Jesus saves

[fred_conty]

I am very encouraged that sincere non-Catholics can participate here to help us Catholics get closer to God.

I am amazed that so many of best Pauline scholars are non-Catholic and their views help us to understand Paul. But still at the moment I am studying Matera and Fitzmyer, recommended here.

You might like to look at

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/angl-comm-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_1991_catholic-response-arcici_en.html

and

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_01081998_off-answer-catholic_en.html

These are Catholic-Anglican and Catholic-Lutheran statements.

Paul is the favourite over Peter with many christians. Even to the point of trying to play down and ignore Peter since he was appointed the head. And so Paul is played up while the others are delicately looked upon.

And some go further as denying any role to the twelve apostles by saying that Paul took over their role. I was listening on TV to one man who taught the bible saying this very thing. This of course is an effort to do away with the need of sacrifice and priesthood, which would also eliminate the need for the sacraments, especially the Eucharist.

I’m not saying this to disparage them but simple to give an understanding to the bent of their belief.

 

[NoelFitz]

Fred Conty #21

Thank you. I appreciate your contribution.

St Andrew, nicknamed The First Called, is favo(u)red by the Orthodox, as he was the first apostle to be chosen by Jesus.

 

[BornInMarch]

We are justified, saved, by faith, not by works. But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had? If our faith saves us, we save ourselves; if the faith of Jesus saves us he is our savior; he accepted the will of the father and underwent his passion and death for our sanctification, he saves us.

Sorry for going on about this issue, but I am concerned I think the issue is important.

You need good works in addition to your faith.

“Faith without works is dead.” - James 2:14-26

 

[Bookcat]

You need good works in addition to your faith.

“Faith without works is dead.” - James 2:14-26

Not what is being discussed here.

Discussing initial justification - no one can be justified by their good works.

 

[Cathoholic]

NoelFitz.

Justification is a lifelong process.

BEFORE JUSTIFICATION

There is graces initiated from God to humanity even BEFORE we are justified.

This is called God’s prevenient grace.

This is not earned or merited. This is from the superabundant goodness of God.

INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

There are special graces when we accept that “drawing us to Him” in a most excellent way. This MOMENT, is being born again, or born from above, or Baptized.

But this grace, is just the entrance ramp to the Christian life.

Now that we have been given God’s Divine life in us, and we are in Him (totally undeservingly I might add), we MUST respond to those “talents” or graces we are undeservingly given.

AFTER WE ARE INITIALLY JUSTIFIED WE MUST BE FURTHER JUSTIFIED

After we are initially justified, we must be “further justified still” as the Council of Trent points out. And this is a lifelong process.

After we receive the graces we do at this point, then we MUST respond by our free will in CONJUNCTION with God’s grace, to grow in faith, hope, AND charitible working.

We must DO this according to our state in life (more is expected from a healthy adult than a little child. Or as Jesus says, “to whom much is given, much will be REQUIRED”).

The WORKS required of us that matter, are inspired by God, and moved by God. But they must ALSO be cooperated with us.

This mysteriously involves grace too . . . . But grace that NEVER violates our free will.

How that all works is a mystery.

I hope this helps you.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Bookcat]

INITIAL JUSTIFICATION

But this grace, is just the entrance ramp to the Christian life.

Now that we have been given God’s Divine life in us, and we are in Him (totally undeservingly I might add), we MUST respond to those “talents” or graces we are undeservingly given.

Did not read all the post but perusing it I have to stop and note that I would not quite put it that way. I understand where you were heading but I would not say “just the entrance ramp the Christian life”.

That like saying the Apollo missions were just the entrance of man into the air…

---

You started to say more there when noting the Divine Life in us…

*New Creation! *, being “In Christ” …“temple of the Holy Spirit”…true life etc etc

 

[Cathoholic]

Bookcat:

I understand where you were heading but I would not say “just the entrance ramp the Christian life”.

Criticism well taken Bookcat. Thank you.

---

Let me clarify so I don’t instill confusion . . . .

I meant it as . . . . “This is just the beginning of the Christian life.”

(Not that it is “just” or “merely” Baptism)

I will reword it to say “gateway to life in the Spirit” which is by grace and gives MORE grace.

