Jesus" siblings

[adrift]

I edited my previous post
as to bar dod I looked it up in this lexionary and it doesn’t have it nor does it have a word for cousin. Neither was ben dod or bat dod found.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I edited my previous post
as to bar dod I looked it up in this lexionary and it doesn’t have it nor does it have a word for cousin. Neither was ben dod or bat dod found.

Just type “cousin” and click on “English Word” in English Search Field. A number of Aramaic examples come up.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I don’t speak the language. You quoted from a dictionary that I am unable to read and verify that the person isn’t just translating. It is written in a script I cannot read. That is why I asked you to provide the word. Why don’t you provide the word? I have the hunch that the dictionary is using one of the words already mentioned.

In looking, it seems that he is not using the same words for cousin. He references Lev 25:49 which is
So I think that I am right that he is translating it to be cousin.

I’m not sure who the “he” is here. Jimmy Akin? Also, in post #38, you insisted that we only discuss Aramaic and not Hebrew, and now you are flipping back to Hebrew, which I guess is OK but your statement seems to want to impose on me restrictions that you are not willing to follow yourself.

Leviticus 25:49 uses ben dod, which is the Hebrew equivalent of Aramaic bar dod, thus showing a near equivalent in another Semitic language and actually supporting my point.

The problem was you changed it from brona d-`ammeh to bar dod to prove your point and make it seem shorter.

brona d-`ammeh was Jimmy Akin’s totally concocted Aramaic expression, not mine. If you review his argument, it basically goes like this:

1. There is no word in Aramaic for cousin.
2. Because of this, they would have had to say “brona d-`ammeh” which he claims is “too much trouble”
3. Therefore they must use “brother” or other kinship terms when they actually mean cousin.

If you think I have misstated his argument, please tell me where you disagree.

What I showed above from a dictionary entry prepared by the world’s leading expert on Palestinian Aramaic (Michael Sokoloff) that there were a number of expressions available to refer to a cousin. I will transliterate all of them here in order from the link I previously provided.

bar dadan
bar dod
bar haviv
bar et dav
barat dod

Not only is there a perfectly good (and very easy) way to say cousin in Aramaic, there are actually several examples.

Futher, all of these available expressions are shorter than Jimmy Akin’s totally made up “brona d-`ammeh” And as I pointed out earlier, people have been using such expressions to refer to cousins for millenia and still do today. They are not “too much trouble.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just type “cousin” and click on “English Word” in English Search Field. A number of Aramaic examples come up.

But are those MODERN Aramaic or ancient Aramaic, and if ancient, how much and where? From what I understand, there were several different ‘schools’ of Aramaic or dialects even back in the time of Jesus, so just because a group who lived in say Smyrna in AD 60 had an example claimed to be used then (but the only written fragment that uses it is a translation from AD 400), it doesn’t mean that those who spoke Aramaic in Judea in AD 60 had an example,

Also from what I understand there was an advance in the language right around AD 80 or so (which is a time period when the gospels were being written and transcribed) so that a scribe taking down the ORAL words Jesus used in AD 30 might use the ‘new’ term that had come out around AD 80. Much as for example in AD 1960 men and women would refer to their dates as a ‘boyfriend or girlfriend’ but by AD 2000 that was largely replaced by ‘significant other’. "Significant other’ is NOT a term we would find in AD 1960 literature, but anybody who was say translating into English the 1950s French "Bonjour Tristesse’ might instead of saying 'boyfriend/girlfriend say ‘significant other’, even though that English term did not exist when the novel was written, and there is a significant difference in the concept of ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ of 1950 and the concept of ‘significant other’ in 2000. The two are NOT exactly the same.

"The GAY nineties’ of 1890 stories is NOT the same as the 'GAY nineties of 1990 U.S. ‘mainstreaming the gay lifestyle’. So if one replaced references to ‘gay’ in 1990 literature with ‘homosexual’ that would convey the correct meaning, but if one replaced it in 1890 literature with homosexual, one would be completely off track!!!

