Jesus' Resurrected Body: Superfluous? Functioning? Facade?

[vicwestlad]

PeaceInChrist:

You didn’t respond to several parts of my original post.

I can’t respond to every word you say or the posts would get ridiculously long. I picked out the parts I thought were relevant to the problems posed in my OP. If there are specific things you want me to respond to please let me know and I’ll be more than happy to respond to them.

PeaceInChrist:

As to the level that a resurrected and glorified body functions on, I honestly don’t think anyone on earth knows.

Of course they don’t know. I’m asking people to think about it to see if they can make sense of it.

PeaceInChrist:

The parts of my post that you excluded included answers as to why Jesus still has a human body and soul, and that He is glorified, and that is as much as we know.

Seems to me you basically said God designed it that way and can’t go back on it. If I have you wrong, please restate your position, perhaps more clearly.

And saying it’s “beautiful” is irrelevant, as I already addressed. Saying it’s “eternal” doesn’t make sense because his body is not. It hasn’t existed eternally, because it is physical. It was created and can be discarded. God can exist eternally as pure spirit, without anything physical.

PeaceInChrist:

By seeking to know minute details about the Glorified Body of Christ, you are seeking knowledge that is beyond human capability and beyond divine revelation. No one has examined the organs of Jesus, or asked Him these questions, and so we have no way of knowing.

You don’t have to examine him to understand that either his internal organs are functioning or they’re not. My position is that it’s problematic either way. If you don’t believe me, try either way and I’ll walk you through it.

PeaceInChrist:

Many of your questions are about extremely minute details that have never been discussed or revealed, and are impossible to know.

No, it’s not “extremely minute” to ask whether his internal organs are functioning or not. The minutiae may naturally follow depending on which answer you think is more theologically consistent with Catholic doctrine.

PeaceInChrist:

As to Aquinas,

Since Aquinas doesn’t answer the questions I have posed let’s leave him out for the purposes of concision. I merely pointed out that Aquinas’ views are not the be all end all. If you want to address my criticisms please do so using your own mind and knowledge.

Now here are the questions you didn’t address from the previous post:

1. You said God doesn’t need a body. So I asked, “Then what purpose does it serve?”
2. I asked specifically about the lungs, heart, and veins. The question is, are they functioning? Either they are or they aren’t. What do you think?
3. Does Jesus have a human brain? If so, does he use it?

 

[davidv]

I can’t respond to every word you say or the posts would get ridiculously long. I picked out the parts I thought were relevant to the problems posed in my OP. If there are specific things you want me to respond to please let me know and I’ll be more than happy to respond to them.

Of course they don’t know. I’m asking people to think about it to see if they can make sense of it.

Seems to me you basically said God designed it that way and can’t go back on it. If I have you wrong, please restate your position, perhaps more clearly.

And saying it’s “beautiful” is irrelevant, as I already addressed. Saying it’s “eternal” doesn’t make sense because his body is not. It hasn’t existed eternally, because it is physical. It was created and can be discarded. God can exist eternally as pure spirit, without anything physical.

You don’t have to examine him to understand that either his internal organs are functioning or they’re not. My position is that it’s problematic either way. If you don’t believe me, try either way and I’ll walk you through it.

No, it’s not “extremely minute” to ask whether his internal organs are functioning or not. The minutiae may naturally follow depending on which answer you think is more theologically consistent with Catholic doctrine.

Since Aquinas doesn’t answer the questions I have posed let’s leave him out for the purposes of concision. I merely pointed out that Aquinas’ views are not the be all end all. If you want to address my criticisms please do so using your own mind and knowledge.

Now here are the questions you didn’t address from the previous post:

1. You said God doesn’t need a body. So I asked, “Then what purpose does it serve?”

Answered multiple times in prior posts.

1. I asked specifically about the lungs, heart, and veins. The question is, are they functioning? Either they are or they aren’t. What do you think?

I think the aswer is unknown and any speculation is irrelevant.

1. Does Jesus have a human brain? If so, does he use it?

Yes and yes. Why? Jesus has a human nature. Those with a human nature have a brain and use it.

 

[Aloysium]

. . .

1. You said God doesn’t need a body. So I asked, “Then what purpose does it serve?”
2. I asked specifically about the lungs, heart, and veins. The question is, are they functioning? Either they are or they aren’t. What do you think?
3. Does Jesus have a human brain? If so, does he use it?

:twocents:

1. God does not need a body. He transcends His creation. At the same time that He is perfect, He chose to become a part of His creation. In doing so and by His sacrifice, He enables, what would otherwise be second-rate physical demons living out solitary miserable existences on an ungiving planet, the opportunity to be truly happy.
2. If we see no colours and the answer is green, the best we can do is to talk about shades of grey. There is no point asking about specifics. Our bodies will be in the form necessary to exist at that level/dimension/sphere/reality of matter. We are one with the spiritual, the psychosocial and the material world. At the resurrection, in the new jerusalem, our bodies will allow us to participate in that physical reality. Imagine what you will.
3. In order to see, to form and speak words, to move, basically to perceive and act, to be able to relate in a participartory fashion with the physical, one needs a brain. Whatever are essential qualities of the brain/mind required in the heavenly realm that is our destiny, those will constitute part of our being. I would imagine that resurrected, He would have a super-human brain.