I will also take this opportunity to re-emphasize . . . “There are special graces when we accept that “drawing us to Him” (this is WHEN we are Baptized) in a most excellent way” AND reassert, “we have been given God’s Divine life in us”.

CCC 1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

Baptism is the first of the three Sacraments of Christian initiation.

CCC 1212a,c The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism, Confirmation, and the Eucharist - lay the foundations of every Christian life. . . . . By means of these sacraments of Christian initiation, they thus receive in increasing measure the treasures of the divine life and advance toward the perfection of charity."3

And concerning the grace I discussed in relation to Baptism, here is some unpacking of THAT too.

Grace is God’s favor NoelFitz.

But don’t stop at God’s “favor”. There’s more.

Grace (in the New Covenant sense) ALSO INCLUDES a “participation” or a “sharing” or a “koinonia” in the life of God.

The Graces we get associated with Baptism initiate us into the life of God.

CCC 1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

CCC 1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an “adopted son” he can henceforth call God “Father,” in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

 

[Bookcat]

Some readings from Pope Benedict XVI - the reality of Baptism

Baptism… is also more than a simple washing, more than a kind of purification and beautification of the soul. It is truly death and resurrection, rebirth, transformation to a new life.

~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2006

The early Church described Baptism as fotismos, as the Sacrament of illumination, as a communication of light, and linked it inseparably with the resurrection of Christ. In Baptism, God says to the candidate: “Let there be light!” The candidate is brought into the light of Christ. Christ now divides the light from the darkness. In him we recognize what is true and what is false, what is radiance and what is darkness.

~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2009

This is the reality of Baptism: he, the Risen One, comes; he comes to you and joins his life with yours, drawing you into the open fire of his love.

~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2008

Jesus descended for us into the dark waters of death. But through his blood, so the Letter to the Hebrews tells us, he was brought back from death: his love united itself to the Father’s love, and thus from the abyss of death he was able to rise to life. Now he raises us from the waters of death to true life. This is exactly what happens in Baptism: he draws us towards himself, he draws us into true life. He leads us through the often murky sea of history, where we are frequently in danger of sinking amid all the confusion and perils. In Baptism he takes us, as it were, by the hand, he leads us along the path that passes through the Red Sea of this life and introduces us to everlasting life, the true and upright life. Let us grasp his hand firmly! Whatever may happen, whatever may befall us, let us not lose hold of his hand! Let us walk along the path that leads to life.

~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2008

In this sense it is true that anyone who does not know God, even though he may entertain all kinds of hopes, is ultimately without hope, without the great hope that sustains the whole of life (cf. Eph 2:12). Man’s great, true hope which holds firm in spite of all disappointments can only be God—God who has loved us and who continues to love us “to the end,” until all “is accomplished” (cf. Jn 13:1 and 19:30). Whoever is moved by love begins to perceive what “life” really is. He begins to perceive the meaning of the word of hope that we encountered in the Baptismal Rite: from faith I await “eternal life”—the true life which, whole and unthreatened, in all its fullness, is simply life. Jesus, who said that he had come so that we might have life and have it in its fullness, in abundance (cf. Jn 10:10), has also explained to us what “life” means: “this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent” (Jn 17:3). Life in its true sense is not something we have exclusively in or from ourselves: it is a relationship. And life in its totality is a relationship with him who is the source of life. If we are in relation with him who does not die, who is Life itself and Love itself, then we are in life. Then we “live”.

~ Pope Benedict XVI On Christian Hope (Spe Salvi) 27

In Baptism we give ourselves over to Christ – he takes us unto himself, so that we no longer live for ourselves, but through him, with him and in him; so that we live with him and thus for others. In Baptism we surrender ourselves, we place our lives in his hands, and so we can say with Saint Paul, “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

~ Pope Benedict XVI Homily Easter Vigil 2007

w2.vatican.va/content/vatican…detto-xvi.html

 

[Bookcat]

"In the sixth chapter of the Letter to the Romans, St Paul speaks of Baptism in a very profound way. We have heard the text but it might be useful to repeat it: “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (6: 3-4).

