"Jesus Lived in India" - Holger Kersten

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

paarsurrey,

There are problems with Holger Kersten’s proposition in your post.

1. Nicholas Notovich actually said in the preface of his work that the manuscript in the Himis monastery was the story of Jesus told to the monks by travellers. Thus, ruling out the later invention that Jesus actually went to Himis.

Notovich then invented the Gospel of St Issa - which tend miraculously found its way to the monastery.

truthbeknown.com/jesus_in_india.htm
Notovitch claimed that Indian merchants brought the account of “Jesus” to Himis, and that they had actually witnessed the crucifixion. Indeed, the text begins with “This is what is related on this subject by the merchants who come from Israel,” reflecting not that “Jesus” lived in India but that the Jesus tradition was brought to India and Tibet. (Notovitch, 32) Notovitch’s text also did not state that Jesus was specifically at Himis: In fact, the lama stated that the Issa scrolls “were brought from India to Nepal, and from Nepal to Thibet.” Yet, upon returning to Himis through later visitors, the story eventually became morphed into “Your Jesus was here,” meaning at Himis itself. The “one book” or “two manuscripts” became “three books,” which were displayed for the later visitors, with the implication that there was more to the tale.

1. The acts of Thomas is an apocrypha written in the 3rd century.
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Thomas
2. Until we see the exact passage in the Acts of Thomas we cannot judge.

 

[inJESUS]

 

[kellie]

Hi

Do you think if the Catholic had been in small numbers then their stance would have been false, and the onus of proof would have been on them? Now that they are in large numbers so they must be considered infallible.

In the time of Jesus, Jews were in great numbers at least larger than the Christians. Does that make the stance of Jews reasonable? No, it is not reasonable. Since Catholic stance is weird, they have to prove their weird stance undoubtedly.

I don’t say that Latter Day Saints stance should be rejected summarily that Jesus went to South America as you say. To me, their stance is stronger and natural as they say that Jesus remained on this globe than of the Catholics who say he ascended to skies, a weird stance that would be.

I don’t have to check the efficiency or otherwise of the executions of the Roman Umpire, after all they were human beings, so they could make mistakes. There are instances quoted of humans surviving the Roman executions on Crosses for a longer period than Jesus remained on Cross for a few hours only.

In fact since Jesus had himself predicted his survival being a Prophet, the more the efficiency of the Romans, the more it makes possible as God helped his survival.

Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus did not die on Cross” - rather Jesus was not killed on Cross and later died naturally is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.

Just because you find it hard to fathom that Jesus went to Heaven, does not mean it did not happen.

This is why you are following a man, Imam Mahdi, who along with you could not fathom the wonder of Jesus being lifted to the skies.

Why do you keep trying to push this rubbish on to us. We arent changing.

Go on and live peacefully with your own beliefs and we will pray for you

 

[paarsurrey]

Just because you find it hard to fathom that Jesus went to Heaven, does not mean it did not happen.

This is why you are following a man, Imam Mahdi, who along with you could not fathom the wonder of Jesus being lifted to the skies.

Why do you keep trying to push this rubbish on to us. We arent changing.

Go on and live peacefully with your own beliefs and we will pray for you

Hi

Hello Kellie!

Where had you been, after so many days.

Thanks

Well this is what I do understand with reasons; my Catholic friends need not convert to my view point, they must remain stuck to their guns, but they are peaceful people like me, no need doing such a thing. Just be a rational, reasonable, logical, and research oriented human being, and stead fast on the true faith that is what is required.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

I submit here next passage from the summary of Holger Kersten’s work “Jesus Lived in India”:

In tracing Christ’s movements to India and beyond, Kersten also discovered that many of his teachings, which have been gradually edited out of the modern Bible were originally Eastern in nature. Principles such as karma and re-incarnation, for example, were common knowledge then, and seem to have been reaffirmed by Christ.

