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Ed_Rand
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If Muslims believe Paul’s letter to the Galations is a lie, it should not matter to you and I. Why are you still arguing about the curse when our scriptures say that God has cursed his own before?
“All who rely on observing the law are under a curse”–same spot in Galatians. Have you read it yet? God gave the Israelites the Law and it was a curse. I can’t believe you couldn’t concede that point after I showed you you were wrong according to our own scriptures!!!
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morning_star777
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ya brother inJESUS i know that hamba2han didn’t edit quran and giving the correct reference.hope now ed will guess.but mr.ed why you are ignoring my reference (about inheritance law,trinity,jews son god,and christians took their priest as god?quran claims all of those error.so can god make error?
).did you upset or scared that this references will defeat you?
).did you upset or scared that this references will defeat you?
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inJESUS
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traillius
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In the Bible, not sure of book, chapter or verse, it says to test the spirits, And if one denies that the CHRIST has come in the flesh, it is not of God. If Muslims deny that Jesus is the Christ, then by the bible they are not of God. God would not contradict himself. Nor would God suddenly change his mind about something so important as whether someone or something belongs to him. ergo. IF quran contradicts the Bible, then since the bible is first, the quran is not the fullness of truth.
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inJESUS
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Regarding Galatians Ed, i think you must start reading Paul again. Surely he did not say God sent the Law to curse people…oh my…
So the law is HOLY, and the commandment is HOLY and RIGHTEOUS and GOOD.** Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means!** It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is SPIRITUAL, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin." Romans 7:7-14
So the law is HOLY, and the commandment is HOLY and RIGHTEOUS and GOOD.** Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means!** It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is SPIRITUAL, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin." Romans 7:7-14
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inJESUS
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Ed_Rand
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This, and the verses you quoted before it are certainly convicting. But what about all the other verses that separate Christians into believers and unbelievers?
“Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and Sebeans and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good–they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.” Sura 5:69
"Those who follow the Messenger, the illiterate Prophet whom they find written about with them in the Torah and the Gospel, he commands what is right and forbids what is evil. He allows them the good things and forbids for them disdainful things. He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the fetters that were upon them. So those who believe in him, honor him, help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful." [al-Araf 7:157]
This applies to me.
"Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [ali-Imran 3:85]
Doesn’t Islam teach that Abraham was a Muslim and followed the ways of Islam?
“O Followers of the Book! why do you dispute about Ibrahim, when the Taurat(Torah) and the Injeel(Gospel) were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand?”–Sura 3:65.
Through faith in what God has taught me I am a child of Abraham. I am a Christian. I submit. I am a Muslim. May Jesus Christ set me straight on the Last Day.
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inJESUS
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This, and the verses you quoted before it are certainly convicting.
Allow me to answer until Hamba2han responds and correct me if am wrong.
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morning_star777
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strange mr.ed,if some verses of quran address christians&jews as non believers and if another verses say the different then isn’t contradictory?it proves that quran has been written by an illiterate man not the word of god.because god is neither a mental patient nor an illiterate person.and actually which verses claim that christians aren’t non believer and they will go to heaven?and hamba2han is a muslim.he is not a christian like me.
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Kristine1957
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check out this website it is pretty interesting!sourceflix.com
It has some things about the Jews and the priesthood.
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Ed_Rand
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This is insane… You seem really intelligent and it appears you have a Bible in front of you. “Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.”–Galatians 3:10. The Law is a curse for us because only Jesus could fulfill it entirely. “For whoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to all of it.”–James 2:10 It is a curse because it taught us of sin and therefore our sinful flesh is in constant combat with the spirit of the Law (read all of Romans 7 again).
So the Law is righteous and Good but is a curse because of our sinful flesh. And we owe everything to Jesus because “Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us”–Galatians 3:13 “For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death”–Romans 8:2
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hamba2han
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"Then we inspired you (O Muhammad) to follow the religion of Abraham, monotheism; never was he an idol-worshiper." [al-Qur’an, 16:123]
There is only One God who created one race of human beings, and communicated to them one message: submission to the will of God—known in Arabic as Islam. That message was conveyed to the first human beings on this earth, and reaffirmed by all of the prophets of God who came after them, down through the ages.