In this Catechesis I cannot of course enter into a detailed interpretation of this far from easy text. I would like to note briefly just three points. The first: “we have been baptized” is a passive. No one can baptize himself, he needs the other. No one can become Christian on his own. Becoming Christian is a passive process. Only by another can we be made Christians and this “other” who makes us Christians, who gives us the gift of faith, is in the first instance the community of believers, the Church. From the Church we receive faith, Baptism. Unless we let ourselves be formed by this community we do not become Christians. An autonomous, self-produced Christianity is a contradiction in itself. In the first instance, this “other” is the community of believers, the Church, yet in the second instance this community does not act on its own either, according to its own ideas and desires. The community also lives in the same passive process: Christ alone can constitute the Church. Christ is the true giver of the sacraments. This is the first point: no one baptizes himself, no one makes himself a Christian. We become Christians.

This is the second point: Baptism is more than a cleansing. It is death and resurrection. Paul himself, speaking in the Letter to the Galatians of the turning point in his life brought about by his encounter with the Risen Christ, describes it with the words: I am dead. At that moment a new life truly begins. Becoming Christian is more than a cosmetic operation that would add something beautiful to a more or less complete existence. It is a new beginning, it is rebirth: death and resurrection. Obviously in the resurrection what was good in the previous existence reemerges.

The third point is: matter is part of the sacrament. Christianity is not a purely spiritual reality. It implies the body. It implies the cosmos. It is extended toward the new earth and the new heavens. Let us return to the last words of St Paul’s text. In this way he said, “we too might walk in newness of life”. It constitutes an examination of conscience for all of us: to walk in newness of life. This applies to Baptism."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedi…_20081210.html

 

[goout]

The realization of grace requires the co-operation of the individual, plain and simple.
God does not force himself on anyone.

Baptism is what it is, objectively, but the gift must be opened.

 

[Bookcat]

The realization of grace requires the co-operation of the individual, plain and simple.
God does not force himself on anyone.

Baptism is what it is, objectively, but the gift must be opened.

And it need never be closed and in need of re-opening.

 

[Cathoholic]

And it (Baptism) need never be closed and in need of re-opening.

True enough.

But Baptism DOES need to be built upon (for those that can). And if someone REFUSES to serve, he in effect IS “closing” his/her Baptism.

 

[Bookcat]

True enough.

But Baptism DOES need to be built upon (for those that can). And if someone REFUSES to serve, he in effect IS “closing” his/her Baptism.

Yes one is to LIVE the reality of baptism and live it more and more…

And thankfully a good Confession can bring a renewal.

 

[NoelFitz]

We are justified, saved, by faith, not by works. But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had? If our faith saves us, we save ourselves; if the faith of Jesus saves us he is our savior; he accepted the will of the father and underwent his passion and death for our sanctification, he saves us.

Sorry for going on about this issue, but I am concerned I think the issue is important.

Thanks for all the replies, but most do not answer my principal concern.

I repeat the question: “But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had?” This has not been answered clearly.

There is a corollary, if Jesus saves us, does this affect our free will? This is a lesser concern, as there is general agreement that Jesus saves.

 

[NoelFitz]

Bookcat #29 reconsidered

I appreciate all your replies to me, as they are solid, deep, Catholic and positive, even though at times they are beyond my pay-grade, as a simple Catholic.

In this post I see the claim that the Church baptizes us. At first I doubted this, but on reflection I see how profound it is, as the priest when he says “I baptize you…” speaks as Christ, who is the head of the Church, his mystical body.

So I was very impressed with your theology, but then I saw that you were quoting B XVI, the finest living theologian.

He is a great theologian, but I still hold so are you!!

 

[NoelFitz]

Cathoholic #25

This post is about justification, and not really to the point of this thread.

Recently I am somewhat obsessed with grace. In general I agree with you, but I would like to know more about justification, sanctification, grace, gift, righteousness, mercy, etc.

I think progress would be best for me by tackling these by isolating, where possible, the essentials.

 

[fhansen]

Cathoholic #25

This post is about justification, and not really to the point of this thread.

Recently I am somewhat obsessed with grace. In general I agree with you, but I would like to know more about justification, sanctification, grace, gift, righteousness, mercy, etc.

I think progress would be best for me by tackling these by isolating, where possible, the essentials.

