I
InDefense
Guest
That you were both wrong ?
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B
Big_Ro
Guest
I followed the link. It ultimately lead me to a book for sale by Fr. Mateo, which is cool. I might buy it.
If I understood it right Christ by addressing his own Mother as “Woman” is a sign of respect and Christ thus elevates her and women in general. I like that, but it has to be read in to the text. I think the Angel had already done that by addressing Mary with “Hail, full of grace”. Doesn’t the Angel also tell she has found favor with God? Pretty strong endorsements. So, is Jesus giving his stamp of approval? Maybe I should go back and re-read the explanation.
G
Gorgias
Guest
InDefense,
That’s because Jesus isn’t talking about himself, but other humans. In other words, not counting Himself, none have been raised up more greatly than has John the Baptist.
Besides, if Jesus was including himself among those whom he was comparing, the passage would make no sense – after all, He calls John “Elijah”, and the implication is that Jesus is the one whom John announced. Are you suggesting, then, that John is greater than Jesus?
Since John the Baptist is clearly not greater than Jesus, then His statement about “those born of women” doesn’t include Himself; therefore, there’s no inference that you can make about Mary vis-a-vis other women.
Using this verse as a proof-text against Mary is missing the entire point of the verse.
LOL… that’s pretty funny. So, you’re saying that there’s the possibility that, when the Gospel of Jesus is told throughout the world, that people won’t remember Mary? Of course not! But, this episode is different – unless Jesus mentioned it this way, don’t you think that this story could’ve been forgotten? Jesus ensures that it won’t, by His statement. Again, you’re missing the point in your desire to diss Mary…!
E
ESMDHokie77
Guest
This is amusing, C.A. Magazine has an article about Cana in the most recent edition
E
ESMDHokie77
Guest
[BIBLEDRB]Luke 11:28[/BIBLEDRB]
Luke 11:28, unless you want to demonstrate how Mary doesn’t fall into this category.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Umm… I don’t think this’ll meet his challenge. He’s asking where Mary is elevated; sounds like (although she clearly falls into this category), many others do, too, and therefore, she’s not being raised above others by virtue of being the Mother of the Messiah…
B
Big_Ro
Guest
Do you have a link or can you tell me how to get there.
E
ESMDHokie77
Guest
Sorry to say that since this issue of the magazine just got published, Catholic Answers won’t upload it to the website for about 7-8 months.
E
empther
Guest
Genesis 3:15
3 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."
Jesus was in effect saying: “Mary is the long promised woman by whom my human nature will crush the head of the serpent. That’s what her concern has to do with me.”
3 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."
Jesus was in effect saying: “Mary is the long promised woman by whom my human nature will crush the head of the serpent. That’s what her concern has to do with me.”
P
PJM
Guest
***The Comment MUST be palced back into a more complete [behind the scenes] understanding.
Consider these points:***
- Jesus and Mary were GUEST not part of the wedding party persay.
- Therefore Jesus HAD NO defined- ROLE; no OBLIGATION beyond being there
- It is MARY the **Mother of Christ doing the Initiating **
4. Mary too was "Only a guest" - What was Mary’s motive? Certainly in charity trying to avoid what would have been a embarassing situation for the bride and groom as well as the Wine Stewart. BUT WAS THERE MORE TO IT THAN ONLY THIS?
- Some speculation exist that Jesus CAUSED the wine shortage by bringing the TWELVE with him [as they were not offically invited guest; which did not prevent them from consuming their share of the wine?]
- What was it that Mary was asking [and KNEW ABOUT HER SON?]
- She expected a miracle [but Jesus had yet to disclose His Ministry’]
- Mary knew that there would be consequences to what she asked
- Jesus really asked a VEILED QUESTION THAT ONLY MARY COULD ANSWER; and it WAS NOT the question articulated by Christ.
11. The question being asked of Mary is "Mother do you realize that if I do this; you will in FACT be pronouncing my death warrant? Do you understand fully what you are asking of Me? Once I reveal my Godhood; I [and you; dear mother will never have the same relationship we currently have]. You too will be asked to suffer along with Me. - NOTICE Mary’s responce. She IMPLIED; YES I DO KNOW; YES I DO ACCEPT MY ROLE’" and YES this is the right time! She simply ASSUMED that Jesus would Do as she asked> “DO WHAT EVER HE TELLS YOU” and then just turned her back and walked away.
