Jesus resurrection story is not original

[Gorgias]

I don’t think so. Do you have any source to show that?

Umm… you noticed that I included a link in my post, right…? :sad_yes:

How about other Gods cited in the link I provided.

I hate to be rude, but I’m not going to do your research for you. If you want to cite something as being true, please do your own due diligence in determining whether the link you’re reading is real or is just some made-up stories meant to look impressive.

However, let’s just start with the first one: Attis.

Attis was ‘born of the virgin Nana’, but that’s not the whole story. Actually, the way the story goes, the gods of Olympus feared a particular demon, so they castrated him. Where that body part came to rest on the ground, an almond tree grew up. Nana (the daughter of a river god), picked an almond from the tree and placed it on her body. From that seed (get it? seed…!), Attis was conceived. So, the myth here isn’t “virgin birth” so much as it is “unwilling and unawares conception from a demon.”

Attis wasn’t “crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind,” either. His myth states that he went mad, castrated himself and bled to death while sitting under a pine tree. In some legends, he then turns into a pine tree.

His followers weren’t “baptized in blood,” “washed from their sins”, or self-declared “born again.” Their spring festival was a fertility festival: a pine tree was brought from the forest, wrapped in violets (symbolizing Attis’ blood); an image of a castrated Attis was lashed to the trunk of the tree; his priests (who were castrata), flailed and whirled in a frenzy, cutting themselves and spreading their blood on the tree. Their devotees then castrated themselves; their organs were buried in caves dedicated to a castration-goddess, in the hopes that a fertile spring season would result.

See this link and this link for more info.

This web page that you provided us is just a hack job, making unattested wild claims that are intended to cast aspersions on the story of Jesus. If you notice, there aren’t any attributions for those claims. We might well ask you to demonstrate to us that they’re reasonable, rather than you asking us to disprove them.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Read a little bit further in Justin’s ‘First Apology’, into the chapter that follows the citation you’ve quoted. Having said what you quote – in the chapter entitled ‘Analogies to the sonship of Christ’, Justin then goes on to say (all emphases mine):

In other words – almost as if Justin were replying to your post! – he says that the stories of Christ alone (and not the stories of pagan gods) are true; and that their truth does not depend on old myths that happen to have superficial similarities; and that they are historical while the myths are fictitious.

The history is full of mythes.

Incidentally, allow me to note: * you provided an out-of-context quote from Justin Martyr* I demonstrated that he isn’t saying what you claim he’s saying* you had no rebuttal or even a response to my reply* and instead, you raised up a new, outlandish claim

I’ll take that as a tacit admission that you recognize that your Justin Martyr claims are false.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Why these attributes are important? They actually similar with the case of Mythra and another similar Gods.

this says it better than I can, so I will quote from this source: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081119183544AAFPAnF

"Mithraism was a late Roman mystery religion that was popular among soliders and merchants, and which became a chief rival to Christianity in the second century and later. The participants met in a cave like structure called mithraeum, which had as its cult statue - Mithras stabbing a bull - the so-called tauroctony.

Mithras was a Persian god who attested as early as the 14th Century BC , but there is almost NO evidence of Mithraism in sense of a mystery religion in the west until very late - **too late to have influenced the beginnings of Christianity. ** The first public recognition of the Mithras in Rome was the state visit of Tiridates, the King of Armenia, in AD 66. There were also pirates in Cilicia who worshiped Mithras - but not as a mystery religion. About AD 90 a Mithraic motif in a poem by Statius - but no temples found at Pompeii. The earliest Mithraic inscription in the west is a statue of a prefect under the emperor Trajan in AD 101 - now in a British Museum.

The establishment of Mithraic Mysteries dates at the reign of Hadrian, which was **AD 117-138 or Antoninus Pius - AD 138-161. So it didn’t exist as a developed religion until the mid second century. **

Mithras was not born of a virgin - Mithras was born outof a rock - Mithras emerges fully grown and naked except for a Phrygian cap, and he is holding a dagger and torch. Some variations have him with flames shooting out from the rock, or he is holding a globe in his hand.

Mithras may have been born on December 25th (which neither was Mithras) - BUT JESUS WAS NOT!!! Constantine brought the idea of celebrating the birth of Jesus on this day - Constantine was a former Pagan turned Christian - this happens over 336 years after the birth of Jesus.

Mithras was not a great traveller or master with twelve disciples. Mithras was portrayed as a god, not a teacher.

Mithras was not sacrificed for world peace - Mithras killed a bull.

**Mithras was not buried in a tomb and rose after three days - there was no death of Mithras - thus there can be no resurrection. ** Mithras was not considered a good shepherd, the way, the truth and the life, logos, the redeemer of the savior - that is reading Christianity into Mithrasism.

The Lord’s supper was based on the Passover (which far outdates Mithras) - the meal of Mithras was a satanic imitation of a mystery religion - a ritual reproduction of the celebration of his victory (over the bull) which Mithras performed with the sun-god before their joint ascension in the Sun’s chariot.

