Jesus, on the Cross, redeemed ALL creation for God the Father, not just human beings

[adrift]

This was off topic on another thread. It may be because terms are not defined. What does the poster mean by redeemed for instance?
I have edited the reply to reflect only that which should be discussed.

have a mind per se, he just is), we DO have to attempt to figure out what the Bible means and how much Jesus knew about his own part in the divine plan, etc.

Jesus, on the Cross, redeemed ALL creation for God the Father, not just human beings. So, I agree with you, God cares about ALL creation - Mr. Palmer and Cecil both.

I do hope that Lily will join this thread and give a more complete answer.

 

[TimothyH]

The term redeemed has to do with the way debtors prisons operated in the ancient world.

Debtor’s prisons were a reality in ancient Judea. The inability to pay a debt could land you in court and eventually in jail.

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (Matthew 5:25-26)

To add to the humiliation of being in debtor’s prison, the debtor was not allowed to pay off his own debt. Someone else had to come down to the prison and redeem you - purchase the right to take you out of prison.

***You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. **(1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. (1 Corinthians 7:23)*

Redemption - purchasing the right to take someone out of debtor’s prison - was how many people acquired slaves or servants. If your wife or relatives could not afford to redeem you then they might strike a deal with someone else. The prisoner would agree to serve the redeemer for a period of time in return for him buying the right to take you out of prison.

At any time the debtor was permitted to refuse the deal up until the moment they crossed the threshold of the prison into daylight. Once they stepped outside into the light, the deal was struck - you were a slave or servant of your redeemer.

Christ’s blood purchased the right to take us out of the prison of sin. Christ redeemed us. We are free to reject the deal at any time before we step over the threshold into the light of Heaven.

-Tim-

 

[adrift]

Thanks Tim the question is how does that relate to all creation being redeemed not just human beings?

 

[Elizium23]

The Nicene Creed states: “for us men and for our salvation, he came down from Heaven.”

Christ Is the Author of Peace and Harmony, an audience with Pope Benedict XVI

Christ, then, is proclaimed to be the “Firstborn of all creation” (verse 15). Christ precedes all of creation (see verse 17) since he was begotten from all eternity. Thus, “all things were created through him and for him” (verse 16). Ancient Jewish tradition also acknowledged that “the whole world was created in view of the Messiah” (Sanhedrin, 98b).

For the Apostle Paul, Christ is the basis for cohesion (“in him all things hold together”), the mediator (“through him”), and the ultimate goal toward which all of creation is converging. He is “the Firstborn among many brothers” (Romans 8:29), that is, the Son par excellence in that great family of the children of God that baptism makes us part of.

 

[JerryZ]

That makes no sense whatsoever. Creation was not guilty of original sin.
Humans are.
Therefore Jesus could not redeem that did not need redeeming.
Perhaps this goes along with those people asking what about people living on other planets out there. Did Jesus redeem them also by dying on the cross here on Earth.
How can we know what is on the mind of GOD?
I would be a fool if I said I know. So i will not venture a position on that question, but for us here on earth and our immediate creation (animals and plants) I reiterate they did not sin hence no redeeming required.

…

 

[adrift]

Jerry I agree with you

 

[adrift]

Christ died to redeem ALL OF CREATION. Period.

Jesus redeemed ALL OF CREATION, not just humankind:

“The Son of God became man in order to restore all creation, in one supreme act of praise, to the One who made it from nothing. He, the Eternal High Priest who by the blood of his Cross entered the eternal sanctuary, thus gives back to the Creator and Father all creation redeemed” (Eccl. De Euch., 8).

St. Paul:

“God wanted all fullness to be found in him, and through him to reconcile all things to him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, by making peace through his death on the cross” (Col 1:15, 19-20).

This to is edited for nonessential remarks.

 

[mjs2001]

So i will not venture a position on that question, but for us here on earth and our immediate creation (animals and plants) I reiterate they did not sin hence no redeeming required.
…

Yes, our sin caused the brokenness of the world. In redeeming us, He
will restore the natural order of creation and the leopard will lie down with the kid, etc.

 

[Elizium23]

Yes, our sin caused the brokenness of the world. In redeeming us, He
will restore the natural order of creation and the leopard will lie down with the kid, etc.

That is different from what Lily said. There is no doubt that Christ, at His Second Coming, will reconcile all things to Himself and restore the natural order, as you said. However, His redemptive sacrifice through His Passion, Death and Resurrection were for the special benefit of mankind. “This is the chalice of My Blood, the Blood of the New Covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many, so that sins may be forgiven.” So that sins may be forgiven, not so that Cecil the Lion can roam free and wild again.

