Jesus said:” Offer the wicked man no resistance.”

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(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
 
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
What then of all the wars commanded by God in sacred scripture?
 
What then of all the wars commanded by God in sacred scripture?
What of them? JP II said that “social justice can never be attained through violence, violence only ever destroys what it intends to create”. Fairly conclusive evidence that war is always a failure for humanity don’t you think?

CCC 2309 states:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
    These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
    The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
2307 & 8 State:

2307 **The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.**105

[2308](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2308.htm’)😉 **All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. **However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106
 
What then of all the wars commanded by God in sacred scripture?
Jesus is God and he was speaking for the Father. Jesus came here to complete the Law. Notice he said: (Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” Jesus made new rules, but it seems many of his followers are not up to obeying the new rules.
 
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
He is talking about persecution for the gospel, not in every matter under the sun.
There is no such thing as a just war
Tell that to the millions of holocaust victims under the Nazi’s or the 100 million communism killed in the 20th century. Defending the innocent is always just.

Mel
 
war and superior firepower in whatever form has solved and will continue to solve most human conflicts that arise.

from hannibal’s calvary to hiroshima - its brute force that breaks wills. the only thing that kept the cold war from exploding was the thread of mutually assured destruction… not happy thoughts and lollipops.

The good people will always be charged with destroying the unjust aggressor. even in heaven, the angels drove satan out with a WAR. from the beginning there was war. and until the end there will continue to be war.
 
What of them? JP II said that “social justice can never be attained through violence, violence only ever destroys what it intends to create”. Fairly conclusive evidence that war is always a failure for humanity don’t you think?

CCC 2309 states:

The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:
  • the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
  • all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
  • there must be serious prospects of success;
  • the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.
    These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.
    The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.
2307 & 8 State:

2307 **The fifth commandment forbids the intentional destruction of human life. Because of the evils and injustices that accompany all war, the Church insistently urges everyone to prayer and to action so that the divine Goodness may free us from the ancient bondage of war.**105

[2308](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2308.htm’)😉 **All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war. **However, "as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed."106
That is right the state has the right to wage war. The state is part of the world, but a Christian isn’t part of the world, so has no right ]to be part of the world.

(John 15:18-19) “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world because my choice withdrew you from the world.”

You should see the world needs laws and enforcers of the law to protect it from the wicked.

Christians don’t need law. Christians are not part of the world. The lord of the world is Satan. Jesus is a Christian’s Lord and he obeys his Word.
 
Yes, FightingFat, we are to work for the avoidance of war. It doesn’t say there’s no such thing as a *just *war, though.

And, my question was more narrowly-worded than that. I’m interested in finding out if there are no just wars, whether those commanded by God weren’t just.
 
Christians don’t need law. Christians are not part of the world. The lord of the world is Satan. Jesus is a Christian’s Lord and he obeys his Word.
How do you propose we separate ourselves from the world that requires governance by laws, and what would you do with the following scripture:

Romans 13:1 (NIV) - Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

That doesn’t have an out clause for Christians 🤷
 
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
How then can the Church approve of any war? There is no such thing as a just war.
First let us examine the Scripture which you justify this. Because i would see the Bible as a single coherent work, and don’t like it when people justify morality by taking a verse out of context. (The Bible must be read in the context, in the light of, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and historical cultural period).

Here is the entire context of that particular discourse within Matthew, within the Bible as it was spoken 2000 years ago, but we are not here interpreting it yet in the light of sacred tradition. . .

Matthew 5:38 *You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.
39 *But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other:
40 *And if a man will contend with thee in judgment, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him.
41 *And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two,
42 *Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away.

With this context we see that Saint Matthew the Apostle is saying let them be wicked, but don’t be wicked, let bygones be bygones, but don’t make it your sin by attacking them. But let it be their sin, and forgive them for it. This is for the sake of your own sin.