Regarding an inscription that says in aeternum renatus - or reborn for eternity - this was a rite practiced by Mithraists on exceptional occasions from the cult of Attis - the initiate was placed in a pit and a bull was slaughtered on a grate above him, drenching him in the bull’s blood. This is NOTHING like the Jewish sacrifical system and its foreshadowing of Jesus’ death as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world - again - this rite by Attis / Mithraists is dated in the mid 2nd century AD - the inscription mentioning the reborn for eternity - dated at AD 375, well after Christianity started.

So - No - it seems that Mithras borrowed from both Judaism and Christianity, not the other way around."

 

[Bahman]

Umm… you noticed that I included a link in my post, right…? :sad_yes:

I am sorry. I noticed it later.

I hate to be rude, but I’m not going to do your research for you. If you want to cite something as being true, please do your own due diligence in determining whether the link you’re reading is real or is just some made-up stories meant to look impressive.

However, let’s just start with the first one: Attis.

Attis was ‘born of the virgin Nana’, but that’s not the whole story. Actually, the way the story goes, the gods of Olympus feared a particular demon, so they castrated him. Where that body part came to rest on the ground, an almond tree grew up. Nana (the daughter of a river god), picked an almond from the tree and placed it on her body. From that seed (get it? seed…!), Attis was conceived. So, the myth here isn’t “virgin birth” so much as it is “unwilling and unawares conception from a demon.”

Attis wasn’t “crucified on a tree for the salvation of mankind,” either. His myth states that he went mad, castrated himself and bled to death while sitting under a pine tree. In some legends, he then turns into a pine tree.

His followers weren’t “baptized in blood,” “washed from their sins”, or self-declared “born again.” Their spring festival was a fertility festival: a pine tree was brought from the forest, wrapped in violets (symbolizing Attis’ blood); an image of a castrated Attis was lashed to the trunk of the tree; his priests (who were castrata), flailed and whirled in a frenzy, cutting themselves and spreading their blood on the tree. Their devotees then castrated themselves; their organs were buried in caves dedicated to a castration-goddess, in the hopes that a fertile spring season would result.

See this link and this link for more info.

This web page that you provided us is just a hack job, making unattested wild claims that are intended to cast aspersions on the story of Jesus. If you notice, there aren’t any attributions for those claims. We might well ask you to demonstrate to us that they’re reasonable, rather than you asking us to disprove them.

How about Osiris?

 

[Bahman]

Incidentally, allow me to note: * you provided an out-of-context quote from Justin Martyr* I demonstrated that he isn’t saying what you claim he’s saying* you had no rebuttal or even a response to my reply* and instead, you raised up a new, outlandish claim

I’ll take that as a tacit admission that you recognize that your Justin Martyr claims are false.

I have to confess that I didn’t realize what Justin Martyr intention was by reading wiki quote.

 

[Bahman]

this says it better than I can, so I will quote from this source: answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081119183544AAFPAnF

"Mithraism was a late Roman mystery religion that was popular among soliders and merchants, and which became a chief rival to Christianity in the second century and later. The participants met in a cave like structure called mithraeum, which had as its cult statue - Mithras stabbing a bull - the so-called tauroctony.

Mithras was a Persian god who attested as early as the 14th Century BC , but there is almost NO evidence of Mithraism in sense of a mystery religion in the west until very late - **too late to have influenced the beginnings of Christianity. ** The first public recognition of the Mithras in Rome was the state visit of Tiridates, the King of Armenia, in AD 66. There were also pirates in Cilicia who worshiped Mithras - but not as a mystery religion. About AD 90 a Mithraic motif in a poem by Statius - but no temples found at Pompeii. The earliest Mithraic inscription in the west is a statue of a prefect under the emperor Trajan in AD 101 - now in a British Museum.

The establishment of Mithraic Mysteries dates at the reign of Hadrian, which was **AD 117-138 or Antoninus Pius - AD 138-161. So it didn’t exist as a developed religion until the mid second century. **

Mithras was not born of a virgin - Mithras was born outof a rock - Mithras emerges fully grown and naked except for a Phrygian cap, and he is holding a dagger and torch. Some variations have him with flames shooting out from the rock, or he is holding a globe in his hand.

Mithras may have been born on December 25th (which neither was Mithras) - BUT JESUS WAS NOT!!! Constantine brought the idea of celebrating the birth of Jesus on this day - Constantine was a former Pagan turned Christian - this happens over 336 years after the birth of Jesus.

Mithras was not a great traveller or master with twelve disciples. Mithras was portrayed as a god, not a teacher.

Mithras was not sacrificed for world peace - Mithras killed a bull.

**Mithras was not buried in a tomb and rose after three days - there was no death of Mithras - thus there can be no resurrection. ** Mithras was not considered a good shepherd, the way, the truth and the life, logos, the redeemer of the savior - that is reading Christianity into Mithrasism.