- Behind the bibles dialog is the willinness of Mary to “Let God of Jesus” and to SEND him on His ministry; that somehow She foreknew would end in the death of Christ; even if she did not yet understand all of the details.
- It is the implied CONSENT of BOTH Jesus and Mary; that was if full accord with the Devine Will; that is the behind the scenes truth of what took place here.
Pat
Merry Christmas
B
Big_Ro
Guest
Awesome post. Very logical. And, isn’t there also an echo of Abraham and his blind trust in God that allowed him to take Issac out to sacrifice him. Like Mary, Abraham knew that the journey would end in Issac’s death, but had confidence that God would work it all out. Somehow Issac would come through and he did. So interesting.***The Comment MUST be palced back into a more complete [behind the scenes] understanding.
Consider these points:***
AS PAUL HARVEY WOULD SAY:HERE IS THE REST OF THE STORY
- Jesus and Mary were GUEST not part of the wedding party persay.
- Therefore Jesus HAD NO defined- ROLE; no OBLIGATION beyond being there
- It is MARY the **Mother of Christ doing the Initiating **
4. Mary too was "Only a guest"- What was Mary’s motive? Certainly in charity trying to avoid what would have been a embarassing situation for the bride and groom as well as the Wine Stewart. BUT WAS THERE MORE TO IT THAN ONLY THIS?
- Some speculation exist that Jesus CAUSED the wine shortage by bringing the TWELVE with him [as they were not offically invited guest; which did not prevent them from consuming their share of the wine?]
God Bless you, and thanks for asking,
- What was it that Mary was asking [and KNEW ABOUT HER SON?]
- She expected a miracle [but Jesus had yet to disclose His Ministry’]
- Mary knew that there would be consequences to what she asked
- Jesus really asked a VEILED QUESTION THAT ONLY MARY COULD ANSWER; and it WAS NOT the question articulated by Christ.
11. The question being asked of Mary is "Mother do you realize that if I do this; you will in FACT be pronouncing my death warrant? Do you understand fully what you are asking of Me? Once I reveal my Godhood; I [and you; dear mother will never have the same relationship we currently have]. You too will be asked to suffer along with Me.- NOTICE Mary’s responce. She IMPLIED; YES I DO KNOW; YES I DO ACCEPT MY ROLE’" and YES this is the right time! She simply ASSUMED that Jesus would Do as she asked> “DO WHAT EVER HE TELLS YOU” and then just turned her back and walked away.
- Behind the bibles dialog is the willinness of Mary to “Let God of Jesus” and to SEND him on His ministry; that somehow She foreknew would end in the death of Christ; even if she did not yet understand all of the details.
- It is the implied CONSENT of BOTH Jesus and Mary; that was if full accord with the Devine Will; that is the behind the scenes truth of what took place here.
Pat
Merry Christmas
I
inkaneer
Guest
I pondered this passage in scripture for two reasons. First, why is this in the scripture and second there seems to be parts of the conversation missing. The conversation as recorded by John is as follows: [NOTE: I added missing parts. They are in brackets}
Mary: “They have no wine.” [Can you do something?]
Jesus: “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.” [but for
you I will.]
Mary: (to the servants) “Do whatever he tells you.”
The answer to this is found in the Old Testament and has everything to do with Mary as Queen of Heaven. If you look at what is written by John there appears to be part of the conversation missing. This occurs between two people when there is a basic understanding by the two people of something relevant to what is going on. What is relevant is found in the Old Testament in 1Kings 2:12-20
“12 So Solomon sat upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was firmly established. 13 Then Adoni’jah the son of Haggith came to Bathshe’ba the mother of Solomon. And she said, “Do you come peaceably?” He said, “Peaceably.” 14 Then he said, “I have something to say to you.” She said, “Say on.” 15 He said, “You know that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel fully expected me to reign; however the kingdom has turned about and become my brother’s, for it was his from the LORD. 16 And now I have one request to make of you; do not refuse me.” She said to him, “Say on.” 17 And he said, “Pray ask King Solomon–he will not refuse you–to give me Ab’ishag the Shu’nammite as my wife.” 18 Bathshe’ba said, “Very well; I will speak for you to the king.” 19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.” [1 Kings 2:12-25] [RSV]
The part that intrigued me was verse 19 -20:
“19So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right. 20 Then she said, “I have one small request to make of you; do not refuse me.” And the king said to her, “Make your request, my mother; for I will not refuse you.”
