Jesus, Mary, Sin, and Being Human

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meltzerboy

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Given that Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants) believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, why do Christians also believe Jesus never sinned? If He was fully human, wouldn’t that mean He also sinned? Or does being fully human not necessarily include committing sin, but only the potential or temptation to sin, as Jesus was tempted by Satan? Is the reason possibly due to His being also divine in a hypostatic union with His humanness? Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans? However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned? She was fully human, and not divine.
 
Given that Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants) believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, why do Christians also believe Jesus never sinned?
Because He didn’t sin.
If He was fully human, wouldn’t that mean He also sinned?
Why would this be so?
Or does being fully human not necessarily include committing sin, but only the potential or temptation to sin, as Jesus was tempted by Satan?
To sin is to fall short of being fully human.
Is the reason possibly due to His being also divine in a hypostatic union with His humanness?
Obedience is the answer.
Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans?
No, obedience did.
However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned?
Because she didn’t.
She was fully human, and not divine.
Being human does not require one to sin.
 
Both Jesus and Mary had divine grace to protect them from sin. In Jesus’ case, the source of the divine grace was Himself. In the case of Mary, the divine grace came from her Son, Jesus.
 
Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans? However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned? She was fully human, and not divine.
She was fully human but being the mother of Jesus made a considerable difference! 🙂

She was obliviously conscious of her vocation…
 
=meltzerboy;8431120]Given that Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants) believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, why do Christians also believe Jesus never sinned? If He was fully human, wouldn’t that mean He also sinned? Or does being fully human not necessarily include committing sin, but only the potential or temptation to sin, as Jesus was tempted by Satan? Is the reason possibly due to His being also divine in a hypostatic union with His humanness? Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans? However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned? She was fully human, and not divine.
My dear brother,

The understanding comes from understanding a bit about God; and God’s Nature. Even in the OT, the Torah; God was “perfrect” because “God in an absolute sense MUST be perfect.”

The fact that humanity can; that is has the choice and capabilities to choose to sin; never has meant that humanity MUST sin. Even though “ALL” except Jesus and Mary have done so.

Between these two statements lies the answer to your question. Mary HAD to be perfected by God in order to become the “Mother of God.” Jesus HAD TOO be perfect because Jesus is God.

God could not become in ANY way, shape, or form, imperfect. Therefore both Mary and Jesus had to be in an absolute sense perfect.

This irequires a difficult leap of Faith for Jews who do NOT accept Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. As Jesus Himself said: “If you don’t believe Me; believe the works that I do.” A second evidence is the price of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, because many choose not to believe. As your history proves: God can be very swift and severe in His chastisements.

Miracles abound; and His One God; One faith [set of religious beliefs] and Only One Church still exist from the time of the Apostles to the present in the RCC. Without accepting Jesus as the Messiah; one cannot. I think, grasp this truth. Even in the OT thee sames "ones’ existed in differeing forms.

Shalom my friend,

Pat
 
My dear brother,

The understanding comes from understanding a bit about God; and God’s Nature. Even in the OT, the Torah; God was “perfrect” because “God in an absolute sense MUST be perfect.”

The fact that humanity can; that is has the choice and capabilities to choose to sin; never has meant that humanity MUST sin. Even though “ALL” except Jesus and Mary have done so.

Between these two statements lies the answer to your question. Mary HAD to be perfected by God in order to become the “Mother of God.” Jesus HAD TOO be perfect because Jesus is God.

God could not become in ANY way, shape, or form, imperfect. Therefore both Mary and Jesus had to be in an absolute sense perfect.

This irequires a difficult leap of Faith for Jews who do NOT accept Jesus as the long awaited Messiah. As Jesus Himself said: “If you don’t believe Me; believe the works that I do.” A second evidence is the price of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, because many choose not to believe. As your history proves: God can be very swift and severe in His chastisements.

Miracles abound; and His One God; One faith [set of religious beliefs] and Only One Church still exist from the time of the Apostles to the present in the RCC. Without accepting Jesus as the Messiah; one cannot. I think, grasp this truth. Even in the OT thee sames "ones’ existed in differeing forms.