Imagine the implications that this discovery holds for Western Christianity and its churches, who have kept Christ in their doctrinal top pockets and have constrained the entire Western culture within the narrow teachings of blind faith, organised religion and original sin!

Further clues are cited from The Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, and the Gospel of Thomas which are of Syrian origin and have been dated to the 4th Century AD, or possibly earlier. They are Gnostic Scriptures and despite the evidence indicating their authenticity, they are not given credence by mainstream theologians. In these texts Thomas tells of Christ’s appearance in Andrapolis, Paphlagonia (today known as in the extreme north of Anatolia) as a guest of the King of Andrappa.

There he met with Thomas who had arrived separately. It is at Andrapolis that Christ entreated Thomas to go to India to begin spreading his teachings. It seems that Christ and Mary then moved along the West coast of Turkey, proof of this could be an old stopping place for travellers called the “Home of Mary”, found along the ancient silk route. From here Christ could easily have entered Europe via France. He may have even travelled as far as the British Isles, for in England there is an ancient oak tree called the “Hallowed Tree” which (says local legend) was planted by Christ himself.

In his travels through Persia (today’s Iran) Christ became known as Yuz Asaf (leader of the Healed). We know this because a Kashmiri historical document confirms that Isa (the Koranic name for Christ) was in fact also known as Yuz Asaf. The Jami - uf - Tamarik, Volume II, tells that Yuz Asaf visited Masslige, where he attended the grave of Shem, Noah’s son.

There are various other accounts such as Agha Mustafa’s “Awhali Shahaii-i-paras” that tell of Yuz Asaf’s travels and teachings all over Persia. It seems that Yuz Asaf blessed Afghanistan and Pakistan with his presence also. There are for example two plains in Eastern Afghanistan near Gazni and Galalabad, bearing the name of the prophet Yuz Asaf.

Again in the Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, Thomas says that he and Christ attended the Court of King Gundafor of Taxila (now Pakistan), in about 47AD, and that eventually both the King and his brother accepted Christ’s teachings. Kersten claims that there are more than twenty one historical documents that bear witness to the existence of Jesus in Kashmir, where he was known also as Yuz Asaf and Issa. For example the Bhavishyat Mahapurana (volume 9 verses 17-32) contains an account of Issa-Masih (Jesus the Messiah). It describes Christ’s arrival in the Kashmir region of India and his encounter with King Shalivahana, who ruled the Kushan area (39-50AD), and who entertained Christ as a guest for some time.

{Christ’s life in India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church teachings at their very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major influence on modern Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of this discovery.|

The historian Mullah Nadini (1413) also recounts a story of Yuz Asaf who was a contemporary to King Gopadatta, and confirms that he also used the name Issar, ie. Jesus. There is also much historical truth in the towns and villages of Northern India to prove that Jesus and his mother Mary spent time in the area.

For instance, at the border of a small town called Mari, there is nearby a mountain called Pindi Point, upon which is an old tomb called Mai Mari da Asthan or “The final resting place of Mary”. The tomb is said to be very old and local Muslims venerate it as the grave of Issa’s (ie Christ’s) Mother. The tomb itself is oriented East-West consistent with the Jewish tradition, despite the fact it is within a Muslim area. Assuming its antiquity, such a tomb could not be Hindu either since the Hindus contemporary to Christ cremated their dead and scattered their ashes as do Hindus today. "
Unquote

Thanks

The first and primary source on “Jesus was not killed on Cross” – but Jesus later died naturally in Kashmir, in India is the pristine Word of God revealed on the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi 1835-1908.
The Word of GodAllahYHWH is and had been the first/authentic and primary source of human knowledge whether revealed on Moses/Buddha/Jesus/Muhammad or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad; it is of itself a complete and without doubt and it requires no external witnessing.