The Lord’s supper was based on the Passover (which far outdates Mithras) - the meal of Mithras was a satanic imitation of a mystery religion - a ritual reproduction of the celebration of his victory (over the bull) which Mithras performed with the sun-god before their joint ascension in the Sun’s chariot.

Regarding an inscription that says in aeternum renatus - or reborn for eternity - this was a rite practiced by Mithraists on exceptional occasions from the cult of Attis - the initiate was placed in a pit and a bull was slaughtered on a grate above him, drenching him in the bull’s blood. This is NOTHING like the Jewish sacrifical system and its foreshadowing of Jesus’ death as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world - again - this rite by Attis / Mithraists is dated in the mid 2nd century AD - the inscription mentioning the reborn for eternity - dated at AD 375, well after Christianity started.

So - No - it seems that Mithras borrowed from both Judaism and Christianity, not the other way around."

How about Osiris?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

How about Osiris?

Osiris was a mythological god, one of many, who was torn apart, and then put back together again and his wife practiced necrophilia to impregnate herself with his son while he was dead. Osiris was never a human. His story is very complex and explains a lot about the idea of the Egyptian afterlife (which includes “taking it with you” and being weighed against a feather), but it is nothing like the story of Jesus Christ who was incarnate, lived a human life on earth and suffered and was put to death, and rose again from the dead, and is sitting at the right had of the Father in Heaven.

Jesus is NOT a mythological god. Just because other cultures had many different kinds of gods and explored the idea of an afterlife or rising from the dead or gods impregnating humans, doesn’t mean that they are true stories.

There is historical evidence for Jesus; absolutely none for Zeus, Osiris, Mithra, or any of the innumerable pantheon of gods in the ancient world.

 

[Gorgias]

In addition to Christine’s comments, Bahman, allow me to remind you of an old axiom:

Correlation does not imply causation.

The fact that many cultures have religious myths does not imply, nor does it prove that Christianity is based on these myths, or even that they demonstrate that Christianity itself is a myth.

As an example: if I were to tell you where and when I was born, and then tell you that other families have stories of their own babies having been born there in the days and years leading up to my birth, you certainly wouldn’t respond, “Oh, well, that means that the story of Gorgias’ birth is clearly derivative, and is based on the earlier reports of births there. His life-story, then, is obviously a myth!”… now, would you?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

In addition to Christine’s comments, Bahman, allow me to remind you of an old axiom:

Correlation does not imply causation.

The fact that many cultures have religious myths does not imply, nor does it prove that Christianity is based on these myths, or even that they demonstrate that Christianity itself is a myth.

As an example: if I were to tell you where and when I was born, and then tell you that other families have stories of their own babies having been born there in the days and years leading up to my birth, you certainly wouldn’t respond, “Oh, well, that means that the story of Gorgias’ birth is clearly derivative, and is based on the earlier reports of births there. His life-story, then, is obviously a myth!”… now, would you?

Exactly!

 

[Bahman]

Osiris was a mythological god, one of many, who was torn apart, and then put back together again and his wife practiced necrophilia to impregnate herself with his son while he was dead. Osiris was never a human. His story is very complex and explains a lot about the idea of the Egyptian afterlife (which includes “taking it with you” and being weighed against a feather), but it is nothing like the story of Jesus Christ who was incarnate, lived a human life on earth and suffered and was put to death, and rose again from the dead, and is sitting at the right had of the Father in Heaven.
**
Jesus is NOT a mythological god. Just because other cultures had many different kinds of gods and explored the idea of an afterlife or rising from the dead or gods impregnating humans, doesn’t mean that they are true stories. **

There is historical evidence for Jesus; absolutely none for Zeus, Osiris, Mithra, or any of the innumerable pantheon of gods in the ancient world.

So you accept that the story of Jesus resurrection is not original? There are other Gods with the same story about virgin birth, etc.

 

[Bahman]

In addition to Christine’s comments, Bahman, allow me to remind you of an old axiom:

Correlation does not imply causation.

The fact that many cultures have religious myths does not imply, nor does it prove that Christianity is based on these myths, or even that they demonstrate that Christianity itself is a myth.

As an example: if I were to tell you where and when I was born, and then tell you that other families have stories of their own babies having been born there in the days and years leading up to my birth, you certainly wouldn’t respond, “Oh, well, that means that the story of Gorgias’ birth is clearly derivative, and is based on the earlier reports of births there. His life-story, then, is obviously a myth!”… now, would you?

The fact that there are several stories about virgin birth, performing miracles and resurrections exactly means that one should doubt all of them.

 

[roger_pearse]

The fact that there are several stories about virgin birth, performing miracles and resurrections exactly means that one should doubt all of them.

Especially if one knows nothing about any of them, eh?

Likewise since there are forged dollar bills in circulation, you should accept none of them.

Hand them all to me.

 

[Mintaka]

Hey, Roger! It’s me, aka Suburbanbanshee!

Hope you find these to be fun forums.