Shalom my friend,

Pat
Thanks for your response, Pat. I’m not here to discuss the Messiah issue; the reasons why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah have been discussed and debated elsewhere on several other threads. I think you’ve answered my question; however, I have another one. If Jesus is considered by Catholics (and other Christians) as FULLY HUMAN and FULLY G-D at the same time, what exactly are His HUMAN features, apart from His physical appearance? You mentioned that humans do NOT have to sin. OK, I’ll accept that, although a bit reluctantly. What then do humans NEED to do? Is the human element of Jesus found in Jesus’ compassion toward the poor, the sick, the bereaved, and the outcasts of society? Further, is it Jesus the human who suffers, dies, and is resurrected, or Jesus the G-d, or both? IOW, what are the attributes with respect to being FULLY HUMAN that Jesus incorporates? If it is none of the above, then why is Jesus said to be fully human instead of simply fully G-d in the flesh? Is there NO duality within Jesus, but instead a spiritual perfection of His humanity due to the grace of His divinity? That’s what I don’t quite understand.
 
She was fully human but being the mother of Jesus made a considerable difference! 🙂

She was obliviously conscious of her vocation…
I mean of course “obviously”! (It’s well past my bedtime…)
 
Because He didn’t sin.

Why would this be so?

To sin is to fall short of being fully human.

Obedience is the answer.

No, obedience did.

Because she didn’t.

Being human does not require one to sin.
Thank you for your response. If being human does not require one to sin, is there anything that it DOES require one to do or to be? In other words, why is Jesus considered BOTH FULLY HUMAN AND FULLY DIVINE instead of just FULLY DIVINE? Is it only a matter of His physical manifestation or more a matter of His HUMAN compassion toward others? And is this elevated human compassion due to the grace of His own divinity?
 
Both Jesus and Mary had divine grace to protect them from sin. In Jesus’ case, the source of the divine grace was Himself. In the case of Mary, the divine grace came from her Son, Jesus.
Thanks for your response. Was Jesus’ exceptional compassion toward others also due to His own divine grace, or was that part of His human side? Or is it impossible to separate the two since they are united?
 
Given that Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants) believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, why do Christians also believe Jesus never sinned? If He was fully human, wouldn’t that mean He also sinned? Or does being fully human not necessarily include committing sin, but only the potential or temptation to sin, as Jesus was tempted by Satan? Is the reason possibly due to His being also divine in a hypostatic union with His humanness? Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans? However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned? She was fully human, and not divine.
Being fully human and fully God, Christ is unique. What applies to the rest of us who are fully human does not necessarily apply to Christ.
 
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

III. TRUE GOD AND TRUE MAN

464 The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.

During the first centuries, the Church had to defend and clarify this truth of faith against the heresies that falsified it.

It seems to me that He is both God and man at the same time not as a mixture of divinity and humanity or a partial form, but both human and divine in totality. Of course, this seems like a mystery. As a rather poor analogy, we could compare this nature of Jesus in its complete unity to our own nature as material and spiritual or soul united to body, not bodies with ghostly entities. Both soul and body are in unison.

I think that when Jesus experienced suffering, He felt it in His members even more keenly than us humans due to His divine nature which experienced His agony to a heightened degree.
 
Thanks for your response. Was Jesus’ exceptional compassion toward others also due to His own divine grace, or was that part of His human side? Or is it impossible to separate the two since they are united?
I believe it is the case that compassion is both a human and divine trait. Thus Jesus’ compassion authentically extended but both his human and divine nature.

To address another question you asked to another poster that was closely related…
… however, I have another one. If Jesus is considered by Catholics (and other Christians) as FULLY HUMAN and FULLY G-D at the same time, what exactly are His HUMAN features, apart from His physical appearance? You mentioned that humans do NOT have to sin. OK, I’ll accept that, although a bit reluctantly. What then do humans NEED to do? Is the human element of Jesus found in Jesus’ compassion toward the poor, the sick, the bereaved, and the outcasts of society?
Catholics believe Jesus was simply born of a human mother, and inherited the innate dignity that human beings receive by being children of God. He is considered fully human in that He has a human body and soul, while also fully retaining His dignity as the true divine son of God. Catholics also accept this a mystery that will never be fully understood.
Further, is it Jesus the human who suffers, dies, and is resurrected, or Jesus the G-d, or both? IOW, what are the attributes with respect to being FULLY HUMAN that Jesus incorporates? If it is none of the above, then why is Jesus said to be fully human instead of simply fully G-d in the flesh? Is there NO duality within Jesus, but instead a spiritual perfection of His humanity due to the grace of His divinity? That’s what I don’t quite understand.
It was, by necessity, His human nature that actually died, as His divine nature is invincible. However, both natures truly suffered betrayal and pain, and it was by His own divine grace that He rose from the dead. It will also be by His grace, that all of humanity that is saved will be raised at the end of time.
 
I believe it is the case that compassion is both a human and divine trait. Thus Jesus’ compassion authentically extended but both his human and divine nature.