If you haven’t already, these two sections from the Catechism under Part 3, ch 3 entitled “GOD’S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE” are well worth reading on these subjects:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks for all the replies, but most do not answer my principal concern.

I repeat the question: “But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had?” This has not been answered clearly.

There is a corollary, if Jesus saves us, does this affect our free will? This is a lesser concern, as there is general agreement that Jesus saves.

Yes it is faith IN Jesus (as Paul notes and as Pope Benedict notes etc) rather than a faith “of” Jesus.

One can say that Jesus “sees” rather than ‘has faith’. He can be said to* not *have faith like human persons. He IS the Son of God.

Yes “Jesus saves us” - he saves us by his death and resurrection…this salvation is received by us by grace through faith and baptism.

And yes it involves our free will (which is not without grace - as Jesus notes - apart from me you can do nothing)

CCC

Faith is a grace

153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’"25

Faith is a human act

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

155 In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."27

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c3a1.htm#162

 

[Cathoholic]

This post is about justification, and not really to the point of this thread.

I guess I am not sure what your point is:shrug:.

NoelFitz.

Grace is intrinsically interwoven with justification.

No grace = no justification.

You said in your original post . . . .

We are justified, saved, by faith, not by works. But is this faith our faith in Jesus or the faith of Jesus, the faith, trust, he had? If our faith saves us, we save ourselves; if the faith of Jesus saves us he is our savior; he accepted the will of the father and underwent his passion and death for our sanctification, he saves us.

Let’s break it down.

We are justified, saved, by faith,

Saving faith necessarily includes grace NoelFitz.

You also stated . . .

not by works.

Be careful with this.

“Works” CAN be a grace too.

You can do works APART from the Divine life that we receive at Baptism.

The Old Covenant was full of those kinds of “unsaving works”.

But there are ALSO works when God is at work IN YOU (after Baptism).

These works DO figure into your justification St. Paul tells us. (If you want I can expound on those verses)

---

These works DO figure into your justification. That’s WHY I differentiated between grace that occurs PRIOR to justification . . . .

. . . . Graces we receive DURING justification . . . .

. . . . .And graces we MUST cooperate with AFTER our initial justification.

(I made those distinctions here).

---

You also said . . .

If our faith saves us, we save ourselves;

This is a partial truth.

“If our faith saves us”

It is not our natural faith that saves us.

The faith, hope, and charity we receive are called the three SUPERNATURAL virtues. They are graces. So in a sense “our” faith, cannot save us.

Faith is a human act. But faith is ALSO a grace. Supernatural faith (like any other grace) is an undeserved gift from God.

That’s WHY Trent (quoting Hebrews) says Jesus is . . . .

the sun of justice, Christ Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith . . .

And we must cooperate in this as well.

There is a natural aspect and a supernatural aspect to “faith”. BOTH are necessary.

**Faith is a grace **

CCC 153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.24 Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’"25

Faith is a human act

CCC 154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to “yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals”,26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

You also said . . .

if the faith of Jesus saves us he is our savior;

That is true, He is our savior.

And I would add that the WORKS of Jesus in us and through us (after Baptism) saves us too and He is therefore seen as our Savior even more profoundly.

he accepted the will of the father and underwent his passion and death for our sanctification

Yes and NOW after Baptism, we PARTICIPATE in the LIFE of Christ.

That sanctification is part of our ongoing justification.

We are saved by “belief in the Truth” or belief in the Catholic faith and He who is truth but we are ALSO saved through sanctification as part of the package.

That’s WHY St. Paul can say . . . .

2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit AND belief in the truth.

 

[NoelFitz]

Thanks for all the replies.
I am very grateful that so many have gone to such lengths to participate.
I think all my problems are linked and it is difficult to isolate them.
I thought I could start at the beginning and resolve problems one by one. It has not really worked out.
My fundamental problem is I cannot see how a good God would create a being who would be miserable in hell for all eternity.
So I am concerned with the nature of God, free will, grace, justification, sin, salvation, etc.

Fundamentally the only answer for me is to accept I do not understand the ways of God, and to hope that all may be well, and that God’s love and mercy will prevail for all.

Also this year Luther is being celebrated and Catholics should try to understand him, so I am trying to read Barclay’s Paul and the Gift, and presently I am struggling with Augustine.