I think a more revelant quote pertaining to war is this:

Revelation 13:10 *He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Further there is a conjuctive verse (keep this one Rev. 13:10 in mind and read this one and keep it in mind a moment)

Matthew 13:45 *Again the kingdom of heaven is like to a merchant seeking good pearls.
46 *Who when he had found one pearl of great price, went his way, and sold all that he had, and bought it.

the key, i believe to rev. 13:10 is that “the saints” do not kill lest they be killed, this is do unto others as you’d have done unto you. We see that those who would overcome and be Saints from Matthew 13:45-46 that we should in this give up the things and treasures of this world to pursue Sainthood. Why then would you fight for this world if your treasures were in HEAVEN and not here?

Now saying that we see Saints have been warriors. Very few of them warriors of the flesh, most of them have been warriors of the SPIRIT who seek to conquer the territory of the heart, to overcome and recieve THE PROMISED LAND which is HEAVEN. Now we do see some have families, and things of this world, and that is why they fight. That is a good vocation though, and one which GOD has given them. We are required to do these things in CHRIST, and sooner or later the harvest will come. That is the status quo won’t continue forever, but in HEAVEN they do not marry. The fruits of marriage being children, and these children will be the Saints of GOD, those who do the will of GOD THE FATHER. Let the chaff grow among the wheat until the day of harvest.

My point is, some are called out of this world to serve CHRIST, in fact we are all called to be great Saints. For the time being in this world people marry and have children, but we must also see in the call to be Saints we must serve one another, and pray for one another, that we all may go to HEAVEN.

The kind of warrior a person is depends on where their treasures are. The person who has put their treasures in HEAVEN fight for salvation of the soul. The person who has their treasures on Earth fight to protect their family and children.

We do see however this excuse for war, the protection of freedom and this world for raising families, won’t be a good excuse when they murder their own children, as in abortion. This was in the past nuclear deterent nobody would blow themselves up because they LOVED their children. But now, they abort them, saying they don’t want to have children, but why then the cry to protect them? There is clearly the righteous and the unrighteous in this SPIRITual war, and 50,000,000 aborted babies witness against those who ar protecting their wealth in this world. This leads me to conclude there will soon be nuclear war.

We must see that we should all honor the call to be Saints, keep the commandments, purge the world, and put our treasures in HEAVEN, for surely JESUS comes quickly.

LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Amen.
 
If you have two cloaks, sell one and buy a sword.

Jesus was not a pacifist. Some cherry-pick scripture for selfish political / social reasons.

If there were no just war doctrine, and if we offered no resistance. Christianity and Judaism would have ceased long long ago. You would have to go back many many many generations to even hear of an old legendary figure named Jesus Christ. We would pray five times a day to Mecca, or not know what prayer even is (socialism) and no where in the world would the Word of Christ be read, spoken, or preached.
 
What makes you think so? It’s not obvious from the passage.

Thanks!
Good point. The whole context is the sermon on the mount which is gospel oriented, and He is talking about being salt and light prior to the section mentioned. So I think it is a fair assumption from the context of Matthew 5, if not explicitly stated, it is about the personal implications of the gospel. However, I will correct myself by admitting I missed the bigger point of the immediate context, which is about interpersonal (one on one) behavior when the individual Christian is wronged and how we are to react in certain circumstances. Which still shows that the OP misunderstands Jesus’ point. He is not talking about nations etc. He is talking about the individual believer.

In fact for the OP to be consistent he would have to be against the police.

Mel
 
If you have two cloaks, sell one and buy a sword.

Jesus was not a pacifist. Some cherry-pick scripture for selfish political / social reasons.

If there were no just war doctrine, and if we offered no resistance. Christianity and Judaism would have ceased long long ago. You would have to go back many many many generations to even hear of an old legendary figure named Jesus Christ. We would pray five times a day to Mecca, or not know what prayer even is (socialism) and no where in the world would the Word of Christ be read, spoken, or preached.
Remember the Lord’s Prayer? Our Father in heaven hallowed be they name, they kingdom come, they will be done. I God wants us to live we will live. No matter what you do when he wants you to die you will die.