 

[JFonseka]

Hi

I submit here next passage from the summary of Holger Kersten’s work “Jesus Lived in India”:

**In tracing Christ’s movements to India and beyond, Kersten also discovered that many of his teachings, which have been gradually edited out of the modern Bible were originally Eastern in nature. Principles such as karma and re-incarnation, for example, were common knowledge then, and seem to have been reaffirmed by Christ.
**
Imagine the implications that this discovery holds for Western Christianity and its churches, who have kept Christ in their doctrinal top pockets and have constrained the entire Western culture within the narrow teachings of blind faith, organised religion and original sin!

Further clues are cited from The Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, and the Gospel of Thomas which are of Syrian origin and have been dated to the 4th Century AD, or possibly earlier. They are Gnostic Scriptures and despite the evidence indicating their authenticity, they are not given credence by mainstream theologians. In these texts Thomas tells of Christ’s appearance in Andrapolis, Paphlagonia (today known as in the extreme north of Anatolia) as a guest of the King of Andrappa.

There he met with Thomas who had arrived separately. It is at Andrapolis that Christ entreated Thomas to go to India to begin spreading his teachings. It seems that Christ and Mary then moved along the West coast of Turkey, proof of this could be an old stopping place for travellers called the “Home of Mary”, found along the ancient silk route. From here Christ could easily have entered Europe via France. He may have even travelled as far as the British Isles, for in England there is an ancient oak tree called the “Hallowed Tree” which (says local legend) was planted by Christ himself.

In his travels through Persia (today’s Iran) Christ became known as Yuz Asaf (leader of the Healed). We know this because a Kashmiri historical document confirms that Isa (the Koranic name for Christ) was in fact also known as Yuz Asaf. The Jami - uf - Tamarik, Volume II, tells that Yuz Asaf visited Masslige, where he attended the grave of Shem, Noah’s son.

There are various other accounts such as Agha Mustafa’s “Awhali Shahaii-i-paras” that tell of Yuz Asaf’s travels and teachings all over Persia. It seems that Yuz Asaf blessed Afghanistan and Pakistan with his presence also. There are for example two plains in Eastern Afghanistan near Gazni and Galalabad, bearing the name of the prophet Yuz Asaf.

Again in the Apocryphal Acts of Thomas, Thomas says that he and Christ attended the Court of King Gundafor of Taxila (now Pakistan), in about 47AD, and that eventually both the King and his brother accepted Christ’s teachings. Kersten claims that there are more than twenty one historical documents that bear witness to the existence of Jesus in Kashmir, where he was known also as Yuz Asaf and Issa. For example the Bhavishyat Mahapurana (volume 9 verses 17-32) contains an account of Issa-Masih (Jesus the Messiah). It describes Christ’s arrival in the Kashmir region of India and his encounter with King Shalivahana, who ruled the Kushan area (39-50AD), and who entertained Christ as a guest for some time.

{Christ’s life in India, after the crucifixion, challenges current Church teachings at their very foundation. The theology of Saint Paul, the major influence on modern Christianity, is empty fanaticism in the light of this discovery.|

The historian Mullah Nadini (1413) also recounts a story of Yuz Asaf who was a contemporary to King Gopadatta, and confirms that he also used the name Issar, ie. Jesus. There is also much historical truth in the towns and villages of Northern India to prove that Jesus and his mother Mary spent time in the area.

For instance, at the border of a small town called Mari, there is nearby a mountain called Pindi Point, upon which is an old tomb called Mai Mari da Asthan or “The final resting place of Mary”. The tomb is said to be very old and local Muslims venerate it as the grave of Issa’s (ie Christ’s) Mother. The tomb itself is oriented East-West consistent with the Jewish tradition, despite the fact it is within a Muslim area. Assuming its antiquity, such a tomb could not be Hindu either since the Hindus contemporary to Christ cremated their dead and scattered their ashes as do Hindus today. "
Unquote

Thanks

Hogwash, then he certainly couldn’t have been a prophet of islam and contradicts the quran as well as the Bible then. Since you like to believe the book by holger, this either renders islam as false or the book as false. Those principles which you refer to are hindu not islamic or christian.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

There is a reason why the Acts of Thomas is apocryphal. It is clearly fantastic. In this apocryphal, Jesus appears in what appears to be a dream sequence and an allegory.