 

[vicwestlad]

davidv:

Answered multiple times in prior posts.

Uh uh. If any answer was given, there were follow ups that were not answered. If it was answered, what was the answer?

davidv:

I think the aswer is unknown and any speculation is irrelevant.

Wrong. As I’ve stated, the problem is that either way leads to logical problems so it’s not “irelevant”. Nice try. And, as I’ve said before, everyone agrees it’s unknown. That’s not the issue. But it has to be one or the other.

davidv:

Yes and yes. Why? Jesus has a human nature. Those with a human nature have a brain and use it.

Interesting. 2 Questions:

What does Jesus use his human brain for exactly?

Does he actually need to use it?

 

[vicwestlad]

Aloysium:

1. God does not need a body. He transcends His creation. At the same time that He is perfect, He chose to become a part of His creation.

Unfortunately for you this doesn’t answer the question. I know you believe he doesn’t need it. The question was, since he doesn’t need a body, what purpose does is serve?

Aloysium:

2. If we see no colours and the answer is green, the best we can do is to talk about shades of grey. There is no point asking about specifics. Our bodies will be in the form necessary to exist at that level/dimension/sphere/reality of matter. We are one with the spiritual, the psychosocial and the material world. At the resurrection, in the new jerusalem, our bodies will allow us to participate in that physical reality. Imagine what you will.

Again, question not answered. Either the organs are functioning or not. You dismiss this as a “specific” question as if specific is bad. It’s actually a basic question. The fact that I ask a specific question is good for clarity. You’re unwarranted hand-waving doesn’t solve the problem. You can’t answer it because either way is a problem. But, you must acknowledge it must be one or the other. Either they’re functioning or they’re not.

Aloysium:

1. In order to see, to form and speak words, to move, basically to perceive and act, to be able to relate in a participartory fashion with the physical, one needs a brain.

God needs a physical brain to speak? God needs a physical brain to perceive things? Aloysium, you can’t be serious. You’re way out of mainstream theology. I think you may want to rethink this.

Aloysium:

Whatever are essential qualities of the brain/mind required in the heavenly realm that is our destiny, those will constitute part of our being.

Once again I have to remind you that I’m not talking about us (mortals). I’m talking specifically about a god.

Aloysium:

I would imagine that resurrected, He would have a super-human brain.

“Super-human” in what way? What would distinguish it from a normal human brain?

 

[Aloysium]

When Eve was inthe garden, she went along with the snake.
I suppose she could have argued until she was blue in the face.
Or simply crushed its head.
Go for the head dude, before it’s too late.

 

[davidv]

Uh uh. If any answer was given, there were follow ups that were not answered. If it was answered, what was the answer?

Wrong. As I’ve stated, the problem is that either way leads to logical problems so it’s not “irelevant”. Nice try. And, as I’ve said before, everyone agrees it’s unknown. That’s not the issue. But it has to be one or the other.

Interesting. 2 Questions:

What does Jesus use his human brain for exactly?

Does he actually need to use it?

Pardon me for not joining you in your attempt at putting God in a box.
Good day.

 

[vicwestlad]

When Eve was inthe garden, she went along with the snake.
I suppose she could have argued until she was blue in the face.
Or simply crushed its head.
Go for the head dude, before it’s too late.

Can’t answer the questions once again Aloysium

 

[vicwestlad]

Pardon me for not joining you in your attempt at putting God in a box.
Good day.

They are basic questions and they are not unreasonable. You make the claim Jesus has a physical body. I merely ask questions about it would function in the context of all we know about the purpose of a human body. It is not unreasonable to do this. The problem really is that you can’t answer the questions without getting into trouble.

 

[davidv]

They are basic questions and they are not unreasonable. You make the claim Jesus has a physical body. I merely ask questions about it would function in the context of all we know about the purpose of a human body. It is not unreasonable to do this. The problem really is that you can’t answer the questions without getting into trouble.

They are not basic questions and they are unreasonable. They are traps. If I’m in trouble for saying “I don’t know” so be it.

 

[vicwestlad]

They are not basic questions and they are unreasonable. They are traps. If I’m in trouble for saying “I don’t know” so be it.

Lol. It’s “unreasonable” to ask if Jesus’ breathes? You’re the one who claims he was resurrected in a physical human body. That’s not my claim. It’s yours. I’m just following this claim through to it’s logical conclusion. You feel “trapped” because you sense a problem. I understand, believe me.

I guess it would also be unreasonable to ask, since Jesus’ body is physical, where is he right now? Just believe. Don’t ask questions.

Yes, I’m such an unreasonable person.

 

[Usagi]

Usagi, please don’t take this in anyway other than concern, but Vic IS beginning to get you too wet to swim.

