Jesus returning to punish Christians

[rweidn]

Where do Muslims get their proof that Jesus himself in the New Testament says that Jesus will return to punish Christians and Jews. I had this this morning when i saw a patient of mine, a Muslim, who said that Islam is the final religion and that all Jews and Christians that do not convert ‘will enter the Hellfire’, that Jesus himself foretold this and will return to execute it. Being there in a professional capacity i did not get in to a debate with him about it, simply smiled and thanked him for his concern. He seemed genuinly worried for me and genuinly surprised that i didn’t convert on the spot. Where do they get this interpretation of New Testament scripture? Baffles me.

 

[jakasaki]

Hi there & welcome to CAF ~

This claim is NOT in the New Testament.

It is a muslim claim based on their Hadith books.

Their claim is that:

Isa will return and kill the anti-christ
Isa will destroy all churches and burn the cross
Isa will do away with tax and kill all of the swines
Isa will make Islam the global religion - no other religion will exit but Islam
Isa will then get married & have children
Isa will live on earth for 40 years, then die and be buried…

Please note that Isa/Issa is the Islamic Jesus, and NOT our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Della]

Many people, Christians as well as non-Christians interpret the Bible according to their own beliefs, but doing so doesn’t lead to enlightenment but to grave errors:

2Pt. 1[20] First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
[21] because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

The Bible belongs to the Church, not to all and sundry. How sad that it’s been used to condemn others for their faith instead of being used to call us all to repentance and love.

 

[jakasaki]

Here are 2 hadiths pertaining to that:

(1) Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: By Him in Whose hand is my life, the son of Mary (may peace be upon him) will soon descend among you as a just judge. He will break crosses, kill swine and abolish Jizya and the wealth will pour forth to such an extent that no one will accept it. (Book #001, Hadith #0287)

(2) It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger or Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: I swear by Allah that the son of Mary will certainly descend as a just judge and he would definitely break the cross, and kill swine and abolish Jizya and would leave the young she-camel and no one would endeavour to (collect Zakat on it). Spite, mutual hatred and jealousy against one another will certainly disappear and when he summons people to accept wealth, not even one would do so. (Book #001, Hadith #0289)

source: searchtruth.com

 

[TheSeeker2014]

they have their own ‘Jesus’ writtings and scriptures.
They see Him as a prophet and nothing more.
What they said was is not in our New Testament and I would imagine the ideal did not come from it either but rather their own books.
If they relied on our NT for that piece of info (wether a wrong interpretation or not) they would have to accept Jesus saying He is the Son of God and the Son of Man too.

 

[jakasaki]

The 2 hadiths I posted above are from Sahih Muslim:

This is one is from Sunan Abudawud:

Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him. (Book #37, Hadith #4310)

source: searchtruth.com

 

[hasantas]

Hi there & welcome to CAF ~

This claim is NOT in the New Testament.

It is a muslim claim based on their Hadith books.

Their claim is that:

Isa will return and kill the anti-christ
Isa will destroy all churches and burn the cross
Isa will do away with tax and kill all of the swines
Isa will make Islam the global religion - no other religion will exit but Islam
Isa will then get married & have children
Isa will live on earth for 40 years, then die and be buried…

Please note that Isa/Issa is the Islamic Jesus, and NOT our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify * you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Al-Imran(3):55

158-Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
159-And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness. An-Nısa(4)

48-And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel Al-Imran(3)

In Hadiths it is mentioned that: Jesus will come back and fight against Dejjal and evil. Jesus will teach the true Christianity that Jesus is merely a prophet(that means burn cross). Jesus will not negate Christianity but Jesus will correct the Christianity and Christianity will be same with Islam in faith.(There is only one, unique God)

In Al-Imran 48 verse god say "He will teach him writting and wisdom(that means Book in original text) … And Book imply Qur’an. So Jesus taught Torah and Bible and also he will come back to teach Qur’an either.(He will approve Qur’an).