In the years after they were sent by God to their respective people, the Message that the Prophets taught gradually became lost and eventually the people went back to wrong and abhorrent practices such as idol-worship and associating partners with their Creator.
It is therefore no surprise then that at the time of Muhammad (pbuh), the pagan Arabs were worshiping idols in the Kaa’ba, despite them being the likely descendants of Abraham (pbuh) through his son, Ishmael (pbuh).
The essence of the message of Islam is that humankind should worship only One God by obeying His commandments, and should avoid worshiping God’s creation in any way, shape or form.
Jesus Christ, born of the Virgin Mary, performed miracles and invited the Israelites to the same message of submission (Islam), as did all of the prophets who preceded him. He was not God, nor was he the ‘Son of God’, but was the Messiah, an illustrious prophet of God. Jesus did not invite people to worship himself; rather, he called them to worship God, and he himself worshiped God. He confirmed the laws of the Torah which Prophet Moses taught; he lived by them, and instructed his disciples to follow them to the finest detail. Before his departure, he informed his followers of the last prophet, Muhammad of Arabia (pbuh), who would come after him, and instructed them to observe his teachings.
In the generations after Jesus’ departure from this world, his teachings were distorted and he was elevated to the status of God. Six centuries later, with the coming of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the truth about Jesus Christ was finally retold and preserved eternally in the last book of divine revelation, the Qur’an. Furthermore, the laws of Moses, which Jesus followed, were revived in their pure and unadulterated form, and implemented in the divinely prescribed way of life known as Islam.
Consequently, the reality of the prophets, their uniform message, and the way of life which they followed, can only be found preserved in the religion of Islam, the only religion prescribed by God for man. Furthermore, only Muslims today actually follow Jesus and his true teachings. Their way of life is much more in tune with the way of life of Jesus than any of the modern day “Christians”. Love and respect of Jesus Christ is an article of faith in Islam. Allah stressed the importance of belief in Jesus in numerous places in the Qur’an. For example, in Chapter an-Nisaa (4):159, He said:
} وَ إِنْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا {
“And all of the people of the scripture must believe in him [Jesus] before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them,”
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Angelos
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NOPE. What you fail to see is that for the Koran there is only ONE religion, which is Islam:
Surah 3:19 Lo! religion with Allah (is) the Surrender (to His Will and Guidance). Those who (formerly) received the Scripture differed only after knowledge came unto them, through transgression among themselves.
Surah 3:85. And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
More, Jesus asserts that NOT ALL Christians will enter the Kingdom of God whereas Mohammad’s scribes say WHOEVER calls Jesus Lord will be a loser in the Hereafter. These are apparently different teachings that cannot be reconciled.
This is completely irrelevant to our discussion and has a couple of logical fallacies. First, there were NOT many Christian denominations in Mohammad’s period. Second, the number of denominations or of insincere believers would not allow one to condemn the WHOLE community of Christians. Third, Islam has many sects and insincere believers too, but the Koran never refers to such Muslims? Why do you think only non-Muslims are targeted in Mohammad’s Bible?
So you mean that Allah commands Muslims to punish non-Muslims because of their reluctance to turn to Islam, but this punishment is at the same time compatible with your assertion that not all non-Muslims are condemned to Hell? Why the commandment to punish ALL of them then? Why do you think the Koran verse stipulates all non-Muslims turn to Islam so as not to be humiliated by Muslims?
Surah 9:31. **They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. **There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!This claim has not been proven by anyone on this thread.
Surah 5:72. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.
Surah 9:33. He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.
How Mohammad’s scripture can create a nation (Arabs) that existed before him is a mystery to me!
Show me the verse in the Old Testament where God promises to create a RELIGIOUS NATION from Ishmael. There is no such promise, which proves my point that God’s promise to Abraham about Ishmael was essentially secular.