Here King Solomon, a king of the line of David has his mother sitting at his right hand. But there is something else. Solomon says to his mother that he would not refuse her request. When I looked elsewhere in the OT I found that the queen in the Davidic kingdom was not the king’s wife but rather the king’s mother. Suddenly a lot of things that protestants object to in Catholicism made sense. Mary sits at Jesus right hand just as Bathsheeba did with Solomon and the other Davidic queens did with their sons. Jesus is of the line of David and has a kingdom which is heaven. Therefore his mother, following the Davidic tradition is the queen of the kingdom and thus when Catholics call her Queen of Heaven it does have biblical support. Intercessary prayers and devotions to Mary make a lot of sense, especially if the requests of the queen [Mary] will not be refused by the king [Jesus].
That is what is missing in the story of the wedding feast. It is the unspoken knowledge shared by Jesus and Mary that, as queen of the kingdom, her request will not be refused. That is why she tells the servants to do as Jesus tells them.
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PJM
Guest
R
raaucoin
Guest
Great Post! For me on a faith level the important thing is Mary asked , trusted and He did.***The Comment MUST be palced back into a more complete [behind the scenes] understanding.
Consider these points:***
AS PAUL HARVEY WOULD SAY:HERE IS THE REST OF THE STORY
- Jesus and Mary were GUEST not part of the wedding party persay.
- Therefore Jesus HAD NO defined- ROLE; no OBLIGATION beyond being there
- It is MARY the **Mother of Christ doing the Initiating **
4. Mary too was "Only a guest"- What was Mary’s motive? Certainly in charity trying to avoid what would have been a embarassing situation for the bride and groom as well as the Wine Stewart. BUT WAS THERE MORE TO IT THAN ONLY THIS?
- Some speculation exist that Jesus CAUSED the wine shortage by bringing the TWELVE with him [as they were not offically invited guest; which did not prevent them from consuming their share of the wine?]
God Bless you, and thanks for asking,
- What was it that Mary was asking [and KNEW ABOUT HER SON?]
- She expected a miracle [but Jesus had yet to disclose His Ministry’]
- Mary knew that there would be consequences to what she asked
- Jesus really asked a VEILED QUESTION THAT ONLY MARY COULD ANSWER; and it WAS NOT the question articulated by Christ.
11. The question being asked of Mary is "Mother do you realize that if I do this; you will in FACT be pronouncing my death warrant? Do you understand fully what you are asking of Me? Once I reveal my Godhood; I [and you; dear mother will never have the same relationship we currently have]. You too will be asked to suffer along with Me.- NOTICE Mary’s responce. She IMPLIED; YES I DO KNOW; YES I DO ACCEPT MY ROLE’" and YES this is the right time! She simply ASSUMED that Jesus would Do as she asked> “DO WHAT EVER HE TELLS YOU” and then just turned her back and walked away.
- Behind the bibles dialog is the willinness of Mary to “Let God of Jesus” and to SEND him on His ministry; that somehow She foreknew would end in the death of Christ; even if she did not yet understand all of the details.
- It is the implied CONSENT of BOTH Jesus and Mary; that was if full accord with the Devine Will; that is the behind the scenes truth of what took place here.
Pat
Merry Christmas
And then there’s a part of me that knows the silliness that can be present between me and my mom and my brother and my mom. They were at a wedding!! Party and good time! Maybe Jesus was being sarcastically silly. He was after all human like us! I remeber my mom saying “son, we’re out of milk.” My brother-“that’s ok , I drank enough!” Then he got up, kissed her and went to the store for milk.
Sure, there’s probably a deeper theological reason as to why the gospel writer included the story, but maybe it was just a glimpse into the relationship that had developed between Jesus and Mary in the years we don’t know about. Or Not!!
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PJM
Guest
***That assumes a level of human activity not POSSIBLE for Jesus; either as man or as God.
Christ came on a MISSION from “the Father” and that goal was alway’s in the mind of the person Jesus Christ.
There was no-time wasted on jovality.*** Such would be unbecoming of Christ human and Devine natures. No He was not a grump; BUT always was serious.God Bless,
Pat
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