Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison" — Please help!

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CutlerB

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Ok, friends, I have been confused and shaken once more by the Witnesses.

In their June 2013 Watchtower (Study Edition) they have two pages that address these two questions:


  1. *]Who were “the sons of the true God” mentioned at Genesis 6:2, 4 as living before the Flood?
    *]The Bible says that Jesus “preached to the spirits in prison.” (1 Pet. 3:19) What does this mean?

    The Apostles’ Creed says: “descendit ad inferos/he descended into hell”.

    I recall that the common interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 is precisely this “descending into hell”, and that Jesus preached to those righteous men of old, the patriarchs and so forth.

    But isn’t this in CLEAR contradiction to the following verse, which reads:

    [BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 3:20[/BIBLEDRB]

    The Witnesses say that those “spirits in prison” are not the righteous under the Old Covenant, but demons and Satan.
    Clearly, Peter was referring to spirit creatures who chose to join Satan’s rebellion.
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    I am really confused. Please help, if you can.

    Thank you.
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church at vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1R.HTM/__P1Q.HTM has stuff about what that verse in the apostles’ creed means. Here’s an excerpt of some of it:
633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482
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The Catechism’s Citations:
479 Cf. ⇒ Phil 2:10; ⇒ Acts 2:24; ⇒ Rev 1:18; ⇒ Eph 4:9; ⇒ Pss 6:6; ⇒ 88:11-13.
480 Cf. ⇒ Ps 89:49; ⇒ I Sam 28:19; ⇒ Ezek 32:17-32; ⇒ Lk 16:22-26.
481 Roman Catechism 1, 6, 3.
482 Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV
(625): DS 485; ⇒ Mt 27:52-53.
 
Here are the footnotes in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible by Bishop Chancellor.
[19] Spirits that were in prison: See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach, after his death, were not in heaven; nor yet in the hell of the damned: because heaven is no prison: and Christ did not go to preach to the damned.
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[21] Whereunto baptism: Baptism is said to be of the like form with the water by which Noe was saved, because the one was a figure of the other.
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[21] Not the putting away: As much as to say, that baptism has not its efficacy, in order to salvation, from its washing away any bodily filth or dirt; but from its purging the conscience from sin, when accompanied with suitable dispositions in the party, to answer the interrogations made at that time, with relation to faith, the renouncing of Satan with all his works; and the obedience to God’s commandments.
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CutlerB said:
Ok, friends, I have been confused and shaken once more by the Witnesses.

The Witnesses say that those “spirits in prison” are not the righteous under the Old Covenant, but demons and Satan.

I am really confused. Please help, if you can.

Thank you.
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If they are demons…then why would Jesus need to preach to them? What for? What purpose was Jesus going there to preach to them?

newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord’s time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23)

Before you get rattled by these JWs…ask this question:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Following the example of St. Paul…who did the JWs submit their gospel, their interpretation…as correct? Who with apostolic authority assured the JW interpretation as correct?

Try asking them this question and see their reply…🤷
 
First of all, you shouldn’t be shaken by their arguments, because they do not believe in punishment after death, i.e. Hell. Thus, they can’t allow themselves to believe that Jesus preached to the souls in Sheol in 1 Pet. 3:19, because that would mean they are wrong. (For what Jesus said about Sheol, see Lk 16:19-31.)

Second, they depend on pulling individual verses out of context, and putting them together to prove different things. This is called “proof-texting.” My sister has been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 40+ years, and she has never read the Bible as a narrative. She only reads it the way the Watchtower tells her to: “Here’s a truth. Read this verse, now read this one. That proves it. Here’s another truth… etc.”

That is exactly what they have done with the verses they quoted to you. No, it is not “clear.” It is about as “clear” as their teaching that Jesus was not nailed to a cross, but to a tree (or a stake), because of 1 Pet. 2:24. They pick that verse out, and use it as a proof text, ignoring the other 25+ verses that use the word “cross.”

Third, they have their own translation of the Bible. It’s not an accurate translation. They add and subtract words to “clarify” the meaning. Example: they quote, “the sons of the true God.” They added “true.” Any time they quote a verse in the Watchtower (or any of their publications) look it up in your own Bible.

Gen 6:4 contains the key phrase, “men that were of old”. In light of the following verses - that they fail to notice - I believe this paragraph (vv. 1-4) is the historical setup for Noah’s story, an explanation of why so many men - not Nephilim, but humans - were wicked.

If you believe in the Trinity, and Hell, then you have no reason to listen to any arguments that they put forth. They are so wrong about these essentials of faith that everything else they say is suspect.
 
CutlerB said:
  1. *]Who were “the sons of the true God” mentioned at Genesis 6:2, 4 as living before the Flood?
    *]The Bible says that Jesus “preached to the spirits in prison.” (1 Pet. 3:19) What does this mean?
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  1. Haydock Commentary says “the sons of God” stands for the descendants of Seth and Enos while descendants of Cain are called children of men.

