Jesus points to Authority

[ChristianSurfer]

Matthew 23

Seven Woes

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Does this seem to suggest no matter how corrupt the church may get it still has the authority to teach?

Does this seem to go against the notion “if I see something/anything wrong I’ll leave the church.”

 

[Scoobyshme]

People have the wrong idea about the Church, usually because Satan and his minions (Marxists/leftists/liberals/atheists, etc.) try to convince them that the Church only contains the sinless. It’s the opposite. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum of Saints.

 

[JRKH]

Does this seem to suggest no matter how corrupt the church may get it still has the authority to teach?

Does this seem to go against the notion “if I see something/anything wrong I’ll leave the church.”

Yes and no.

First of all we believe that Church teachings are inerrant and therefore “The Church” cannot be corrupt. Members{/u] of the Church can be corrupt and cause problems but that is fundementally different than The Church being corrupt.

The passage you refer to speaks to a fundemental issue of obedience to legitimate authority. Under the Old covenent that Authority resided in those who “sit on the seat of Moses”. Under the New covenent the authority resides in the seat of Peter.

Now as to obedience, even to something we (personally) don’t understand or think might be wrong, I use an analogy of a King and Steward…
A Young King leaves on a long journey. He places in charge a trusted Steward. This Steward rules the kingdom wisely for a time bu then begins to oppress the people and causes suffering to the kings subjects. These subjects do not rebel against the steward because they are loyal to the king and to his appointed steward.
Finally the King returns and discovers the sins of the Steward and the sufferings of the people. Who will the King punish, the people and the low ranking officials who were loyal to the King through His steward? Or will he punish the corrupt steward and restore/forgive those who only obeyed the legitimate authority?

Peace
James

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes and no.

First of all we believe that Church teachings are inerrant and therefore “The Church” cannot be corrupt. Members{/u] of the Church can be corrupt and cause problems but that is fundementally different than The Church being corrupt.

The passage you refer to speaks to a fundemental issue of obedience to legitimate authority. Under the Old covenent that Authority resided in those who “sit on the seat of Moses”. Under the New covenent the authority resides in the seat of Peter.

Now as to obedience, even to something we (personally) don’t understand or think might be wrong, I use an analogy of a King and Steward…
A Young King leaves on a long journey. He places in charge a trusted Steward. This Steward rules the kingdom wisely for a time bu then begins to oppress the people and causes suffering to the kings subjects. These subjects do not rebel against the steward because they are loyal to the king and to his appointed steward.
Finally the King returns and discovers the sins of the Steward and the sufferings of the people. Who will the King punish, the people and the low ranking officials who were loyal to the King through His steward? Or will he punish the corrupt steward and restore/forgive those who only obeyed the legitimate authority?

Peace
JamesYou are leaving one thing out of your analogy. The king, before leaving, was to leave a wise advisor to help the young steward. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

Now, I understand that this doesn’t prevent wicked and corrupt people from being leaders in the Church. But it would prevent false teachings from coming out of the Church.

 

[JRKH]

You are leaving one thing out of your analogy. The king, before leaving, was to leave a wise advisor to help the young steward. Jesus promised that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

Now, I understand that this doesn’t prevent wicked and corrupt people from being leaders in the Church. But it would prevent false teachings from coming out of the Church.

Well…Analogies are always flawed in one way or another…

My point with the analogy was more about how God does not punish those who faithfully and innocently follow their legitimate pastoral leaders. If those leaders teach falsely it is they who will be dealt with harshly when they stand before The King.

Peace
James

 

[ChristianSurfer]

Great! thanks!

So this whole notion of “a priest says this I’m leaving!” or individual bad situations that makes a person leave the RCC completely, shouldnt happen because we have the authority that is the chair of peter today?

 

[NotWorthy]

Well…Analogies are always flawed in one way or another…

My point with the analogy was more about how God does not punish those who faithfully and innocently follow their legitimate pastoral leaders. If those leaders teach falsely it is they who will be dealt with harshly when they stand before The King.

Peace
James

Yes, you are right. And if an individual splits off from the teaching of the Church, then yes, they are answerable to God. But the Church Herself, cannot deviate from the Truth.

 

[JRKH]

Great! thanks!

So this whole notion of “a priest says this I’m leaving!” or individual bad situations that makes a person leave the RCC completely, shouldnt happen because we have the authority that is the chair of peter today?

Basically yes. The Church teaches universally through the “Magisterium” headed by the Pope who is the successor of Peter. This authority is actually shown in the Bible.

Read Matthew 18:15-18 and then read Acts Chapter 15. In these two passages one can see Christ granting authority to The Church to “Bind and Loose” and then one can see the Church excersizing this authority.

When individuals quit the church over, as you say “this whole notion of “a priest says this I’m leaving!” or individual bad situations”, they are placing their own “infallibility” above that of the Spirit Guided Church AND demonstrating that they really do not understand The Church and her teachings (Especially the Eucharist)

Peace
James

 

[NotWorthy]

Great! thanks!

So this whole notion of “a priest says this I’m leaving!” or individual bad situations that makes a person leave the RCC completely, shouldnt happen because we have the authority that is the chair of peter today?

Yes, it would be the same as saying, “Jesus, I knew you built the Church, but Father So-and-so said this, which really ticked me off, and my hatred for him is more powerful than my love for You”.

When put that way, it really does make our squabbles sound petty and pointless, but that is basically what we are doing.

With that being said, if Father So-and-so said that the Church is wrong for condemning abortion, than I would simply walk out of Father So-and-so’s parish and find another. But I would never, ever, leave the Bride of Christ, the Church!