Jesus physically present in Catholic Churches

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dcdurel

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While Jesus is present everywhere, since He is God, and while he is present where 2 or 3 are gathered, and He is present even in Protestant Churches, and He is present in the readings, etc. it is only in the Eucharist that He is physically present, that is, He is present not only in His Divinity but also He is present in His humanity, with His body and soul. Father Hardon points out that when Jesus walked the earth in Isreal, people were not healed, either physically or spiritually until they came in contact with His physical presence. He says this is because all graces come to us through His humanity, even though they originate in His divinity.

Since Jesus is present in the tabernacle with His body, blood, soul and divinity we say He is physically present, since physical refers to material, body, natural. Thus when we approach Jesus in the Eucharist we can expect many more miracles than when we come to Him only in His Divinity, just as many more miracles were worked when the people of Israel came into His physical presence when He walked the earth visibly.

It has been my experience that this is true. That is, I have experienced many more miracles during Eucharistic adoration, then when praying at places where He was not physically present.

Has anyone else noticed this also?
 
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dcdurel:
While Since Jesus is present in the tabernacle with His body, blood, soul and divinity we say He is physically present, since physical refers to material, body, natural. QUOTE]
no, we say he is sacramentally present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity under the appearances of bread and wine in the Eucharist. This is a crucial distinction.
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dcdurel:
While Jesus is present everywhere, since He is God, and while he is present where 2 or 3 are gathered, and He is present even in Protestant Churches, and He is present in the readings, etc. it is only in the Eucharist that He is physically present, that is, He is present not only in His Divinity but also He is present in His humanity, with His body and soul. Father Hardon points out that when Jesus walked the earth in Isreal, people were not healed, either physically or spiritually until they came in contact with His physical presence. He says this is because all graces come to us through His humanity, even though they originate in His divinity.

Since Jesus is present in the tabernacle with His body, blood, soul and divinity we say He is physically present, since physical refers to material, body, natural. Thus when we approach Jesus in the Eucharist we can expect many more miracles than when we come to Him only in His Divinity, just as many more miracles were worked when the people of Israel came into His physical presence when He walked the earth visibly.

It has been my experience that this is true. That is, I have experienced many more miracles during Eucharistic adoration, then when praying at places where He was not physically present.

Has anyone else noticed this also?
Click to expand...
As you said in most situations Jesus is Spiritually present. We use the term “Real Presence” because in the Eucharist Jesus is Spiritually as well as Really, Truly, and Substantially Present. He is present in a form that we can taste, see, and touch.
 
Ditto what others have said about the nuances between “physical presence” and “real presence”. Also:
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dcdurel:
Father Hardon points out that when Jesus walked the earth in Isreal, people were not healed, either physically or spiritually until they came in contact with His physical presence.
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With all due respect, I believe Father Hardon is mistaken. Off the top of my head, the centurion’s son was cured at a distance. And Lazarus came out the tomb at Jesus’s call, not because he was led by the hand.

tee
(who is grateful for the gift of the Real Presence)
 
no, we say he is sacramentally present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity under the appearances of bread and wine in the Eucharist. This is a crucial distinction.
Click to expand...
Jesus is sacramentally present, but that includes physical presence.
Jesus is present in His Body and blood, that is, in His humanity. The Church teaches that since He is present in His body, then, His muscles, bones, skin, etc. are present. His whole body is present. See the Roman Catechism. That is what the Church means by substantially present. The Church also calls it a “unique” presence, in referring to the same thing. In other words, unique does not refer to the sign of His presence (bread and wine), but the actual mode of His presence itself that is unique, (body and blood)

Thus, only in the Eucharist is Jesus present substantially, that is body, blood, soul and divinity. All the other presences of Jesus is only in His divinity. Thus, only in Catholic Churches do we have Jesus in His humanity.