 

[Dave_Noonan]

But are those MODERN Aramaic or ancient Aramaic, and if ancient, how much and where? From what I understand, there were several different ‘schools’ of Aramaic or dialects even back in the time of Jesus, so just because a group who lived in say Smyrna in AD 60 had an example claimed to be used then (but the only written fragment that uses it is a translation from AD 400), it doesn’t mean that those who spoke Aramaic in Judea in AD 60 had an example,

Also from what I understand there was an advance in the language right around AD 80 or so (which is a time period when the gospels were being written and transcribed) so that a scribe taking down the ORAL words Jesus used in AD 30 might use the ‘new’ term that had come out around AD 80. Much as for example in AD 1960 men and women would refer to their dates as a ‘boyfriend or girlfriend’ but by AD 2000 that was largely replaced by ‘significant other’. "Significant other’ is NOT a term we would find in AD 1960 literature, but anybody who was say translating into English the 1950s French "Bonjour Tristesse’ might instead of saying 'boyfriend/girlfriend say ‘significant other’, even though that English term did not exist when the novel was written, and there is a significant difference in the concept of ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ of 1950 and the concept of ‘significant other’ in 2000. The two are NOT exactly the same.

"The GAY nineties’ of 1890 stories is NOT the same as the 'GAY nineties of 1990 U.S. ‘mainstreaming the gay lifestyle’. So if one replaced references to ‘gay’ in 1990 literature with ‘homosexual’ that would convey the correct meaning, but if one replaced it in 1890 literature with homosexual, one would be completely off track!!!

It was Adrift that was wanting to rely on this particular dictionary–not me. I was just trying to help him out by showing how it works. But actually the search engine is bringing up citations from the Peshitta, which would not be modern and roughly first or early second century, even if maybe(?) not Palestinian.

Yes, there are certainly many dialects of Aramaic, which is why I was trying to stick to Palestinian sources.

I don’t know about any significant shifts in the language around 80 AD, so it would be interesting to me to see a link or reference for that and some examples. Language changes tend to move pretty slowing in the ancient world when compared to today.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

But are those MODERN Aramaic or ancient Aramaic, and if ancient, how much and where? From what I understand, there were several different ‘schools’ of Aramaic or dialects even back in the time of Jesus, so just because a group who lived in say Smyrna in AD 60 had an example claimed to be used then (but the only written fragment that uses it is a translation from AD 400), it doesn’t mean that those who spoke Aramaic in Judea in AD 60 had an example,

Also from what I understand there was an advance in the language right around AD 80 or so (which is a time period when the gospels were being written and transcribed) so that a scribe taking down the ORAL words Jesus used in AD 30 might use the ‘new’ term that had come out around AD 80. Much as for example in AD 1960 men and women would refer to their dates as a ‘boyfriend or girlfriend’ but by AD 2000 that was largely replaced by ‘significant other’. "Significant other’ is NOT a term we would find in AD 1960 literature, but anybody who was say translating into English the 1950s French "Bonjour Tristesse’ might instead of saying 'boyfriend/girlfriend say ‘significant other’, even though that English term did not exist when the novel was written, and there is a significant difference in the concept of ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ of 1950 and the concept of ‘significant other’ in 2000. The two are NOT exactly the same.

"The GAY nineties’ of 1890 stories is NOT the same as the 'GAY nineties of 1990 U.S. ‘mainstreaming the gay lifestyle’. So if one replaced references to ‘gay’ in 1990 literature with ‘homosexual’ that would convey the correct meaning, but if one replaced it in 1890 literature with homosexual, one would be completely off track!!!

Just to clarify, all the Sokoloff examples (the transliterations) are ancient, not modern.

 

[adrift]

Just type “cousin” and click on “English Word” in English Search Field. A number of Aramaic examples come up.

It might be my computer but only nonsensical things pop up or it says nothing found. Since as it has been noted that this is a modern dictionary it doesn’t answer our question. However you have postulated bar dod which is unsubstantiated that this word existed in the time period we are speaking about or that it exist today:shrug:

 

[Dave_Noonan]

It might be my computer but only nonsensical things pop up or it says nothing found. Since as it has been noted that this is a modern dictionary it doesn’t answer our question. However you have postulated bar dod which is unsubstantiated that this word existed in the time period we are speaking about or that it exist today:shrug:

I’m not sure exactly what you find objectionable about the Sokoloff dictionary entries that I showed you and went to the trouble of transliterating, so perhaps you could elaborate on that. We also looked at the Leviticus verse which you cited, which says the same thing.