    Genesis 6:2:
    The sons of God. The descendants of Seth and Enos are here called Sons of God, from their religion and piety: whereas the ungodly race of Cain, who by their carnal affections lay grovelling upon the earth, are called the children of men. The unhappy consequence of the former marrying with the latter, ought to be a warning to Christians to be very circumspect in their marriages; and not to suffer themselves to be determined in choice by their carnal passion, to the prejudice of virtue or religion. Ch.
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    The Roman Catechism teaches one reason Christ descended into Hell was to proclaim His power and authority there as on earth and in Heaven.

    Article V: “He descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead”:
    Another reason why Christ the Lord descended into hell is that there, as well as in heaven and on earth, He might proclaim His power and authority, and that every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
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    And here, who is not filled with admiration and astonishment when he contemplates the infinite love of God for man! Not satisfied with having undergone for our sake a most cruel death, He penetrates the inmost recesses of the earth to transport into bliss the souls whom He so dearly loved and whose liberation from thence He had achieved.
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pablope said:
If they are demons…then why would Jesus need to preach to them? What for? What purpose was Jesus going there to preach to them?
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That was what I thought first, as well. I want to make clear that I do not believe anything they say, but I just browse through their magazines on the Internet every once in a while to see what weird road they are taking now. I have a good friend who is a JW, and we sometimes get into discussions, that’s why I like to be “up to date”.

I will quote the entire article for convenience.
The apostle Peter identifies these spirits as those who had “once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days.” (1 Pet. 3:20) Clearly, Peter was referring to spirit creatures who chose to join Satan’s rebellion. Jude mentions the angels who “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place,” saying that God “has reserved [them] with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”—Jude 6.
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In what way were spirit creatures disobedient in Noah’s day? Before the Deluge, these wicked spirits materialized in human form—something that God had not purposed for them. (Gen. 6:2, 4) Furthermore, those angels who had sex with women were practicing a perversion. God did not create spirit creatures to engage in sexual relations with women. (Gen. 5:2) These wicked, disobedient angels will be destroyed in God’s due time. For now, as Jude notes, they are in a condition of “dense darkness”—a spiritual prison, so to speak.
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When and how did Jesus preach to these “spirits in prison”? Peter writes that this occurred after Jesus was “made alive in the spirit.” (1 Pet. 3:18, 19) Note, too, that Peter says that Jesus “preached.” Peter’s use of the past tense suggests that the preaching occurred before Peter wrote his first letter. It seems, then, that sometime after his resurrection, Jesus made a proclamation to the wicked spirits regarding the fully justified punishment they are due to receive. It was not a preaching that held out any hope for them. It was a preaching of judgment. (Jonah 1:1, 2) Once Jesus had demonstrated his faith and loyalty to death and then was resurrected — proving that the Devil indeed had no hold on him — Jesus had the basis for making such a con- demnatory proclamation. — John 14:30; 16:8-11.
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In the future, Jesus will bind and throw into the abyss both Satan and those angels. (Luke 8:30, 31; Rev. 20:1-3) Until that time, these disobedient spirits are in a condition of dense spiritual darkness, and their final destruction is certain.—Rev. 20:7-10.
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The bold bit is their answer to why Jesus would “preach” to those spirits.
pablope said:
Before you get rattled by these JWs…ask this question:

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Following the example of St. Paul…who did the JWs submit their gospel, their interpretation…as correct? Who with apostolic authority assured the JW interpretation as correct?

Try asking them this question and see their reply…🤷
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I don’t believe any of what they teach, such as a spiritual Resurrection of Our Lord, the non-existence of hell and the Trinity, two-class system, no immortality of the soul, etc. But the problem is that they are so good at twisting verses and taking you off track in discussions, that I haven’t managed to really communicate any Truth to my witness friend at all.
Ruthie_again said:
First of all, you shouldn’t be shaken by their arguments, because they do not believe in punishment after death, i.e. Hell. Thus, they can’t allow themselves to believe that Jesus preached to the souls in Sheol in 1 Pet. 3:19, because that would mean they are wrong. (For what Jesus said about Sheol, see Lk 16:19-31.)

If you believe in the Trinity, and Hell, then you have no reason to listen to any arguments that they put forth. They are so wrong about these essentials of faith that everything else they say is suspect.
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I believe in both those two, and in nothing that JWs teach. But all those words like “Sheol, Hades, Gehenna” and whatnot, have me muddled. 🤷 They juggle them around saying “this means that, but not hell” and so I really don’t know what to think when I read those names.
 