Now, the usual definition of the word “physical” is :
“Of or relating to the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit.” (dictionarly.com)

Other dictionaries also say, relating to what is “material, bodily, natural.”
Thus, since Jesus’ body is glorified, but still not spiritual, because by definition bodies are not spirits, then we can say perfectly well that Jesus is physically present in the Eucharist. In other words, His body is present.
Some people will try to object by saying that “physical” means “empirical”, (that which can be measured). That definition is not found in all dictionaries, and when it is found, it is usually the third or fourth definition. In other words, it is not the usual meaning of the word.
Thus, since the usual meaning of the word physical means “relating to the body”, then it is perfectly correct to say that Jesus is physically present. It is incorrect to say that He is NOT physically present, because that would mean His body is not present.
Whenever people disagree, then simply take out a dictionary and look up the first definition. We must not let dissidents re-define meanings of words to suit their purposes. When they try to bring up the third or fourth definition, simply say, that is nice, but that is not the usual definition of the word “physical”.
So, we must say that only in the Eucharist is Jesus physically present on earth. In Protestant Churches Jesus is not physically present.

Now, as Father Hardon pointed out, when Jesus walked the earth more miracles happened when people came into the physical presence of Jesus, then when they did not. That was one of the attractions of Jesus, was His miracles, which all occured when people made requests to Him in His physical presence.
Someone wrote:
With all due respect, I believe Father Hardon is mistaken. Off the top of my head, the centurion’s son was cured at a distance. And Lazarus came out the tomb at Jesus’s call, not because he was led by the hand.
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The centurians son was not cured until the centurions request came to Jesus himself as He walked the earth, in His physical presence. In other words, the centurion did not pray to Jesus over a distance, but he had to send the request to Jesus in His physical presence for the miracle to occur.
And with Lazarus, it is the same thing. Lazarus did not come out of the tomb until Jesus came into the physical presence of Lazarus.
Thus, it is the same today. I have notice many more miracles, (when I need them) when praying in front Jesus in the Eucharist, then when praying elsewhere.

Father Hardon says that in the Eucharist, “Jesus wants to work miracles”. I have personally experienced this truth.

Has anyone else noticed this fact?
 
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dcdurel:
Thus, only in Catholic Churches do we have Jesus in His humanity.
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Hebrews 8, 9 and 10 says differently.

Hey, dont get on me, Im told this book is canonized by the RCC.
 
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geno75:
Hebrews 8, 9 and 10 says differently.

Hey, dont get on me, Im told this book is canonized by the RCC.
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I just want to correct one small thing. The word “canonize” means “declare a deceased person is a saint”.

When the bishops at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage “set the Canon”, that means they created a definitive list (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) of which books were inspired. The writings that were deemed not to be inspired were not included in the Canon. In this case, “canon” is another word for scripture. So the Church “set the scripture” it did not declare scripture to be a saint.
 
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dcdurel:
The Church teaches that since He is present in His body, then, His muscles, bones, skin, etc. are present. His whole body is present. See the Roman Catechism.
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The Catechism of the Catholic Church is 2800+ paragraphs. Could you point more specifically to where it teaches about muscles, bones, skin, etc?
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dcdurel:
Now, as Father Hardon pointed out, when Jesus walked the earth more miracles happened when people came into the physical presence of Jesus, then when they did not. That was one of the attractions of Jesus, was His miracles, which all occured when people made requests to Him in His physical presence.
Someone wrote:
With all due respect, I believe Father Hardon is mistaken. Off the top of my head, the centurion’s son was cured at a distance. And Lazarus came out the tomb at Jesus’s call, not because he was led by the hand.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
That someone was me. Earlier:
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dcdurel:
Father Hardon points out that when Jesus walked the earth in Isreal, people were not healed, either physically or spiritually until they came in contact with His physical presence.
Click to expand...
When you can accurately relate what Father Hardon points out, I’ll tell you if I can agree with him or not.

tee
 
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tee_eff_em:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is 2800+ paragraphs. Could you point more specifically to where it teaches about muscles, bones, skin, etc?
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Hi Tee,

I believe that DC was speaking of the Catechism of the Council of Trent (also known as the Roman Catechism) and not the Catechism of the Catholic Church (our most recent catechism). The Roman Catechism’s section on the Holy Eucharist contains this point:
Here the pastor should explain that in this Sacrament are contained not only the true body of. Christ and all the constituents of a true body, such as bones and sinews, but also Christ whole and entire.
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This point can be found in various other catechisms.