In Gospels return of Jesus:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22

Perhaps Jesus warn who added that into Gospels"Jesus is God, son of God"*

 

[dronald]

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify * you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Al-Imran(3):55

158-Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
159-And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness. An-Nısa(4)

48-And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel Al-Imran(3)

In Hadiths it is mentioned that: Jesus will come back and fight against Dejjal and evil. Jesus will teach the true Christianity that Jesus is merely a prophet(that means burn cross). Jesus will not negate Christianity but Jesus will correct the Christianity and Christianity will be same with Islam in faith.(There is only one, unique God)

In Al-Imran 48 verse god say "He will teach him writting and wisdom(that means Book in original text) *… And Book imply Qur’an. So Jesus taught Torah and Bible and also he will come back to teach Qur’an either.(He will approve Qur’an).

In Gospels return of Jesus:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22

Perhaps Jesus warn who added that into Gospels"Jesus is God, son of God"

Hey Hasantas; again I notice you quoted The Book of Revelation. What is your belief on that book?

 

[Della]

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify * you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ. Al-Imran(3):55

158-Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.
159-And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness. An-Nısa(4)

48-And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel Al-Imran(3)

In Hadiths it is mentioned that: Jesus will come back and fight against Dejjal and evil. Jesus will teach the true Christianity that Jesus is merely a prophet(that means burn cross). Jesus will not negate Christianity but Jesus will correct the Christianity and Christianity will be same with Islam in faith.(There is only one, unique God)

In Al-Imran 48 verse god say "He will teach him writting and wisdom(that means Book in original text) *… And Book imply Qur’an. So Jesus taught Torah and Bible and also he will come back to teach Qur’an either.(He will approve Qur’an).

In Gospels return of Jesus:

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22

Perhaps Jesus warn who added that into Gospels"Jesus is God, son of God"

Perhaps not. IOW, no.

 

[hasantas]

Hey Hasantas; again I notice you quoted The Book of Revelation. What is your belief on that book?

I am not intellectual about Bible. I read Revelation . I think John learned that from Jesus not from an angel. Angel do not come a human to reveal.

God inform prophets about important events which will happen in the future. But prophets explain that knowledge in metaphorical way. So most of issues in Revelation are in a figurative way which are difficult to understand exactly.

Jesus tell some importand events which will happen in the future. Some of these are about churchs and believers. Sometimes Jesus tell what will happen in a close time. Sometimes Jesus warn churchs. Sometimes Jesus tell about far events. Main parts are about the end of the world and that times. Some times Jesus tell about Heavens…

God had informed Jesus about many things. And Jesus had declared some of these in a figurative way. That is what I understand. Maybe you can tell more because you are more well-informed about Jesus and Bible than me.

 

[jakasaki]

I am not intellectual about Bible. I read Revelation . I think John learned that from Jesus not from an angel. Angel do not come a human to reveal.

… snip…

.

Wait… what…???

What do you mean by “angel do not come a human to reveal”?

Isn’t Islam’s claim that Angel Gabriel came to Mohammad in a cave to reveal the recitation of the Quran…?

 

[dronald]

I am not intellectual about Bible. I read Revelation . I think John learned that from Jesus not from an angel. Angel do not come a human to reveal.

God inform prophets about important events which will happen in the future. But prophets explain that knowledge in metaphorical way. So most of issues in Revelation are in a figurative way which are difficult to understand exactly.

Jesus tell some importand events which will happen in the future. Some of these are about churchs and believers. Sometimes Jesus tell what will happen in a close time. Sometimes Jesus warn churchs. Sometimes Jesus tell about far events. Main parts are about the end of the world and that times. Some times Jesus tell about Heavens…

God had informed Jesus about many things. And Jesus had declared some of these in a figurative way. That is what I understand. Maybe you can tell more because you are more well-informed about Jesus and Bible than me.

Have you ever thought to read the book of Revelation in its entirety, if you haven’t already?