 

[Antegin]

Originally Posted by Lily Bernans

We DO have to attempt to figure out what the Bible means and how much Jesus knew about his own part in the divine plan, etc.

Jesus, on the Cross, redeemed ALL creation for God the Father, not just human beings. So, I agree with you, God cares about ALL creation - Mr. Palmer and Cecil both.

Creation did not commit mortal sin. God’s covenant was with Adam, no one else, nothing else. When Christ came, He incarnated as a human being, not as ‘‘creation.’’

 

[mjs2001]

Lily’s use of “redeem all creation” is appropriate. Redemption isn’t merely the payment of the debt, it is actually the act of regaining possession of property after repayment of a debt. So, by paying the debt, Christ does in fact redeem all creation.

 

[sarah_j]

Yes, our sin caused the brokenness of the world. In redeeming us, He
will restore the natural order of creation and the leopard will lie down with the kid, etc.

That is different from what Lily said. There is no doubt that Christ, at His Second Coming, will reconcile all things to Himself and restore the natural order, as you said. However, His redemptive sacrifice through His Passion, Death and Resurrection were for the special benefit of mankind. “This is the chalice of My Blood, the Blood of the New Covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many, so that sins may be forgiven.” So that sins may be forgiven, not so that Cecil the Lion can roam free and wild again.

Exactly.

 

[Antegin]

Lily’s use of “redeem all creation” is appropriate. Redemption isn’t merely the payment of the debt, it is actually the act of regaining possession of property after repayment of a debt. So, by paying the debt, Christ does in fact redeem all creation.

In Genesis, we were chased out. We did not take paradise with us. The only ‘‘property’’ redeemed was our souls from the slavery of sin. Our world, which God gave us to care for, is a mess despite the sweat of our brow.

That is different from what Lily said. There is no doubt that Christ, at His Second Coming, will reconcile all things to Himself and restore the natural order, as you said. However, His redemptive sacrifice through His Passion, Death and Resurrection were for the special benefit of mankind. “This is the chalice of My Blood, the Blood of the New Covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many, so that sins may be forgiven.” So that sins may be forgiven, not so that Cecil the Lion can roam free and wild again.

Yes, our sin caused the brokenness of the world. In redeeming us, He will restore the natural order of creation and the leopard will lie down with the kid, etc.

This will be after the second coming.

 

[TimothyH]

Thanks Tim the question is how does that relate to all creation being redeemed not just human beings?

All creation is subject to decay because of original sin.

***For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. *(Romans 8:19-21)

We await the end of time, when Christ returns to make all things new.

waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Peter 3:12-13)

And it will happen.

**Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; ** (Revelation 21:1-2)

We will be part of it if we persevere to the end.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

That makes no sense whatsoever. Creation was not guilty of original sin.
Humans are.
Therefore Jesus could not redeem that did not need redeeming.
Perhaps this goes along with those people asking what about people living on other planets out there. Did Jesus redeem them also by dying on the cross here on Earth.
How can we know what is on the mind of GOD?
I would be a fool if I said I know. So i will not venture a position on that question, but for us here on earth and our immediate creation (animals and plants) I reiterate they did not sin hence no redeeming required.
…

Jerry I agree with you

The USCCB Catechism for Adults says

**Through the fall of Adam and Eve, the harmony of creation was also destroyed. **
Chapter 6, Pg 69, ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/uscca/index.html#97

This has been an ancient teaching of the Church. It cannot be debated.

-Tim-

 

[JerryZ]

The USCCB Catechism for Adults says

***Through the fall of Adam and Eve, the harmony of creation was also destroyed. ***
Chapter 6, Pg 69, ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/uscca/index.html#97

This has been an ancient teaching of the Church. It cannot be debated.

-Tim-

And I fully agree with that, however as other have correctly pointed out the redeeming of the natural order will only happen at the end of time with the new earth and new sky.
Right now the natural realm has not been redeemed.

…

 

[Elizium23]

And I fully agree with that, however as other have correctly pointed out the redeeming of the natural order will only happen at the end of time with the new earth and new sky.
Right now the natural realm has not been redeemed.

…

By His life, death, and resurrection, salvation is available to us NOW. The gates of Heaven have been opened. If Christ’s sacrifice had redeemed all of creation and reconciled it to Himself then we would already be living in parardise, NOW. But the prophecy of Isaiah that the lion will lie down with the lamb is one for the Kingdom established by Christ’s Second Coming.

