still have eyewitness account passed down. This is why the early fathers are so vital, they merge with the gospels and acts of the apostles. A seemless garment of truth. Seek and you shall find.

peace
 
i know its hard to tell someones tone when reading a post but im not trying to be sarcastic or a jerk if it appears that way. im seriously asking the questions i ask. i have no clue what other religions say to this.
 
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spotty:
i know its hard to tell someones tone when reading a post but im not trying to be sarcastic or a jerk if it appears that way. im seriously asking the questions i ask. i have no clue what other religions say to this.
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When I was in the anglican church I decided not to think like an anglican for awhile and to look seriously at the claims and beliefs of catholics. A willingness to do this allowed me to serioulsy check it out and I was led into the catholic church. The problem is not the question, its the willingness to find out the answer. We don’t think much anymore…challenge ourselves. We tend to be happy (different than joy) with where we are and are afraid of what others might think or do. Jesus said what he said and the martyrs died because they knew him to be God.

peace
 
Neither did Jesus say, " Cut it out will yah!!! I told you many,many times not to worship me and equate me with God! Read my lips, I AM NOT, I REPEAT, I AM NOT GOD! "

The Quran offers us a glimpse of what Christians believed at the time of Mohammad, and I guess these could have been in their Scripture at that time:

When Mohammad taught, “No! They didn’t crucify Him” he (Mohammad) must have heard Christians saying, “Jesus was crucified! He’s risen” 😃

When Mohammad taught “No! He was just an ordinary Prophet, not the Son of God”, he (Mohammad) could have heard Christians calling Him God.

When Mohammad taught, “God is ONE and NOT 3 Persons” he (Mohammad could have heard from Christians about God’s attribute!

Now who’s more reliable, the Christians with their Books or Mohammad who came 570 years later to refute what’s in the Christian Books? 😃
 
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Faith101:
Peace Scotchamoe,

I fully understand that we all have different beliefs, but I was specifically addressing the comment that lewis made that either one would believe that Jesus is a liar or a lunatic or Lord. He is making the assumption that Jesus said that he was God…which is not something that is fact. That’s all 🙂
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He claimed it with His actions. That’s all 🙂

Luke 7

46: My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
47: Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
48: And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49: And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50: And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Only God can forgive sins, either Jesus was committing blasphemy here, or He really had the power to forgive sins. The pharisees chose to believe that He was committing blasphemy, because they knew only God can forgive sins.
 
QUOTE=Faith101]Mr Lewis’ basic foundation is wrong…because he believes that Jesus clearly said that he was God, which Jesus didnt.

Muslims believe that Jesus, like Moses and Abraham and Mohamed, called people to the worship of the one God.

The fact that the Children of Israel tried to harm him doesnt make him special, as they have tried to harm (and killed) many prophets before him, who all said the same thing: know that your Lord is one.

Just some scriptures to back up CS Lewis’s statement. They will take some study on your part if you are truely interested in the what Jesus did claim. If you are just arguing then I suspect you won’t study them but here they are anyway.
John 3:13-21
John 4:13-14
John 5:23-27
John 6:40
John 6:53
John 6:62
John 7:37
John 8:14-18
Matt 26:64
Matt 28:18

These are just a sampling of what is in the Bible. They all indicate Christ claim on diety. You have to study what they mean not make them mean what fits your comfort of your belief. I think, if you study them, you will find that CS Lewis was not wrong. I would love to discuss christianity without the bible. One word - resurection.
 
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