*The First Act, when he went into India with Abbanes the merchant.

At that season all we the apostles were at Jerusalem, Simon which is called Peter and Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Canaanite, and Judas the brother of James: and we divided the regions of the world, that every one of us should go unto the region that fell to him and unto the nation whereunto the Lord sent him.

According to the lot, therefore, India fell unto Judas Thomas, which is also the twin: but he would not go, saying that by reason of the weakness of the flesh he could not travel, and ‘I am an Hebrew man; how can I go amongst the Indians and preach the truth?’ And as he thus reasoned and spake, the Saviour appeared unto him by night and saith to him: Fear not, Thomas, go thou unto India and preach the word there, for my grace is with thee. But he would not obey, saying: Whither thou wouldest send me, send me, but elsewhere, for unto the Indians I will not go.

2 And while he thus spake and thought, it chanced that there was there a certain merchant come from India whose name was Abbanes, sent from the King Gundaphorus [Gundaphorus is a historical personage who reigned over a part of India in the first century after Christ. His coins bear his name in Greek, as Hyndopheres], and having commandment from him to buy a carpenter and bring him unto him.

Now the Lord seeing him walking in the market-place at noon said unto him: Wouldest thou buy a carpenter? And he said to him: Yea. And the Lord said to him: I have a slave that is a carpenter and I desire to sell him. And so saying he showed him Thomas afar off, and agreed with him for three litrae of silver unstamped, and wrote a deed of sale, saying: I, Jesus, the son of Joseph the carpenter, acknowledge that I have sold my slave, Judas by name, unto thee Abbanes, a merchant of Gundaphorus, king of the Indians. And when the deed was finished, the Saviour took Judas Thomas and led him away to Abbanes the merchant, and when Abbanes saw him he said unto him: Is this thy master? And the apostle said: Yea, he is my Lord. And he said: I have bought thee of him. And thy apostle held his peace. *

earlychristianwritings.com/text/actsthomas.html

 

[paarsurrey]

There is a reason why the Acts of Thomas is apocryphal. It is clearly fantastic. In this apocryphal, Jesus appears in what appears to be a dream sequence and an allegory.
The First Act, when he went into India with Abbanes the merchant.
earlychristianwritings.com/text/actsthomas.html

Hi

Thanks for a nice, informative put in.

 

[kellie]

Hi

Hello Kellie!

Where had you been, after so many days.

Thanks

Well this is what I do understand with reasons; my Catholic friends need not convert to my view point, they must remain stuck to their guns, but they are peaceful people like me, no need doing such a thing. Just be a rational, reasonable, logical, and research oriented human being, and stead fast on the true faith that is what is required.

So why come here and spout stuff we dont believe, and then try and tell us how wrong we are

 

[Montalban]

Hi

My Catholic friend, you are mistaken, the onus of proof that Jesus alongwith Mary went from Galilee to skies is on the Catholics. There is an unusual belief, not a normal belief so they have to prove their stance.

However if you come across with a counter-claim, the onus is on you.

This whole thread is simply you stating what your faith believes, and the ‘proof’ is what your faith believes.

Even you objection here misses logic.

There’s no debate here, simply you posting your faith, and then diverting from defending this to asking people to defend their texts - which is not the point of posting your own faith in the OP.

In other words you offer a monologue, which you just expect people to accept - and its true to you because it is, because it is, because it is.

And that’s the end for you, as far as debate is concerned on this.

 

[Montalban]

So why come here and spout stuff we dont believe, and then try and tell us how wrong we are

I’m afraid that’s all he ever does…

1 a) presents monologue
b) may attempt to justify this by stating that it is because it is (i.e. circular logic)
2. attacks other people’s faith - demanding that they defend their faith

Yet he refuses to answer questions about his own faith, unless it’s to offer swathes of monologue that has nothing to do with the question

 

[kellie]

I know, and it drives me nuts.