Do you believe every word in Revelation is true, or do you believe some of it is lies? As you quoted, God said “If anyone adds or takes away words in this book, it’s a very bad thing.” Do you believe that happened?

 

[hasantas]

Wait… what…???

What do you mean by “angel do not come a human to reveal”?

Isn’t Islam’s claim that Angel Gabriel came to Mohammad in a cave to reveal the recitation of the Quran…?

I mean Angel come to prophets to reveal holy scriptures not to human who is not a prophet.

 

[hasantas]

Have you ever thought to read the book of Revelation in its entirety, if you haven’t already?

Do you believe every word in Revelation is true, or do you believe some of it is lies? As you quoted, God said “If anyone adds or takes away words in this book, it’s a very bad thing.” Do you believe that happened?

I have read entire. It is not right to say “lie”. John was disciple of Jesus so I believe in him. But we can discuss the text in other manner.

We know the writers of Gospels did very faults in writting and translation. A little difference in text especially in a holy scripture may cause serious misunderstanding. Sometimes writers added their comprehension. The original and spirit of Gospel is holy but the text cannot be recognised equally. Because text of Bible is not original. And we know the councils intervened the passages of Gospels to make canonical. We wish to have the very original Bible. That would be very helpful.

 

[dronald]

I have read entire. It is not right to say “lie”. John was disciple of Jesus so I believe in him. But we can discuss the text in other manner.

We know the writers of Gospels did very faults in writting and translation. A little difference in text especially in a holy scripture may cause serious misunderstanding. Sometimes writers added their comprehension. The original and spirit of Gospel is holy but the text cannot be recognised equally. Because text of Bible is not original. And we know the councils intervened the passages of Gospels to make canonical. We wish to have the very original Bible. That would be very helpful.

Can we use history and textual criticism (that is; study earliest texts to know what the originals said) in order to conclude what has been changed and what hasn’t?

For example; nothing in John’s Revelation has been changed or altered, and yet you don’t believe it’s 100% accurate. As a Muslim are you allowed to look into the history of the book and conclude that it is indeed the same now as it was when it was written?

 

[hasantas]

Can we use history and textual criticism (that is; study earliest texts to know what the originals said) in order to conclude what has been changed and what hasn’t?

For example; nothing in John’s Revelation has been changed or altered, and yet you don’t believe it’s 100% accurate. As a Muslim are you allowed to look into the history of the book and conclude that it is indeed the same now as it was when it was written?

You can use textual criticism and that is very helpful. But if you would do that also try to do that with concepts of others either but not only with yours.

That is not about permission! Can you say that all copies of Gospels are same exactly? Jesus did not write verses but Muhammed did. Disciples of Jesus were trustable but we have not accurate knowledge about them and what they wrote. Do we have?

I think the position of Gospels are same with Hadiths because there are some objects about some Hadiths(especially by some Muslims). That is because the Hadiths were not written under authority of prophet. Many people added into or fabricated Hadiths. And now it is not absolutely possible to seperate the true and false.

Islam allow Muslims to think freely. Islamic scholar tell that Gospels were corrupted partially and they show that with evidences. But if a Muslim claim that Gospels were not changed and altered then he must prove that.

 

[Della]

You can use textual criticism and that is very helpful. But if you would do that also try to do that with concepts of others either but not only with yours.

That is not about permission! Can you say that all copies of Gospels are same exactly? Jesus did not write verses but Muhammed did. Disciples of Jesus were trustable but we have not accurate knowledge about them and what they wrote. Do we have?

I think the position of Gospels are same with Hadiths because there are some objects about some Hadiths(especially by some Muslims). That is because the Hadiths were not written under authority of prophet. Many people added into or fabricated Hadiths. And now it is not absolutely possible to seperate the true and false.

Islam allow Muslims to think freely. Islamic scholar tell that Gospels were corrupted partially and they show that with evidences. But if a Muslim claim that Gospels were not changed and altered then he must prove that.