By the way, I have just looked it up in the Ignatius Study Bible that I have here, and it says the following:
1 Peter 3:18
At first sight, this would seem to refer to the Resurrection, for this is how the verb “make alive” is often used in the NT. Not all agree, however. Given the tradition that links these passages with the descent of Jesus into Hades, some take the expression “made alive in the spirit” to mean that Christ was “kept live in his soul”. The question is whether Peter is talking about the activity of jesus on Holy Saturday, when his soul descended to the dead without his body, or at some time subsequent to Easter Sunday, when his body and soul were forever reunited. No firm answer can be given until we consider what follows.
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The long paragraph that follows then goes on to list different interpretations throughout history. It says that the word “pneumata” for “spirits” is never used to mean souls of the dead, with the single exception of Hebrews 12:23. Apparently, there has been an ancient Jewish tradition that the “sons of God” in Genesis 6:4 are rebel angels called “the Watchers”, who corrupted the world before the flood. (1 Enoch 6-21).

To cut a long story short, the Ignatius Study Bibles sees the “spirits in prison” to most likely mean those rebel angels, and not the souls of the dead under the Old Covenant.
 
CutlerB said:
By the way, I have just looked it up in the Ignatius Study Bible that I have here, and it says the following:

The long paragraph that follows then goes on to list different interpretations throughout history. It says that the word “pneumata” for “spirits” is never used to mean souls of the dead, with the single exception of Hebrews 12:23. Apparently, there has been an ancient Jewish tradition that the “sons of God” in Genesis 6:4 are rebel angels called “the Watchers”, who corrupted the world before the flood. (1 Enoch 6-21).

To cut a long story short, the Ignatius Study Bibles sees the “spirits in prison” to most likely mean those rebel angels, and not the souls of the dead under the Old Covenant.
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:eek: so the Apostles Creed is wrong ? And, the CC is errant ?

Is the Ignatius Study Bible the last word ?
 
brb3 said:
:eek: so the Apostles Creed is wrong ? And, the CC is errant ?

Is the Ignatius Study Bible the last word ?
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That’s not what I am saying. It simply provides another explanation. After all, 1 Peter 4:6 is very clear and fits perfectly with the Apostles’ Creed.
 
CutlerB said:
That’s not what I am saying. It simply provides another explanation. After all, 1 Peter 4:6 is very clear and fits perfectly with the Apostles’ Creed.
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Yes …Peter 4:6 …clearly taking of OT mankind, not fallen angels.
 
CutlerB said:
Is it not? :confused:
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Looked a second time @ 1 Peter. 3:19-20…its clearly talking of OT mankind, during days of Noah, prior to flood.
Also, same applies to Peter 4:6 …but here to the Post -Flood Gentiles. The Greeks, the Romans, …Socrates, Plato, Aristotle …and even, especially …the Epicureans !!!
 
brb3 said:
Looked a second time @ 1 Peter. 3:19-20…its clearly talking of OT mankind, during days of Noah, prior to flood.
Also, same applies to Peter 4:6 …but here to the Post -Flood Gentiles. The Greeks, the Romans, …Socrates, Plato, Aristotle …and even, especially …the Epicureans !!!
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Why do you think so?
 
Ask the JWs what their founder’s (Charles Taze Russell) qualifications were to privately interpret scripture.

Hint: he had none. Never a seminarian. Never studied theology. Not ordained by any authority. This, in fact, violates 2 Peter 1:20.

Peter writes that the ignorant and unstable twist and distort the scriptures (2 Peter 3:16).

Charles Taze Russell had a 7th grade education. He knew neither Greek nor Hebrew. Ignorant. Charles Taze Russell was mentally abusive to his wife and was sued for divorce and for the infamous “miracle wheat” fraud. Unstable.

Charles Taze Russell puts a face on the scripture: “the ignorant and unstable.”

JWs are betting their eternity on one uneducated and unauthorized man’s personal opinion.
 
If you actually read the bible you will see it clearly explained that those who died in the days of Noah were kept in a place seperate which was seperate to and beneath the bones of the Giants meaning the nephelim.

It is also clear that references to the sons of God is talking about angels wether good or bad. Son of Adam or son of man is for humans.

If you read all 4 gospels you will see one of them says Jesus decended to hell and preached to them. THOSE THAT BELIEVED were saved. I take that to mean not all of them so it wasn’t only the good that were kept in that seperate place.

As for the men of old, that deserves it’s own thread.
 
Aussieman88 said:
If you actually read the bible you will see it clearly explained that those who died in the days of Noah were kept in a place seperate which was seperate to and beneath the bones of the Giants meaning the nephelim.

It is also clear that references to the sons of God is talking about angels wether good or bad. Son of Adam or son of man is for humans.

If you read all 4 gospels you will see one of them says Jesus decended to hell and preached to them. THOSE THAT BELIEVED were saved. I take that to mean not all of them so it wasn’t only the good that were kept in that seperate place.

As for the men of old, that deserves it’s own thread.
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Could you provide the references? 🙂
 
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