As the searchable Aramaic dictionary you referenced to helpfully points outs, see the Peshitta for Colossians 4:10. Here cousin = bar dod.

We could look at Esther 2:7 where cousin (feminine) = bat dod.

Since you want an example from today, see this source:

morfix.co.il/en/cousin

Again, ben dod.

 

[adrift]

I’m not sure exactly what you find objectionable about the Sokoloff dictionary entries that I showed you and went to the trouble of transliterating, so perhaps you could elaborate on that. We also looked at the Leviticus verse which you cited, which says the same thing.

As the searchable Aramaic dictionary you referenced to helpfully points outs, see the Peshitta for Colossians 4:10. Here cousin = bar dod.

We could look at Esther 2:7 where cousin (feminine) = bat dod.

Since you want an example from today, see this source:

morfix.co.il/en/cousin

Again, ben dod.

Who is the “we”.
I didn’t notice at first the dictionary comment because of the non-sense it returned

Lexicon
Word: hdd
Lexeme: 0dd
Root: 0dd
Word Number: 4195
Meaning: cousin
Pronunciation: (Eastern) D’aD,eH
(Western) D’oD,eH
Part of Speech: Noun
Gender: Masculine
Person:
Number: Singular
State: Emphatic
Tense:
Form:
Suffix Gender: Masculine
Suffix Person: Third
Suffix Number: Singular
Lexeme Form:

But they say meaning cousin not that it is a word for cousin. I can say the son of my uncle that means nephew but it isn’t the words I used. The words I used to mean nephew is a circumlocution . You have not provided any substantiation that the words you claim to be cousin are nothing more than a circumlocution.
I wanted to address a misunderstanding that you have

I’m not sure who the “he” is here. Jimmy Akin? Also, in post #38, you insisted that we only discuss Aramaic and not Hebrew, and now you are flipping back to Hebrew, which I guess is OK but your statement seems to want to impose on me restrictions that you are not willing to follow yourself

Sokoloff is the he that I refer too. Each verse that he names is not at all equivalent to saying cousin it is equivalent to saying the son of my uncle. I never flipped back to Hebrew. I was answering your linked dictionary that referred to the Hebrew. I have asked that you provide a word that means cousin and that I can verify. You provide a word that I cannot find independent of your statement.

Since you want an example from today, see this source:

morfix.co.il/en/cousin

Again, ben dod.

1. You misunderstand if you think I am wanting a source from today. I am wanting verifcation of your claims. Your provided a dictionary I cannot read and what I can does not support you.

Type a word, phrase or short sentence in Hebrew or English

Hebrew not Aramaic:shrug: not what I asked. I do know the definition in English for cousin.
We can have a nice discussion. I am finding your posts insulting. Please get away from making comments like

totally concocted Aramaic expression

. Don’t make judgmentat statement. It will help me not respond in kind. I am sure glad of computer glitches since a long reply disappeared. I know how bad you want to use such prhrase it feels so good but it is not good for us. Thank you.

One more question for you. If the Hebrew had words to express other relationships, why aren’t they used? We have Lot being described as brother and we know he was a nephew. We also can identify other parents for some of the “brothers” listed so why are they called brothers when they had other parents?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Who is the “we”.
I didn’t notice at first the dictionary comment because of the non-sense it returned

But they say meaning cousin not that it is a word for cousin. I can say the son of my uncle that means nephew but it isn’t the words I used. The words I used to mean nephew is a circumlocution . You have not provided any substantiation that the words you claim to be cousin are nothing more than a circumlocution.
I wanted to address a misunderstanding that you have

Sokoloff is the he that I refer too. Each verse that he names is not at all equivalent to saying cousin it is equivalent to saying the son of my uncle. I never flipped back to Hebrew. I was answering your linked dictionary that referred to the Hebrew. I have asked that you provide a word that means cousin and that I can verify. You provide a word that I cannot find independent of your statement.

1. You misunderstand if you think I am wanting a source from today. I am wanting verifcation of your claims. Your provided a dictionary I cannot read and what I can does not support you.