Jesus told us to love our enemies. Now to love Jesus is to do what he told us to do. If someone wants to defend themselves or others by hurting the attacker, then who is it that he or she loves more?

(Matthew 10:37-39) “Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who does not take his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.”
 
If you have two cloaks, sell one and buy a sword.

Jesus was not a pacifist. Some cherry-pick scripture for selfish political / social reasons.
A little charity, please. I have no agenda, other than learning more about Jesus. This is a passage I have struggled with for a long time.
If there were no just war doctrine, and if we offered no resistance. Christianity and Judaism would have ceased long long ago.
Unless, of course, God were to intervene and protect His church in some way. Not the most crazy belief, is it?
 
So then Ghandi was correct in your opinion when he said that the Jews should not have offered resistance but just let the Nazis slaughter them?

Do you think that it was God’s will that all Christians be converted to Islam or killed without any resistance during the rule of the Ottoman empire and before?

Do you think God is disappointed because we have not all allowed ourselves to be martyered and have his Word fade into obscurity?

Or do you believe we are delaying the second coming of Christ because it will not happen until all of His flock are passed?

I believe He wanted us to spread His gospel through all the world. It’s VERY difficult to preach the word as a corpse. The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church, but such wholescale persecution such as that at the hands of the Ottomans would have left no one to worship.

Again I will say that you are selectively referencing scripture. I do not believe that God wants us all to be, basically suicidal. Have hope and faith and spread the Word. Do not hurry into oblivion because you think martyrdom will make you a saint.
 
Furthermore, there is a lot of information on this very site regarding “Just War Doctrine”

A few nuggets from the above linked page…
In the Beatitudes, Jesus tells us “blessed are the peacemakers” (Matt. 5:9). Elsewhere in the Sermon on the Mount he tells us “if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also” (Matt. 5:39). From such verses some have concluded that Christianity is a pacifist religion and that violence is never permitted.
But the same Jesus elsewhere acknowledges the legitimate use of force, telling the apostles, “let him who has no sword sell his mantle and buy one” (Luke 22:36). How are these passages to be reconciled?
In broad terms, Christians must not love violence. They must promote peace whenever possible and be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so when it is called for. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.
Added weight is given to this realization when one recognizes that Scripture – all of Scripture – is inspired by God (2 Tim. 3:16). This means that the Old Testament is just as inspired as the New Testament and thus an expression of the will of Christ.
The Old Testament acknowledges frankly that there is “a time to kill” (Eccles. 3:3). At various times in the Old Testament, God commanded the Israelites to defend their nation by force of arms. Yet it was always with the recognition that peace is the goal to be worked for. Thus the psalmist exclaims, “how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!” (Ps. 133:1). Peace is the goal, but when it cannot be achieved without force, force must be used.
and
As the Second Vatican Council noted, “insofar as men are sinful, the threat of war hangs over them, and hang over them it will until the return of Christ” (Gaudium et Spes 78). The danger of war will never be completely removed prior to the Second Coming.
Christ’s followers must be willing to meet this challenge. They must be willing to wage war when it is just and they must be willing to wage it in a just manner.
Simultaneously, they must work to establish a just and peaceful order among the nations. In so doing they seek to fulfill the words of the prophet, according to which the nations “shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more” (Is. 2:4)
What is evil if it is not the abortion industry and genetic manipulation (spare-part-babies) idolized by the secular socialist movements spreading like wildfire?

What is evil if it is not the messages of Mohammed, interpreted by Islamic radicals as to allow or even compel pedophilia (8 year old age of marriage), female genital mutilation, and the conversion or death of the “sons of apes and pigs”?

Scripture DOES tell us to seek peace wherever and whenever we can, but DO NOT yield to evil. Indeed fight evil when and where you must.

God bless you friends and have a great weekend.
 
This is an old debate, and it was lively too when I was young ((40 years ago).
I think though that we should somehow look at this saying restrictively. Who would advocate getting rid of all police? That is another way society resists evil.
 
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