St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa (Whether The Whole Dimensive Quantity of Christ’s Body is in This Sacrament?) renders it like this:
. . .since the substance of Christ’s body is not really deprived of its dimensive quantity and its other accidents, hence it comes that by reason of real concomitance the whole dimensive quantity of Christ’s body and all its other accidents are in this sacrament.
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What do you think Tee?
DC, excellent post by the way!

God Bless,
VC
 
Verbum Caro:
What do you think Tee?
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Since you ask, I think:
  • I suspected as much about the catechism reference
  • Even when referring to “bones and sinews”, the Roman Catechism is not teaching anything like “physical presence”, rather it is teaching “real presence”.
  • Ditto St Thomas Aquinas
  • **dcdurel **asserts that by “substantially present” the Church means “physically present”, but has yet to support such.
  • His appeal to dictionary definitions and the order thereof is similarly unsupported and oh so much hand-waving. (While I myself have not surveyed anything like a large sampling of dictionaries, those that I have surveyed seem evenly split on whether a bodily-definition or an empirical-definition appears first under the adjective “physical”)
  • While I’m still curious about exactly what Father Hardon points out, in the end it is of little consequence. The gospels are *about *Our Lord’s time of physical presence in the world – It is harldy surprising that miracles should be recorded in his physical proximity.
And I am loath to discount or devalue those miracles recorded in other parts of the New Testament, in the Old Testament, and those recorded by the Church in the time since (eg in the causes of candidates for canonization), which took place at a remove from Our Lord’s “physical” and often even from his “real” presence.

tee
 
Hi Tee,

Even though you didn’t ask what I think about what you think. . .😉
  • Ok.
  • Ok.
  • Ok.
  • I’ll await DC’s response.
  • I neither affirm or deny.
  • Understood. Good point.
God Bless.
VC
 
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Eden:
I just want to correct one small thing. The word “canonize” means “declare a deceased person is a saint”.

When the bishops at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage “set the Canon”, that means they created a definitive list (through the guidance of the Holy Spirit) of which books were inspired. The writings that were deemed not to be inspired were not included in the Canon. In this case, “canon” is another word for scripture. So the Church “set the scripture” it did not declare scripture to be a saint.
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The word Canon means List or an offical measure. It could be a list of Laws, books or saints.
 
