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vern_humphrey
Guest
That doesn’t track – how would accepting suffering cause God to not be omnipotent?
I don’t see how you get that.
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
If God can choose to become human without giving up His divinity, then He can certainly choose to suffer without giving up His omnipotence.Because the only way to choose to suffer is to give up being omnipotent. If one is all powerful, nothing can make such a being suffer.
As you state, nothing can “make such a being suffer”, but He can certainly volunteer to suffer. His omnipotence is not diminished just because He freely chooses to suffer for us; it only serves to demonstrate His great love for us.
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Valke2
Guest
how can an omnipotent being suffer without diminishing (a/k/a giving up) omnipotence? If a diety suffers, by definition they are not omnipotent.If God can choose to become human without giving up His divinity, then He can certainly choose to suffer without giving up His omnipotence.
As you state, nothing can “make such a being suffer”, but He can certainly volunteer to suffer. His omnipotence is not diminished just because He freely chooses to suffer for us; it only serves to demonstrate His great love for us.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
How so?how can an omnipotent being suffer without diminishing (a/k/a giving up) omnipotence? If a diety suffers, by definition they are not omnipotent.
I don’t see any chain of logic there.
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
Check your definition of omnipotence. It means “all powerful”, not “incapable of suffering”. Suffering does not diminish omnipotence.how can an omnipotent being suffer without diminishing (a/k/a giving up) omnipotence? If a diety suffers, by definition they are not omnipotent.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Then why would the Jews insist on “like a lion my hands” then when it doest make sense? Dont you remember my post on this issue?or much of the story of the crucifixion was made up to comply with the description in the psalm.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1782010#post1782010
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Valke2
Guest
In order to suffer one has to inflict some kind of pain on you. To be subject to the power of an outside source, which causes pain or suffering, would require the one suffering to be subject to the power of another. I don’t see how this can be with an ominipotent diety. To then say Jesus was an om(name removed by moderator)otent, human diety is even more problematic.Check your definition of omnipotence. It means “all powerful”, not “incapable of suffering”. Suffering does not diminish omnipotence.
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Valke2
Guest
No idea what you are getting at here. If I was writing a eulogy for Jesus or the story of his death and I wasn’t an eyewitness, or even if I was, I would look to the scriptures I was familar with to tell my story. It would make sense that his last words, as I worte them down, would be a quotation from Psalms.Then why would the Jews insist on “like a lion my hands” then when it doest make sense? Dont you remember my post on this issue?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1782010#post1782010
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vern_humphrey
Guest
That doesn’t track for two reasons – first of all, God willed that He suffer.In order to suffer one has to inflict some kind of pain on you. To be subject to the power of an outside source, which causes pain or suffering, would require the one suffering to be subject to the power of another. I don’t see how this can be with an ominipotent diety. To then say Jesus was an om(name removed by moderator)otent, human diety is even more problematic.
Secondly, Christ was wholly man and wholly God. You can see that in the Agony in the Garden, where Christ has perfect foreknowledge of the suffering He will feel, and the effect it has on Him.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
You said the possibility exists that the story was made up to fit with the Psalm, the question I asked is that why did the Jews change the Psalm? The only answer is to deflect from the story. Jesus was a real person, and he was murdered, that is not made up.No idea what you are getting at here. If I was writing a eulogy for Jesus or the story of his death and I wasn’t an eyewitness, or even if I was, I would look to the scriptures I was familar with to tell my story. It would make sense that his last words, as I worte them down, would be a quotation from Psalms.
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Valke2
Guest
I don’t dispute that Jesus was real or that he was crucified.You said the possibility exists that the story was made up to fit with the Psalm, the question I asked is that why did the Jews change the Psalm? The only answer is to deflect from the story. Jesus was a real person, and he was murdered, that is not made up.
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
Your premise is faulty. You CAN suffer without someone greater inflicting pain on you. Take the case of a newborn baby. The parent is obviously more powerful, physically and mentally, than the baby, yet the parent would suffer terribly if the baby got sick and died. The baby did not will the suffering on the parent, or overpower the parent by superior force, or even realize the parent was suffering. Yet the powerless newborn made the parent suffer! Could Almighty God not also suffer when He sees His children suffer?In order to suffer one has to inflict some kind of pain on you. To be subject to the power of an outside source, which causes pain or suffering, would require the one suffering to be subject to the power of another. I don’t see how this can be with an ominipotent diety. To then say Jesus was an om(name removed by moderator)otent, human diety is even more problematic.
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Valke2
Guest
your response is faulty. the parent is not omnipotent. IN fact, your response supports my premises. The fact that the parent suffers is proof that the parent is not omnipotent. And I believe when we talk about Jesus suffering, we are discussing his suffering as a result of his crucifixion, physical suffering. In any event, I believe my premises stands.Your premise is faulty. You CAN suffer without someone greater inflicting pain on you. Take the case of a newborn baby. The parent is obviously more powerful, physically and mentally, than the baby, yet the parent would suffer terribly if the baby got sick and died. The baby did not will the suffering on the parent, or overpower the parent by superior force, or even realize the parent was suffering. Yet the powerless newborn made the parent suffer! Could Almighty God not also suffer when He sees His children suffer?