These things you’ve said are directly against Catholic teaching and understanding. If you hadn’t tangled with the drowning man, you wouldn’t be all wet. This is I think, however, his intended purpose: to confuse you till you begin to deny basic truths of the Church until you’re so thoroughly confused you give up. It is a technique. Vic isn’t the only one to use such tactics. They work obviously.

I don’t believe I have contradicted Church teaching, but I may well have been unclear. Thank you very much for your concern, but I think you have misunderstood me.

God does have a soul as in Body Blood Soul and Divinity contained in the Blessed Sacrament.

God the Son now has a human soul, yes (the soul being talked about in the description of the Eucharist is Jesus’ human soul), but it’s true that we don’t usually describe the other two Persons or the Son before the Incarnation as having or being a soul. For whatever reason, we usually apply “soul” to humans and “Spirit” to describe God.

Their are Saints in Heaven who have** bodies**, the Blessed Virgin Mary being the foremost example.

Yes, that’s why I said “most” saints are currently disembodied.

At the Incarnation there was “no grafting” in of anything nor was God Creating Himself. He was already one God in 3 Divine persons but He was assuming human nature that we might be saved, flesh and bone, soul and all. He nursed at the Blessed Virgin’s breast.

“Grafted” was my word and may have been a poor choice. I wasn’t sure how I could describe the connection that would make sense to Vic.

As far as I know, it is Catholic teaching that Jesus’ human body and soul were created at the moment of the Incarnation and joined to the pre-existent God the Son in the hypostatic union. I certainly did not mean to suggest that the Son Himself is a created being.

Usagi, please be more careful about what you let Vic lead you to conclude.

Glenda

Again, thanks, but I think we just have a misunderstanding here.

Usagi

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I can’t respond to every word you say or the posts would get ridiculously long. I picked out the parts I thought were relevant to the problems posed in my OP. If there are specific things you want me to respond to please let me know and I’ll be more than happy to respond to them.

Of course they don’t know. I’m asking people to think about it to see if they can make sense of it.

Seems to me you basically said God designed it that way and can’t go back on it. If I have you wrong, please restate your position, perhaps more clearly.

And saying it’s “beautiful” is irrelevant, as I already addressed. Saying it’s “eternal” doesn’t make sense because his body is not. It hasn’t existed eternally, because it is physical. It was created and can be discarded. God can exist eternally as pure spirit, without anything physical.

You don’t have to examine him to understand that either his internal organs are functioning or they’re not. My position is that it’s problematic either way. If you don’t believe me, try either way and I’ll walk you through it.

No, it’s not “extremely minute” to ask whether his internal organs are functioning or not. The minutiae may naturally follow depending on which answer you think is more theologically consistent with Catholic doctrine.

Since Aquinas doesn’t answer the questions I have posed let’s leave him out for the purposes of concision. I merely pointed out that Aquinas’ views are not the be all end all. If you want to address my criticisms please do so using your own mind and knowledge.

Now here are the questions you didn’t address from the previous post:

1. You said God doesn’t need a body. So I asked, “Then what purpose does it serve?”
2. I asked specifically about the lungs, heart, and veins. The question is, are they functioning? Either they are or they aren’t. What do you think?
3. Does Jesus have a human brain? If so, does he use it?

In Catholic theology, at the resurrection, the body is immortal with the soul. God could destroy or discard whatever He wants, but He has designed the soul and body (at the resurrection) to be immortal (eternal was a poor choice of wording). He will never destroy what He has made to be, and wills to be, immortal. I hope that clears up the confusion caused when I said “eternal” when I really meant “immortal.”

As to the other questions, I’m sorry, Vic, but I don’t think I can help you any further. It’s beyond my scope of knowledge and I don’t find it necessary to know or required for my salvation.

I hope God blesses your pursuit of truth and pray it leads to Him. Merry Christmas

 

[fred_conty]

Lol. It’s “unreasonable” to ask if Jesus’ breathes? You’re the one who claims he was resurrected in a physical human body. That’s not my claim. It’s yours. I’m just following this claim through to it’s logical conclusion. You feel “trapped” because you sense a problem. I understand, believe me.

I guess it would also be unreasonable to ask, since Jesus’ body is physical, where is he right now? Just believe. Don’t ask questions.

Yes, I’m such an unreasonable person.

The bible says that on the last day our bodies will be resurrected from the dead.
And we know that they will no longer suffer pain in any way, but will be transformed into something wonderful.

This too is what happened to Christ’s body, which can no longer suffer and is now transformed.

Whether he is breathing, or where he is, hasn’t been told to us. It may be that the transformed body may be invisible to us, and breathing is not important but life is supported by the soul. We don’t know, because the details were not revealed.
And the revelation of these are not important in terms of affecting our salvation.

And so like many other little details with our faith, not everything is necessary to know, but is left to just guessing. We are allowed to do this as long as it dosent’ stray from the already known truth, or dosen’t go against common sense and good taste.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.