Now I might be convinced that Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross is linked to His Second Coming, but those arguing that His sacrifice redeemed all of creation seem to be missing the fact of the special and unique place in creation enjoyed by human beings, made in God’s own image. WE are the reason God sent His only Son, and WE are the reason Christ became a man, and not Aslan.

 

[ringil]

The term redeemed has to do with the way debtors prisons operated in the ancient world.

Debtor’s prisons were a reality in ancient Judea. The inability to pay a debt could land you in court and eventually in jail.

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. (Matthew 5:25-26)

To add to the humiliation of being in debtor’s prison, the debtor was not allowed to pay off his own debt. Someone else had to come down to the prison and redeem you - purchase the right to take you out of prison.

***You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. ***(1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. (1 Corinthians 7:23)

Redemption - purchasing the right to take someone out of debtor’s prison - was how many people acquired slaves or servants. If your wife or relatives could not afford to redeem you then they might strike a deal with someone else. The prisoner would agree to serve the redeemer for a period of time in return for him buying the right to take you out of prison.

At any time the debtor was permitted to refuse the deal up until the moment they crossed the threshold of the prison into daylight. Once they stepped outside into the light, the deal was struck - you were a slave or servant of your redeemer.

Christ’s blood purchased the right to take us out of the prison of sin. Christ redeemed us. We are free to reject the deal at any time before we step over the threshold into the light of Heaven.

-Tim-

That was a fascinating historical insight into the idea of redemption.

Thanks!

 

[TimothyH]

And I fully agree with that, however as other have correctly pointed out the redeeming of the natural order will only happen at the end of time with the new earth and new sky.
Right now the natural realm has not been redeemed.

…

Like salvation, redemption is not a one time event. The process of redemption includes the redeemer paying the price and the redeemed being released from prison.

Christ paid the price on the cross. That part is done.

***Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us – for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree” – **(Galatians 3:13)

you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (1 Corinthians 6:20)*

Creation (including our bodies) however, has not yet been released.

because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:21-23)

Jesus paying the priced and the release are part of a process. That is the way it worked in ancient debtors prisons. You paid the price one day and had to come back later to get the prisoner whom you redeemed. These are Jesus’, Paul’s and Peter’s own analogies.

It is right to say that Jesus has redeemed us. It is also correct to say that we have not yet been released from the prison of this life into the glory of a new creation and our glorified bodies. We have to follow our redeemer out of the prison of this life in order to be released.

-Tim-

 

[Mintaka]

You don’t have to be touchy-feely about animals, plants, rocks, etc. to be happy that they are part of God’s Creation, or sad that Creation fell along with its head creatures, Adam and Eve.

It’s true that fallen Creation will not be fully healed until the end of time, the general Resurrection, the new heaven and new earth, etc.

However… it is true that Creation was partially healed by the first coming of Jesus Christ. This was demonstrated in big things (the winds and waves obeying Jesus and His ability to multiply loaves and fishes). Traditionally, Christians also believed that animals obeyed Jesus and were part of the glory of His Nativity, according to His birth in the stable, the prophet Isaiah’s comment (Isaiah 1:3) that “The ox knows his owner, and the donkey his master’s manger,” and the angels announcing Jesus’ coming to the shepherds (and hence the sheep). This was logical since Jesus was the new Adam, and Adam had dominion over the animals. Likewise, the death of Jesus didn’t just make Mary sad; the Sun and Moon covered their faces (as the old saying goes), and the earth trembled. When Jesus was resurrected, not just men but also Creation rejoiced. We can’t tell exactly how this affected the natural world, but obviously it did somehow matter.

Because of this, it was always seen as very fitting for saints to be on good terms with animals, and vice versa. The Egyptian hermit monks made pets of deadly cobras and all kinds of large snakes, and were guarded from danger by these friendly snakes. Monks and hermits (like St. Benedict) were often friendly with ravens and crows (following the example of the prophet Elijah). Many saints had a way with bees. Often hermit saints got along even with wild animals of the most dangerous kinds, because they were so Christ-like and authoritative. St. Francis and the wolf, or St. Anthony preaching to the birds and the fish, are also examples. We won’t even go into examples of dominion over plants, or of inanimate creatures, like water or lava.

This sort of thing is the opposite of worshipping nature or giving animals undue importance. We can appreciate them as both fellow creatures made by God, and as lower creatures than ourselves that need our protection and guidance.