To address another question you asked to another poster that was closely related…

Catholics believe Jesus was simply born of a human mother, and inherited the innate dignity that human beings receive by being children of God. He is considered fully human in that He has a human body and soul, while also fully retaining His dignity as the true divine son of God. Catholics also accept this a mystery that will never be fully understood.

It was, by necessity, His human nature that actually died, as His divine nature is invincible. However, both natures truly suffered betrayal and pain, and it was by His own divine grace that He rose from the dead. It will also be by His grace, that all of humanity that is saved will be raised at the end of time.
Good answer! Thanks for the explanation of Jesus’ dual nature with regard to His suffering, death, and resurrection.
 
Thanks for your response, Pat. I’m not here to discuss the Messiah issue; the reasons why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah have been discussed and debated elsewhere on several other threads. I think you’ve answered my question; however, I have another one. If Jesus is considered by Catholics (and other Christians) as FULLY HUMAN and FULLY G-D at the same time, what exactly are His HUMAN features, apart from His physical appearance? You mentioned that humans do NOT have to sin. OK, I’ll accept that, although a bit reluctantly. What then do humans NEED to do? Is the human element of Jesus found in Jesus’ compassion toward the poor, the sick, the bereaved, and the outcasts of society? Further, is it Jesus the human who suffers, dies, and is resurrected, or Jesus the G-d, or both? IOW, what are the attributes with respect to being FULLY HUMAN that Jesus incorporates? If it is none of the above, then why is Jesus said to be fully human instead of simply fully G-d in the flesh? Is there NO duality within Jesus, but instead a spiritual perfection of His humanity due to the grace of His divinity? That’s what I don’t quite understand.
What humans need to do is to Love.
The answer to your questions regarding the nature of the Incarnation fills many volumes. I’d invite you to study the Catechism beginning at article 456.
 
Given that Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants) believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, why do Christians also believe Jesus never sinned? If He was fully human, wouldn’t that mean He also sinned? Or does being fully human not necessarily include committing sin, but only the potential or temptation to sin, as Jesus was tempted by Satan? Is the reason possibly due to His being also divine in a hypostatic union with His humanness? Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans? However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned? She was fully human, and not divine.
Actually Jesus shows his humanity quite well in Matthew 15 when he calls the Canaanite woman a dog. He then goes on to apologize and grant her request expelling the demons from the woman’s daughter when he see’s that she is a woman of great faith.
 
Christians believe Jesus never sinned because He said:

“Which one of you can prove that I am guilty of sin?”

No one has ever proved He did sin in spite of extreme temptation and provocation to do so. The harmony of the accounts of His life and death with His teaching is sufficient evidence that He was telling the truth…
 
Thanks for your response, Pat. I’m not here to discuss the Messiah issue; the reasons why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah have been discussed and debated elsewhere on several other threads. I think you’ve answered my question; however, I have another one. If Jesus is considered by Catholics (and other Christians) as FULLY HUMAN and FULLY G-D at the same time, what exactly are His HUMAN features, apart from His physical appearance? You mentioned that humans do NOT have to sin. OK, I’ll accept that, although a bit reluctantly. What then do humans NEED to do? Is the human element of Jesus found in Jesus’ compassion toward the poor, the sick, the bereaved, and the outcasts of society? Further, is it Jesus the human who suffers, dies, and is resurrected, or Jesus the G-d, or both? IOW, what are the attributes with respect to being FULLY HUMAN that Jesus incorporates? If it is none of the above, then why is Jesus said to be fully human instead of simply fully G-d in the flesh? Is there NO duality within Jesus, but instead a spiritual perfection of His humanity due to the grace of His divinity? That’s what I don’t quite understand

*Dear friend in Christ,

You seem to be asking 4 questions. 1. What are the “human features” of Jesus: ANSWER: Jesus is like US [a composite of all humanity] except for sin. Jesus felt anger: [Jn.2:15], Jesus felt sorrow: [Jn.11:34-25], Jesus felt Joy: [Mt. 19:14]. When the bible claims Jesus grew in wisdom; the reference was NOT “knowledge as we know it,: rather it was Divinity EXPERIENCING what God’s Created humanity experience. [Lk. 2:52]

2. What does humanity need to do? We ALL must know Christ [as God], Love, serve and completely obey both Him and those he charges with teaching us and leading us to him. The key here is actually understanding ALL that he teaches; accepting it; and applying it to our lives. A second key is the “new Commandment to ”Love one another as I have loved you.” [Jn. 13:34]

3. Who suffered on the Cross? The humanity of Jesus or the Divinity of Jesus. The answer is Christ suffered in His humanity; but kept himself alive through his Divinity until he was crucified. He “naturally” would have died prior to the crucifixion from a loss of blood stemming from the severe scourging at the pillar; the crowning with thorns and the long trek carrying his cross to Calvary. [Lk. 23:46]

**4. **Is there no dulaity in Jesus? Yes of course there is and always was. But Being an “all-powerful God” our LORD was able to seperate the two; combine the two or to act as either; according to HIS WILL and His desire to do so. As God all the miracles were done BY HIS OWN DIVINITY through His OWN Humaity.

