Jesus rebukes Our Lady

[momstheword]

Hi all,
I need help explaining the passages where Jesus seems to admonish His mother. I’ve already told her (my friend) that such a rebuke would have been a violation of the 4th commandment. She responded that an admonition by the Lord would not be disrespectful. Obviously, she begins with the premise that the Blessed Mother sinned, and therefore Jesus was speaking here as her Lord, not her Son. Here is the text of what she sent.
**"She refers to her need for a Savior (Luke 1:47), and she’s sometimes rebuked
by Jesus (Luke 2:48-50, John 2:3-4). To suggest that in Luke 1:47 Mary meant
that she was saved from ever sinning is an assumption that can’t be proven,
and that’s not how the term is used elsewhere in Scripture. God is
repeatedly referred to as a Savior because He saves sinners, not because He
prevents people from ever sinning. What Biblical precedent do we have for
the Catholic interpretation of Luke 1:47?

In response to John 2:3-4 - the same language Jesus uses in response to Mary
(“What do I have to do with you?”) is used by the demons when they’re trying
to distance themselves from Jesus (Mark 1:24, Luke 8:28, etc.). The phrase
Jesus uses is a negative one, and suggests that He’s rebuking or correcting
Mary. Admonishing in the Lord is not dishonoring - so Jesus was not sinning
to do so.

Not only do we see Jesus rebuking Mary in Scripture, but we also see Mary
distrusting Jesus and suggesting that He did something wrong (Luke 2:41-50).
She was anxious about Him, and she asks, “Son, why have you treated us this
way?” (verse 48). When Jesus explains that He had to be in His Father’s
house, Mary doesn’t understand (verse 50). Not only does this passage pose a
problem for the claim that Mary was sinless, but it also contradicts the
claim that Mary was aware of and cooperating with Jesus’ Messianic work all
along. Clearly, if Mary was anxious about Jesus, as though He couldn’t be
trusted alone at age 12, and if she accused Him of mistreating her and
didn’t understand what He meant by His simple response to her, it’s
implausible to claim that Mary was fully aware of Jesus’ identity and fully
cooperating with Him.**"

 

[VociMike]

Mary said to Jesus “They have no wine.” What possible reason could there be in that statement for Jesus to rebuke her? Notice that her response (“Do whatever He tells you”) does not sound in any way like she thought it was a rebuke. So there’s no cause for rebuke, and her reaction is not the reaction of one who is rebuked.

As for the passage in Luke, Mary’s lack of knowledge is not the same as sin. Your friend is just reading sin into the passage. Again, what is the sin in asking (in astonishment, as the scriptures point out) “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”?

Your friend is reading these passages through the filter of her tradition.

 

[asquared]

another thing missing in these passages is “tone of voice” and body language. We have the words, but not the way they were delivered. Mary herself had apparently no trouble at all understanding her Son’s intent and tone of his response, and with perfect trust and confidence told the waiters: Do whatever He tells you.

 

[Marilena]

A good book to look at to help explain this even further is the study book " Christ’s Mother and Ours" By Father Oscar Lukefahr, C.M. Take a look in Chapter 2 entitled" What the New Testament says about Mary" Go to page 29, look down towards the bottom, it is the third paragraph from the bottom. It explains in good detail about this question. ( from Luke 2:49) You can order this book free from the Catholic Home Study Service. Here is the web link :

amm.org/chss.htm

Your friend is mistaken, and I wouldn’t give her any credit. She does not know about the Blessed Virgin, and she should look into getting this book, and so should you. It is a very remarkable book. Remember, it is FREE of charge. It is a course, yes, but it is a free course by mail. It will help youknow more about Mary, and
why Catholics are devoted to her, and so on.

 

[johnshelby]

God speaking to Satan in Genesis…

Genesis 3:15 (King James Version)
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God wouldn’t have been speaking of Eve for several reasons…

1st… children would have been Adam’s seed…
only one woman gave birth without the help of a man’s seed,
Mary…
2nd… Eve’s sin meant she didn’t have enmity toward Satan…
3rd… Eve’s children didn’t have enmity toward Satan since
they sinned…

so, God could only have been speaking of Mary… we believe
the enmity He put between Mary and Satan, is what enabled
her to remain sinless… she abhored sin… we also know about
the enmity between Mary’s seed, Jesus, and Satan…

 

[Superstar905]

THink of it this way, would Jesus, who is divine and human, break the fifth commandment and DISHONOUR his mother? Also, think about the premise being used here. Your friend is seperating the natures of Christ, just to attempt to justify her point, one she has no right doing.