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Cara_Serrano
Guest
As a parent, there are times I have the complete power to save my children from painful consequences, but I choose to withhold my power and let them suffer the consequences of their action. Does that mean I no longer have parental power? No, it only means I have chosen not to exercise it. I choose to withhold my power, and suffer along with my children as they go through a difficult time, without relinquishing my authority. Why can’t you grant God the same parental option?
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Valke2
Guest
God can choose not to be omipotent.
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Valke!That is not an easy question for me. Well, in a sense it is. Since I’m Jewish… But I have similar issues with my own scriptures and am currently trying to figure out how to follow them with the knowledge that what they say and what how they were interpeted are often two very different things.
The best I’ve been able to come up with for my own rationale is to paraphrase something I hears: “Not everything that happened is necessarily true. And not everything that is true necessarily happened.”
…so basically you’re saying: “Old Testament interpreted by non-Christian Jews, good; everything in the New Testament, bad.”
You do not do yourself any favor when searching for Yahweh while demeaning another person’s search for the same Yahweh!
Remove from your mind all the obstructions that keeps you from receiving the Holy Spirit and He will Deliver you from man’s clutches and disbelief. Yeshua Loves you and only He can Lift you up!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Valke!God can choose not to be omipotent.
…here your problem is not the term “Omnipotent…” your problem is knowing the Old Testament Scriptures and Yahweh.
Yahweh’s Omnipotence did not make Him a cold unfeeling Creator… even from the very beginning we find, in Genesis, that only after the disobedience of Eve and Adam did Yahweh God remove them from a plush existence… and even after the murderous Cain cowered in fear of what could happen to him God did not ignore his human frialty but promised that he would not be killed on the penalty of vengeance.
An unfeeling Omnipotent Being would have tortured to death the abomination that was Cain!
…just read the Pentateuch… you’ll find Yahweh God’s Love, Anger, Patience, Amity, Parental Obligations, Lordship, and yes even Reckless Abandon for a People which He Himself calls hard, disobedient, and rebelious.
So you think an Omnipotent God, as Yahweh is, would not feel disappointed and would not suffer our transgressions and rejection of His Authority? (Remember His words to the prophet Samuel: “Israel rejects me as their King and they forsake me for strange gods…” 1 Samuel 8:5-18–paraphrased)
Maran atha!
Angel
K
kepha1
Guest
Pslam 22
30 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
Looks like a supporting verse for purgatory.
30 All who sleep in the earth will bow low before God; All who have gone down into the dust will kneel in homage.
Looks like a supporting verse for purgatory.
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Valke2
Guest
If I said something like “Remove from your mind all obstructions that keeps you from rejecting your false Messiah and God will redeem you and show you the truth of my faith”, that would be demeaning another’s search for God. Disputing religous doctrine on a non-Catholic thread, the purpose of which is to discuss religion, is not demeaning anything.Hi, Valke!
…so basically you’re saying: “Old Testament interpreted by non-Christian Jews, good; everything in the New Testament, bad.”
You do not do yourself any favor when searching for Yahweh while demeaning another person’s search for the same Yahweh!
Remove from your mind all the obstructions that keeps you from receiving the Holy Spirit and He will Deliver you from man’s clutches and disbelief. Yeshua Loves you and only He can Lift you up!
Maran atha!
Angel
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Valke2
Guest
I’m quite familar with the Torah, thank you. In all those stories you quote, God does not behave like an omnipotent being. An omnipotent being does not need to ask Adam where he is hiding or ask Cain where Able is. You can rely on later commentary of course to say that God knew the answers to these questions, as Judaism does. But in the stories themselves, God is neither omnipotent or omnipresent. (an an unfeeling omnipotent being would not have cared about Cain one way or the other).Hi, Valke!
…here your problem is not the term “Omnipotent…” your problem is knowing the Old Testament Scriptures and Yahweh.
Yahweh’s Omnipotence did not make Him a cold unfeeling Creator… even from the very beginning we find, in Genesis, that only after the disobedience of Eve and Adam did Yahweh God remove them from a plush existence… and even after the murderous Cain cowered in fear of what could happen to him God did not ignore his human frialty but promised that he would not be killed on the penalty of vengeance.
An unfeeling Omnipotent Being would have tortured to death the abomination that was Cain!
…just read the Pentateuch… you’ll find Yahweh God’s Love, Anger, Patience, Amity, Parental Obligations, Lordship, and yes even Reckless Abandon for a People which He Himself calls hard, disobedient, and rebelious.
So you think an Omnipotent God, as Yahweh is, would not feel disappointed and would not suffer our transgressions and rejection of His Authority? (Remember His words to the prophet Samuel: “Israel rejects me as their King and they forsake me for strange gods…” 1 Samuel 8:5-18–paraphrased)
Maran atha!
Angel
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