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tee_eff_em:
Since you ask, I think:
Even when referring to “bones and sinews”, the Roman Catechism is not teaching anything like “physical presence”, rather it is teaching “real presence”.
Click to expand...
What does the Church mean by “real presence”.
“The principal ways by which Christ is present in the Church are gradually revealed in the Mass. He is present firstly in the assembly of the faithful, gathered in his name; he is present in his word, which is read in the Church and commented upon in the Homily; he is present in the minister; he is present finally, and above all else, in the Eucharistic species – a totally unique presence because in the sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ is wholly and entirely present, God and man, substantially and without interruption. It is precisely for this reason that the presence of Christ in the sacred species is called real: ‘This presence is called “real” not to exclude the idea that the others are “real” too, but rather to indicate presence par excellence’” (Mysterium Fidei).
Thus, the Church teaches in the Eucharist Jesus is present as a “unique” presence. Unique means ONE AND ONLY. There is no other presence of Jesus like He is present in the Eucharist. What makes His presence unique in the Eucharist? The Church teaches in this definition that this presence is unique, because He is present “wholly and entirely present, God and man, substantially and without interruption.”
Now, we know Jesus is present as God everywhere, “He is present firstly in the assembly of the faithful, gathered in his name; he is present in his word, which is read in the Church and commented upon in the Homily; he is present in the minister.”
But ONLY in the Eucharist is He present as both God and man. This is why His presence is called “a totally unique presence”
I repeat, what many, many deny, that ONLY in the Eucharist is Jesus present as both God and man. That is why the Church uses the word “unique”. The sign of how Jesus is present (bread and wine) is not being defined as unique,** it is His presence that is being defined as “unique.”** His presence is unique because ONLY in the Eucharist is Jesus present on earth as God and Man. This has always been the teaching handed down by the apostles.
Thus, when the Church speaks of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, or that Jesus is “substantially and without interruption” the Church is refering to His “unique” presences as God and Man, a presence “par excellance”.
Thus, “unique presence”, “**real presence” in the Eucharist and **“substantially and without interruption” all refer to the same thing, that Jesus is present as God and Man. It is a “unique” presence because Jesus is NOT present as both God and Man on earth anywhere else.
Since Jesus is normally present as Man on earth, ONLY in the Eucharist, (unique presence), then we recognize His body as being present only in the Eucharist. The ordinary, usual definition of the word “physical” refers to the body or to what is material. Look it up in any dictionary. Don’t blindly accept a definition of physical, by dissidents, which is obscure and rarely used. The normal definition of “physically present” simply means that Jesus is present with His body.
Thus, to say that Jesus is physically present, we are simply saying His Body is present, a living body. If we say that Jesus is NOT phyically present in the Eucharist, then we are denying His bodily presence. This is heresy. You cannot be Catholic if you deny the “bodily” presence of Jesus in the Eucharist.
If you deny the “physical” (bodily) presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, then you are not Catholic.
If you say, that by physical, you mean “that which can be measured”, then you are using an obscure, usual meaning of the word “physical” which is not normally used in ordinary speech. Why use an obscure meaning, unless to confuse others? Why not just use the word empirical directly? Why not be clear? Because everyone knows the Church teaches that in the Eucharist the presence of Jesus cannot be detected by the senses, thus they know Jesus is not empirically present.
Dissidents use this obscure meaning ONLY to confuse Catholics, who normally use the ordinary meaning of the word “physical” to refer to what is material or bodily as opposed to spiritual. Thus, dissidents try to establish the unusual meaning as normal definition, when using their arguements. When Catholics blindly buy into this false idea, then they are confused when dissidents say that Jesus is NOT physically present, because ordinarly Catholics take still take the word physical to refer to what is material or bodily, as they should.

Make dissidents go to a dictionary. Note the first and usual meaning of the word physical. Do not let them substitute an unusual meaning that we never normally use in our ordinary conversation. Ask them why they don’t use the normal definition?
 
Lets notice more tricks of dissidents.
Ask them if Jesus’ body is pesent in the Eucharist? Ask them if this body is a spirit or a material body. Bodies by definition are NOT spirits. They are material by definition. Bones, sinews, muscles are material, not spirits. Even glorified bodies are material and not spirits. Point out that the normal defiintion of the word physical refers to what is bodily or material.
Then watch them hem and haw and jump around and try to avoid the normal definition. They won’t accept the normal definition. They they will try to add the meaning “empirical” to the normal definition and won’t accept the normal definition by itself.
Do we have to accept all the meanings of the word “body” when refering to Jesus in the Eucharist?
For example, the word body has many other meanings also;
A mass of matter that is distinct from other masses: a body of water; a celestial body.
A collection or quantity, as of material or information: the body of evidence.
Consistency of substance, as in paint, textiles, or wine: a sauce with body.
Do we have to accept the all the meanings of the word body, when refering to the body of Jesus in the Eucharist? Of course not! Then why do we blindly fall into the lies of dissidents and accept their nonsense that we must accept all the definitions of the word physical, in addition to the normal definition? Why can’t they accept the normal definition by itself, just as we accept the normal definition of the word body by itself. Why do dissidents find it necessary to add an obscure meaning to the normal definition?
Thus we see how dissidents obscure the truth, instead of trying to make things clear. Those who love Jesus love the truth, for Jesus is the truth. It is not a good sign if someone always tries to obscure the truth.
 