That is what the person you are talking to is suggesting, and that alone shows this person has an incorrect interpretation of the scriptures.

 

[Marilena]

Superstar905:

THink of it this way, would Jesus, who is divine and human, break the fourth commandment and DISHONOUR his mother? Also, think about the premise being used here. Your friend is seperating the natures of Christ, just to attempt to justify her point, one she has no right doing.

That is what the person you are talking to is suggesting, and that alone shows this person has an incorrect interpretation of the scriptures.

 

[johnshelby]

and as for the rebuke, if Jesus had been rebuking Mary,
at Cana, then turned around and did as she requested,
that would seem… contrary…

and when Jesus was lost for 3 days, i can only use my
own mother as an idea of how Mary would have felt and
reacted… if Jesus got off with only a question, then he
got off light… Son of God or not… lol

after all, Mary was a woman, a creature… she knew Jesus’
divinity, but she also knew He was the ‘son’ she bore in
her womb… and would react accordingly…

people grasp at anything to try and prove their point,
but the fact is, that Mary was a singular example of
God working thru a human… that will never again be
repeated… not Moses, not David, not Elias, not
John the Baptist, no other creature ever was used to
fulfil God’s plan in so monumental a way as Mary…

she deserves our respect and to be honored…

well, that’s my opinion, anyway…

 

[edward_george]

I think the commentary on the old Douay-Rheims Bible says it well:

4 “What is that to me”… These words of our Saviour, spoken to his mother, have been understood by some commentators as harsh, they not considering the next following verse: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye, which plainly shows that his mother knew of the miracle that he was to perform, and that it was at her request he wrought it; besides the manner of speaking the words as to the tone, and the countenance shown at the same time, which could only be known to those who were present, or from what had followed: for words indicating anger in one tone of voice, would be understood quite the reverse in another.

drbo.org/chapter/50002.htm

-ACEGC

 

[bones_IV]

Why would our Lady be rebuked for something that isn’t her fault? The argument that our Lady was rebuked by our Lord holds no ground. Once again many Protestants like the one you encountered are just simply out to discredit Mother Church. Beware of these heretics. Ask your Protestant friend if Mary wasn’t sinless, then how could Jesus be born from an impure breed?

 

[RCCDefender]

Misunderstandings about Jesus “rebuking” Mary
Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - when Jesus asks, “Who are my mother, and sisters and brothers?,” some Protestants argue that Jesus is rebuking Mary in order to denigrate her. To the contrary, when Jesus’ comments are read in light of Luke 8:5-15 and the parable of the sower which Jesus taught right before His question, Jesus is actually implying that Mary has already received the word as the sower of good ground and is bearing fruit. Jesus is teaching that others must, like Mary, also receive the word and obey it.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - Jesus’ question about “who are my mother, and sisters and brothers” was also made in reference to Psalm 69:8-9. Jesus the Prophet was answering the psalmist’s prophecy that those closest to Him would betray Him at His passion. Jesus is emphasizing the spiritual family’s importance over the biological family, and the importance of being faithful to Him. While many were unfaithful to Jesus, Mary remained faithful to Him, even to the point of standing at the foot of the Cross.

Matt. 12:48; Mark 3:33; Luke 8:21 - finally, to argue that Jesus rebuked Mary is to argue that Jesus violated the Torah, here, the 4th commandment. This argument is blasphemous because it essentially says that God committed sin by dishonoring His Mother.

Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.

Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.

**John 2:4 - this is another example that Protestants use to diminish Mary’s significance. Jesus’ question to Mary, “what have you to do with me?” does no such thing. To the contrary, Jesus’ question illustrates the importance of Mary’s role in the kingdom. Jesus’ question is in reality an invitation to His mother to intercede on behalf of all believers and begin His ministry, and His Mother understands this. Mary thus immediately intercedes, Jesus obeys her, and performs the miracle which commenced His ministry of redemption.

Luke 8:28 - the demons tell Jesus the same thing, “what have you to do with us.” The demons are not rebuking Jesus, for God would not allow it. Instead, the demons are acknowledging the power of Jesus by their question to Him**.

John 2:4; 19:26 - when Jesus uses the title “woman” (gnyai), it is a title of dignity and respect. It is the equivalent of Lady or Madam. Jesus honored His Mother as God requires us to do.