***In His Passion it was Christ- humanity that suffered the Physical abuses and His Divinity that suffered the Spiritual abuses. So it was the “COMPLETE-GOD-MAN” WHO SUFFERED FOR US. ***

This answers your questions I hope? I feel your searching for some other information? Let me know and I’ll try to supply your needs.

Shalom,
Pat
*
 
Given that Christians (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants) believe that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, why do Christians also believe Jesus never sinned? If He was fully human, wouldn’t that mean He also sinned? Or does being fully human not necessarily include committing sin, but only the potential or temptation to sin, as Jesus was tempted by Satan? Is the reason possibly due to His being also divine in a hypostatic union with His humanness? Did the divinity of Jesus prevent him from sinning as do all other humans? However, in that case, why do Catholics believe (I think) that the Virgin Mary also never sinned? She was fully human, and not divine.
Man’s being in communion with God excludes sin, sin being an unnatural behavior for man by its very nature. This is the essence of the New Covenant-that so long as man is joined to God, His spirit operating within, man does not sin. To the degree man turns away from God, not recognizing his dependence on Him, man soon sins. As Jesus united God with man, man must unite himself with God, as he was before the fall. Jesus is the path back to the Father.
 
Hello Meltzerboy,

**I believe that catholic belief about Jesus’ Holiness as a Human is that: **

a) Jesus was not only sinless but impeccable- This means that Jesus could not choose to sin. Though he has two natures that he possesses perfectly as his own, divine and human, he is only one subject, one divine person. So he cannot sin against himself- For him, sin is not even a possibility.

b) He was/is also the perfect human being, the best of us, so his human nature was also perfect without the slightest effects of original sin. Christ did not suffer from any of the effects of original sin on the soul such as concupiscence/or disordered affections or attachments to things, he had no flaws of character, no faults at all, such as greed, sloth, etc or generally bad tendencies that we suffer from that do not in themselves constitute sin, but tendencies toward sin.

-In many ways, we cannot fully appreciate his humanity, because we only know fallen human nature (man with many weaknesses in nature and character). It’s difficult to imagine the alternative version of humankind without sin or its effects and what that would have been like. So we know that Christ as man, was subject to limitations- he needed to sleep, eat, work etc. As man, he had limited knowledge and abilities. This was his usual human condition, unless he permitted it some extra-human privileges/miracles. But we truly can not know Jesus’ perfect human condition well, because our own humanity is fallen. We don’t know if all of the things we take for granted as “natural” to us are truly natural or fallen, therefore if Jesus (as man) experienced them all or not. Theologians say his human intellect must have been well beyond any human intellect because it was not fallen and was able to grasp truth more clearly, easily, directly, and avoid error easily. His will was perfectly unencumbered by passions and other things as explained earlier. He never suffered temptations “from the inside”, or rebellion from his nature- All his temptations were external.

c) The proximity of his human nature to the divine, being a nature in which a Divine person acted directly, being perfectly united to the divine will. You see, no creature can be so close to God, as to be one with him, and be unaffected. Holiness even in us, and the Saints is the result of progressive closeness to Divinity, made possible by grace. God Hallows, makes Holy. So Christ had, as man, the fullest measure of holiness that is possible to imagine in any creature, anything not God. Again, we cannot know how this affected his general nature so that we can point at his life and say easily: That’s due to his impeccability, That’s due to his human perfection, That’s due to his perfect union with God. It’s not something we can properly imagine.

The Church’s teaching about Mary:

a) She certainly was not impeccable (incapable of sin). She had full freedom to disobey, like any creature. Her sinlessness is based on choice and grace.
b) She was saved from original sin, which is a type of hole or lack where sanctifying grace should have been were it not for the fall. Sanctifying grace is like our umbilical code to God, that enables intimate communion or friendship with God, beyond the relationship of Creator-creature. Mary, at her conception got what we get at baptism, the infusion of grace into the soul, and communion/shared life with the Blessed Trinity. She suffered from no effects of original sin, but rather was in the condition of Adam and eve before the fall.
c) The grace she got was perfect and complete, enduring all her life, so that she submitted perfectly to God for all her life- She was “full of grace” all her life. Tempted, sure, but her boon of a grace was more than sufficient to help her.
 
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