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dcdurel:
Jesus is sacramentally present, but that includes physical presence.
Jesus is present in His Body and blood, that is, in His humanity. The Church teaches that since He is present in His body, then, His muscles, bones, skin, etc. are present. His whole body is present. See the Roman Catechism. That is what the Church means by substantially present. The Church also calls it a “unique” presence, in referring to the same thing. In other words, unique does not refer to the sign of His presence (bread and wine), but the actual mode of His presence itself that is unique, (body and blood)

Thus, only in the Eucharist is Jesus present substantially, that is body, blood, soul and divinity. All the other presences of Jesus is only in His divinity. Thus, only in Catholic Churches do we have Jesus in His humanity.

Now, the usual definition of the word “physical” is :
“Of or relating to the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit.” (dictionarly.com)

Other dictionaries also say, relating to what is “material, bodily, natural.”
Thus, since Jesus’ body is glorified, but still not spiritual, because by definition bodies are not spirits, then we can say perfectly well that Jesus is physically present in the Eucharist. In other words, His body is present.
Some people will try to object by saying that “physical” means “empirical”, (that which can be measured). That definition is not found in all dictionaries, and when it is found, it is usually the third or fourth definition. In other words, it is not the usual meaning of the word.
Thus, since the usual meaning of the word physical means “relating to the body”, then it is perfectly correct to say that Jesus is physically present. It is incorrect to say that He is NOT physically present, because that would mean His body is not present.
Whenever people disagree, then simply take out a dictionary and look up the first definition. We must not let dissidents re-define meanings of words to suit their purposes. When they try to bring up the third or fourth definition, simply say, that is nice, but that is not the usual definition of the word “physical”.
So, we must say that only in the Eucharist is Jesus physically present on earth. In Protestant Churches Jesus is not physically present.

Now, as Father Hardon pointed out, when Jesus walked the earth more miracles happened when people came into the physical presence of Jesus, then when they did not. That was one of the attractions of Jesus, was His miracles, which all occured when people made requests to Him in His physical presence.
Someone wrote:
The centurians son was not cured until the centurions request came to Jesus himself as He walked the earth, in His physical presence. In other words, the centurion did not pray to Jesus over a distance, but he had to send the request to Jesus in His physical presence for the miracle to occur.
And with Lazarus, it is the same thing. Lazarus did not come out of the tomb until Jesus came into the physical presence of Lazarus.
Thus, it is the same today. I have notice many more miracles, (when I need them) when praying in front Jesus in the Eucharist, then when praying elsewhere.
Father Hardon says that in the Eucharist, “Jesus wants to work miracles”. I have personally experienced this truth.

Has anyone else noticed this fact?
Click to expand...
Will you share some of the many miracles you have noticed?
 