I like debate, proper debate. Not his stuff

 

[JFonseka]

Pretty flawed logic paarsurrey, You make a premise, we either agree or we don’t, if we don’t agree we give reasoning behind it, then when we make a premise, you tend to ignore it and bring up something else.

That’s how it’s seem to have flowed, you are losing here

 

[paarsurrey]

that’s the end for you, as far as debate

I like debate, proper debate

you are losing here

Hi ! My Catholic Friends!

I have made it clear several times that I don’t debate, I only discuss, I don’t mind if you add something informative - which is in fact a useful and meaningful (name removed by moderator)ut whether for me or against me or my faith. I don’t mind losing or winning as long it adds to my search for truth.

Thanks

May GodAllahYHWH help you to believe as JesusYeshuaIssa believed in; and to act like Jesus acted upon.

 

[Montalban]

Hi ! My Catholic Friends!

I have made it clear several times that I don’t debate, I only discuss,

You don’t even do that.

And, I AM NOT CATHOLIC this is now the third time I’ve told you, and as with the second time it’s evidence you don’t really consider what’s written by others

 

[kellie]

Hi ! My Catholic Friends!

I have made it clear several times that I don’t debate, I only discuss, I don’t mind if you add something informative - which is in fact a useful and meaningful (name removed by moderator)ut whether for me or against me or my faith. I don’t mind losing or winning as long it adds to my search for truth.

Thanks

May GodAllahYHWH help you to believe as JesusYeshuaIssa believed in; and to act like Jesus acted upon.

Search for truth??
You won’t listen to us at all, except you just patronise us by saying whatever we have to offer is all worthy.
If you were searching for truth, you wouldn’t be so adamant in your beliefs just yet.

 

[Montalban]

Search for truth??
You won’t listen to us at all, except you just patronise us by saying whatever we have to offer is all worthy.
If you were searching for truth, you wouldn’t be so adamant in your beliefs just yet.

Indeed. He demonstrates that he does not read what is stated - hence he keeps referring to me as a Catholic, even though I’m not and have told him several times.

He’s not interested in what’s written by others, only in spamming the threads with the stuff he believes in.

 

[paarsurrey]

You don’t even do that.
And, I AM NOT CATHOLIC this is now the third time I’ve told you, and as with the second time it’s evidence you don’t really consider what’s written by others

Hi

May GodAllahYHWH bless one Protestant (I know only one here) and the rest Catholic friends (excepting those who are neither of the above two faiths; yet they are also included in the blessings of GodAllahYHWH).!

Thanks

I think ordinarily the Catholics (and of course one Protestant also) are not used to applying reason by themselves to obtain true meaning of the scriptures, as they have left this task to be done by the Clergy, they just follow them blindly. If we are free and have GodAllahYHWH as the Supreme-Guide, we must flex our brain muscles (for the spiritual purpose as we use for our material worldly gains) to that end, and the scriptures open up before us, with the true meaning.

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi
I think ordinarily the Catholics (and of course one Protestant also) are not used to applying reason by themselves to obtain true meaning of the scriptures, as they have left this task to be done by the Clergy, they just follow them blindly. If we are free and have GodAllahYHWH as the Supreme-Guide, we must flex our brain muscles (for the spiritual purpose as we use for our material worldly gains) to that end, and the scriptures open up before us, with the true meaning.

We follow clergy blindly… classic
You really do not read what we type do you?
We follow the teachings of Jesus, you know, the one who DIED on the cross… Who is also God…
God is also our ‘supreme guide’ and we believe in him. Oh and believe it or not, we do flex our brains and think as well… We have the scriptures, its called the bible, the TRUE word of God
And do Muslims actually think or do they just do what Mohammed told them to do? I think we all know the answer to this one.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

May GodAllahYHWH bless one Orthodox (I know only one here) and the rest Catholic friends (excepting those who are neither of the above two faiths; yet they are also included in the blessings of GodAllahYHWH).!

Thanks