This is from scripturecatholic.com

 

[scylla]

It seems like your friend reads articles by Jason Engwer who has written several papers regarding Catholicism. There is several things that are mis-represented in his paper regarding Mary. If you are disussing this topic with you friend then you should know their source material and how to respond to it.

Your friend is not getting this out of just reading the Bible Alone but from a pretty well written anti-catholic source which should be addressed if you are going to be talking to this person. If you respond to this objection and have a reasoned response there is a good chance that they will just pull up another article as an objection. So it is very important to address that or else you will go in circles for a long time.

Here is a link to the article written by Jason Engwer, off his site.
members.aol.com/jasonte/mary.htm

Now I don’t have the time to address his article but I am sure others do. If you are not careful though the way it is presented it can lead you astray if you don’t pay attention the the various problems in his article.

To get you started take a look at the Joseph of Arimathea paragraph where he tries to equate the Catholic understanding of the Ark of the Covenant and Mary with Joseph carrying Jesus after He died. Does this mean anyone who helped carry Jesus after the crucifixion would be the same? I don’t see Joseph carrying Jesus inside of him, and giving birth to Him.
There are many more objections I can come up with that comparison such as what about the donkey that carried the living Jesus into Jerusalem?

So if anyone can take a look and address this article it would probably be helpful to the OP.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[Della]

I won’t cover ground already covered so well, here, but I want to talk about the idea that because Mary didn’t know at all times what Jesus intended by his words or actions that that means she had no knowledge of his Messianic mission and so wasn’t voluntarily cooperating with him. The Church has never claimed that Mary immediately understood everything Jesus ever said or did or anticipated all his words and actions so that she could not be surprised. In order for her to have done that she would have to have been more than sinless (which really has no bearing on this point) but divinely omniscient as well, which she clearly wasn’t. The Gospels tell us that even Jesus was surprised from time to time by the words and actions of others because he had laid aside his divinity, so to speak, in order to be like us in every respect except sin.

Anyone can intend to support and cooperate with another without understanding all the other person is saying and doing. Any husband and wife knows all about that! My dh and I have worked together on several home improvement projects, and although we had every intention of being supportive and cooperative, we still didn’t always understand what the other person was describing or saying or doing. Since when does a person have to know all that another is going to say and do in order to intend to assist him?

 

[Redbandito]

momstheword:

Hi all,
I need help explaining the passages where Jesus seems to admonish His mother. I’ve already told her (my friend) that such a rebuke would have been a violation of the 4th commandment. She responded that an admonition by the Lord would not be disrespectful. Obviously, she begins with the premise that the Blessed Mother sinned, and therefore Jesus was speaking here as her Lord, not her Son. Here is the text of what she sent.
"She refers to her need for a Savior (Luke 1:47), and she’s sometimes rebuked
by Jesus (Luke 2:48-50, John 2:3-4). To suggest that in Luke 1:47 Mary meant
that she was saved from ever sinning is an assumption that can’t be proven,
and that’s not how the term is used elsewhere in Scripture. God is
repeatedly referred to as a Savior because He saves sinners, not because He
prevents people from ever sinning. What Biblical precedent do we have for
the Catholic interpretation of Luke 1:47?

In response to John 2:3-4 - the same language Jesus uses in response to Mary
(“What do I have to do with you?”) is used by the demons when they’re trying
to distance themselves from Jesus (Mark 1:24, Luke 8:28, etc.). The phrase
Jesus uses is a negative one, and suggests that He’s rebuking or correcting
Mary. Admonishing in the Lord is not dishonoring - so Jesus was not sinning
to do so.

Not only do we see Jesus rebuking Mary in Scripture, but we also see Mary
distrusting Jesus and suggesting that He did something wrong (Luke 2:41-50).
She was anxious about Him, and she asks, "Son, why have you treated us this
way?" (verse 48). When Jesus explains that He had to be in His Father’s
house, Mary doesn’t understand (verse 50). Not only does this passage pose a
problem for the claim that Mary was sinless, but it also contradicts the
claim that Mary was aware of and cooperating with Jesus’ Messianic work all
along. Clearly, if Mary was anxious about Jesus, as though He couldn’t be
trusted alone at age 12, and if she accused Him of mistreating her and
didn’t understand what He meant by His simple response to her, it’s
implausible to claim that Mary was fully aware of Jesus’ identity and fully
cooperating with Him."

Interesting that Jesus rebukes her, yet does exactly what she asked. Doesn’t seem congruent if he is actually rebuking her.