The problem with this whole idea is that Catholics are people of any book–we aren’t. We do not believe what we believe because it is written anywhere by anyone.

So then, why do Catholics believe what they believe? Because Jesus founded his Church and gave his Church the authority to speak in his name on all matters of faith and morals.

The NT is merely the earliest writings of the Apostles and believers (Mark and Luke). The NT consists mostly of eye witness accounts and admonitions to the early Church. The Gospels, Epistles, and Revelation are not the sole source of our beliefs–rather the constant teachings of the Church are.

Once you grasp this fact you can let go of the mistaken belief that everything needs to line up perfectly in the Gospels or that the writings must have come down to us in their pure form. Neither of those matter in the least because our faith is NOT based on the NT. The NT is a WITNESS to the Church, not the other way around.

 

[hasantas]

The problem with this whole idea is that Catholics are people of any book–we aren’t. We do not believe what we believe because it is written anywhere by anyone.

So then, why do Catholics believe what they believe? Because Jesus founded his Church and gave his Church the authority to speak in his name on all matters of faith and morals.

The NT is merely the earliest writings of the Apostles and believers (Mark and Luke). The NT consists mostly of eye witness accounts and admonitions to the early Church. The Gospels, Epistles, and Revelation are not the sole source of our beliefs–rather the constant teachings of the Church are.

Once you grasp this fact you can let go of the mistaken belief that everything needs to line up perfectly in the Gospels or that the writings must have come down to us in their pure form. Neither of those matter in the least because our faith is NOT based on the NT. The NT is a WITNESS to the Church, not the other way around.

If we put away the Bible then what will be remain in Christianity? The holy tradition? What about the faults which were made by Churchs?

Ofcourse there is no need to every details being in scripture but the scripture is the base and every thing is established on the ground of the scripture. People may have different concepts. If we do not rest on a right base how do people reconcile?

 

[dronald]

You can use textual criticism and that is very helpful. But if you would do that also try to do that with concepts of others either but not only with yours.

That is not about permission! Can you say that all copies of Gospels are same exactly? Jesus did not write verses but Muhammed did. Disciples of Jesus were trustable but we have not accurate knowledge about them and what they wrote. Do we have?

I think the position of Gospels are same with Hadiths because there are some objects about some Hadiths(especially by some Muslims). That is because the Hadiths were not written under authority of prophet. Many people added into or fabricated Hadiths. And now it is not absolutely possible to seperate the true and false.

Islam allow Muslims to think freely. Islamic scholar tell that Gospels were corrupted partially and they show that with evidences. But if a Muslim claim that Gospels were not changed and altered then he must prove that.

I think it’s interesting that you said “Islamic scholar” instead of, “The majority of scholars.”

Now, instead of arguing about the entire Bible, I want to focus specifically on Revelation; because you brought it up.

The book of Revelation, historically has not been changed. If we look at the earliest documents and the earliest quotations by early Christians, we see that it’s always been the same.

So again I ask by what evidence do you say that Revelation could be partially true but not entirely?

 

[Della]

If we put away the Bible then what will be remain in Christianity? The holy tradition? What about the faults which were made by Churchs?

Scripture is not separate from Sacred Tradition, it is integral to it. Having stated that, like any written document it needs interpretation by a reliable authority. And that’s the crux of the matter–who has proper authority? The Church does because Christ gave it that authority. Persons within the Church have been at fault in the administration of their offices, but the Church cannot err in matters of faith and morals because she has been promised the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who cannot err.

Ofcourse there is no need to every details being in scripture but the scripture is the base and every thing is established on the ground of the scripture. People may have different concepts. If we do not rest on a right base how do people reconcile?

Again, the Scriptures are not the basis for our beliefs–it is the witness to them. God has always used men to do his will in the world, not books–no matter how holy or inspired. The Bible informs us, directs us, and aids us but it is not the basis for our faith–Christ is–and the Church he established to teach and baptize in his name.