Hebrew not Aramaic:shrug: not what I asked. I do know the definition in English for cousin.
We can have a nice discussion. I am finding your posts insulting. Please get away from making comments like. Don’t make judgmentat statement. It will help me not respond in kind. I am sure glad of computer glitches since a long reply disappeared. I know how bad you want to use such prhrase it feels so good but it is not good for us. Thank you.

One more question for you. If the Hebrew had words to express other relationships, why aren’t they used? We have Lot being described as brother and we know he was a nephew. We also can identify other parents for some of the “brothers” listed so why are they called brothers when they had other parents?

I’m sorry but I couldn’t really make heads or tails out of most of the above. I’m sorry you find my posts insulting or if I have offended you. Jimmy Akin’s Aramaic expression is indeed concocted (a word which doesn’t even necessarily have a negative connotation) but of course this wasn’t directed to you but to his faulty work.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I will restate: using a bound form combining family relationships (daughter-uncle; son-uncle) is the usual way of referring to cousins in Semitic languages. It was that way in the Bible; it is that way today. It is not a circumlocution, and even if it were, Jimmy Akin’s argument is based solely on the assertion that the expressions (circumlocutions or not) are “too much work.” These are not “too much work.”

You keep bringing in Hebrew parallels (the text from Leviticus and the last paragraph of the quote right above here where you speak about nephews) but you keep insisting that I can’t refer to Hebrew; that’s not going to be the basis for a fair, “good discussion” is it?

The dictionary that I linked to is Aramaic, not Hebrew; I’m sorry you can’t read it. I provided links, I transliterated the words for you, I provided parallel expressions from the Hebrew Bible and from the Peshitta. I tried my best to explain how Jimmy Akin’s argument is logically faulty. I’m not sure what there is left for me to do here.

 

[adrift]

I’m sorry but I couldn’t really make heads or tails out of most of the above. I’m sorry you find my posts insulting or if I have offended you. Jimmy Akin’s Aramaic expression is indeed concocted (a word which doesn’t even necessarily have a negative connotation) but of course this wasn’t directed to you but to his faulty work

No it wasn’t directed at me. You say it is not true but I say the same about your word.
I am sorry you didn’t understand what I wrote.

I’ve mentioned this before, but I will restate: using a bound form combining family relationships (daughter-uncle; son-uncle) is the usual way of referring to cousins in Semitic languages. It was that way in the Bible; it is that way today. It is not a circumlocution, and even if it were, Jimmy Akin’s argument is based solely on the assertion that the expressions (circumlocutions or not) are “too much work.” These are not “too much work.”

Explain why it is not circumlocution. I would find it easier to say brother or brethren than to say the son of my uncle. If you don’t well your entitled to your opinion,

You keep bringing in Hebrew parallels (the text from Leviticus and the last paragraph of the quote right above here where you speak about nephews) but you keep insisting that I can’t refer to Hebrew; that’s not going to be the basis for a fair, “good discussion” is it?

You have a point but then again your source uses it.

The dictionary that I linked to is Aramaic, not Hebrew; I’m sorry you can’t read it. I provided links, I transliterated the words for you, I provided parallel expressions from the Hebrew Bible and from the Peshitta. I tried my best to explain how Jimmy Akin’s argument is logically faulty. I’m not sure what there is left for me to do here.

You provided but you didn’t use a source that I can verify. Your source for instance, uses on page 97 and 99 the same verse from Lev 25:49 but do not show the same word. I wish I could copy and paste but the web site doesn’t allow it. So provide me a word that I can verify. All the words you have used cannot be. If you want to use the correrct writing please do. In that way, I will be able to verify it.
You never answered who is the “We”?

 

[adrift]

bar dadan
bar dod
bar haviv
bar et dav
barat dod

I ran these through the Dictionary you provided. I found only bar dod used in Lev 21:7

7 They shall not take a woman that is a harlot, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God.

Desecrated woman is what it has by it. I take it that is a harlot?

 

[adrift]

We also can identify other parents for some of the “brothers” listed so why are they called brothers of Jesus when they had other parents?

It was just a slip when I said Hebrew I meant Aramaic.