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dcdurel:
What does the Church mean by “real presence”.
“The principal ways by which Christ is present in the Church are gradually revealed in the Mass. He is present firstly in the assembly of the faithful, gathered in his name; he is present in his word, which is read in the Church and commented upon in the Homily; he is present in the minister; he is present finally, and above all else, in the Eucharistic species – a totally unique presence because in the sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ is wholly and entirely present, God and man, substantially and without interruption. It is precisely for this reason that the presence of Christ in the sacred species is called real: ‘This presence is called “real” not to exclude the idea that the others are “real” too, but rather to indicate presence par excellence’” (Mysterium Fidei).
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Absolutely. And not an inkling of the word “physical(ly)” to be found there. In fact, the only occurence of the word “physical” in that document, Mysterium Fidei, comes a few paragraphs later (with emphases added):
For what now lies beneath the aforementioned species is not what was there before, but something completely different; and not just in the estimation of Church belief but in reality, since once the substance or nature of the bread and wine has been changed into the body and blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and the wine except for the species—beneath which Christ is present whole and entire in His **physical **“reality,” corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place.
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Likewise, if you read through the rest of the CDW’s The Year of the Eucharist - Suggestions and Proposals 😉 , you will find 3 occurences of the word “physical”, none of which refer to the real presence (twice it refers to posture and once to the ‘“Christian” sense of physical pain and moral sufferings’)
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dcdurel:
Now, we know Jesus is present as God everywhere, “He is present firstly in the assembly of the faithful, gathered in his name; he is present in his word, which is read in the Church and commented upon in the Homily; he is present in the minister.”
But ONLY in the Eucharist is He present as both God and man. This is why His presence is called “a totally unique presence”
I repeat, what many, many deny, that ONLY in the Eucharist is Jesus present as both God and man. That is why the Church uses the word “unique”. The sign of how Jesus is present (bread and wine) is not being defined as unique,** it is His presence that is being defined as “unique.”** His presence is unique because ONLY in the Eucharist is Jesus present on earth as God and Man. This has always been the teaching handed down by the apostles.
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Do you mean to assert that Jesus is sometimes present (in the assembly? in the word? in the minister?) *not *as God and Man!? That somehow the hypostatic union is rent asunder!? I do not believe this to be the teaching of the Church?
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dcdurel:
Thus, when the Church speaks of the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, or that Jesus is “substantially and without interruption” the Church is refering to His “unique” presences as God and Man, a presence “par excellance”.
Thus, “unique presence”, “**real presence” in the Eucharist and **“substantially and without interruption” all refer to the same thing, that Jesus is present as God and Man. It is a “unique” presence because Jesus is NOT present as both God and Man on earth anywhere else.
Since Jesus is normally present as Man on earth, ONLY in the Eucharist, (unique presence), then we recognize His body as being present only in the Eucharist.
Click to expand...
Do you mean to say that Jesus was not God when he was present on Earth in his ministry? :confused: That is surely not the teaching of the Church.
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dcdurel:
The ordinary, usual definition of the word “physical” refers to the body or to what is material. Look it up in any dictionary. Don’t blindly accept a definition of physical, by dissidents, which is obscure and rarely used. The normal definition of “physically present” simply means that Jesus is present with His body.
Click to expand...
If you wish to continue using a single, technical sense of the word “physical”, to the exclusion of all others, I cannot stop you. I can only reiterate that the Church describes Christ’s presence in the Eucharist not as “physical” but as “real”, and in assent and submission I presume she has her reasons for doing so.

tee
 
DC,

Seems things may have gotten off track of what you originally intended but let me throw in my 2 cents.
Yes, Yes and Yes I agree with you. My prayer and meditation is so much better and deeper when sitting before the Blessed Sacrament. The feeling of peace and love is so overwhelming. This is probably a poor anology but I’m addicted to it like a drug. And I never go away dissappointed when I decide to go out of my way to spend some time alone with Jesus.
I just ran into a man whose entire life has just because his church started perpetual adoration and he decided to give one hour per week in adoration.
On a retreat I heard this story from the priest giving the talks. JP2 was visiting Baltimore (I think) and a group asked him to stop by for a blessing for a confirmation. His schedule was all set and he didn’t have any time available but he decided to go anyway. That sent security into a frenzy. The church had to be secured and they sent in bomb sniffing dogs. When the dogs entered the church they ran right to the tabernacle and started barking. The type of bark to indicate that a person was hiding behind something. Seems that animals may be smarter than humans sometimes :).
 
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dcdurel:
Since Jesus is present in the tabernacle with His body, blood, soul and divinity we say He is physically present, since physical refers to material, body, natural. Thus when we approach Jesus in the Eucharist we can expect many more miracles than when we come to Him only in His Divinity, just as many more miracles were worked when the people of Israel came into His physical presence when He walked the earth visibly.
Click to expand...
We say He is Sacramentally present- not physically. Physically means it can be detected with the senses (provided you have the necessary instruments to do so). There is no test that can see if a Host is a consecrated one or not- we must take it by Faith. Except in cases like the Miracle of Lanciano, there is no physical change whatsoever.
 
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