Above all, you cannot simply equate Arabs with Muslims, for not all Arabs are Muslims as well as not all Muslims are Arabs. You are confusing the Islamic nation (Muslims) with Ishmael’s physical descendants (Arabs).
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Angelos
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Sorry, but now I suspect that you are a Christian that is well-versed in the New Testament!
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Ed_Rand
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Thank you for that at least!!!
I’d just like to say that this has been the most interesting discussion I’ve ever had in my life and I really appreciate those of you who are actively participating.
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Angelos
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Do not think that I am judging or cursing youThank you for that at least!!!
I’d just like to say that this has been the most interesting discussion I’ve ever had in my life and I really appreciate those of you who are actively participating.
I have enjoyed this thread so far too
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Ed_Rand
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This is really a helpful post and I’d like to break it down bit by bit, but I’m getting bogged down here with issues I want to address.
So did Jesus not teach that we are to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us and to turn our cheek when attacked as I believe is taught in all 4 Gospels? Was this a corruption? If so, it was a massive one… Muslims are commanded to fight throughout the Qur’an, correct?
Totally agree.
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Ed_Rand
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Angelo, I could contest a lot of what you said in that post, but it’s the following part about Ishmael and God’s promise that I’d like to come to some conclusions about. I was hoping my points on this topic were not going to be lost.
God’s promise to Abraham:
“I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you”–Genesis 12:2-3
Because of Abraham’s lack of faith he had a son through his slave woman Hagar and he was named Ishmael (means God hears). God promised Hagar: “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numuerous to count.”
When Ishmael was 14 years old, his half-brother Isaac was born. Through no fault of his own, he and his mother were cast into the desert by Abraham. He tells Abraham: “As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is you offspring”–Genesis 21:13 When Ishmael is dying out in the desert, God hears his cry and says to Hagar: “Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.”–Genesis 21:18 Then we learn that “God was with the boy as he grew up.”–Genesis 21:20
Finally, we learn from Genesis 25:18 that his descendants settled on the western half of the Arabian peninsula and “they lived in hostility toward all their brothers”.
What great nation came from this area?
God’s promise to Abraham:
“I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you”–Genesis 12:2-3
Because of Abraham’s lack of faith he had a son through his slave woman Hagar and he was named Ishmael (means God hears). God promised Hagar: “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numuerous to count.”
When Ishmael was 14 years old, his half-brother Isaac was born. Through no fault of his own, he and his mother were cast into the desert by Abraham. He tells Abraham: “As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is you offspring”–Genesis 21:13 When Ishmael is dying out in the desert, God hears his cry and says to Hagar: “Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.”–Genesis 21:18 Then we learn that “God was with the boy as he grew up.”–Genesis 21:20
Finally, we learn from Genesis 25:18 that his descendants settled on the western half of the Arabian peninsula and “they lived in hostility toward all their brothers”.
What great nation came from this area?
How Mohammad’s scripture can create a nation (Arabs) that existed before him is a mystery to me!
Arabs are a nation? Arabs were a loosely connected group of warring tribes when Muhammad came on the scene. Has there been any great nation from that area since? Saudi Arabia perhaps…
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swariffin
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Dear Ed,
What is the meaning of “law” that was mentioned by Paul in this case? Do you think it was the Thorah?. Now, do you know a book called Talmud?
OK. Let us go back to Jesus when he “disobeyed” the Sabath, in which Jesus cured the sicks during Sabath. In Sabath, no one was allowed to work, and curing was considered as working. Jesus also claimed that He is “the Lord of Sabath”. Later on, Jesus said that “not a single iota of Thorah would be erased”. Do you believe that Jesus was being inconsistent? No way, Ed. After the fall of Israel to the Babylon, they would like to come back to what the Thorah said. But, the Thorah was written hundreds of years prior to their lifetime. And, lifetimes separated by hundreds of years were different. This was the job of the Pharasee, who derived new laws from the Thorah to be reasonable to their current way of living. Those laws were recorded in the book called Talmud.
So much that the Pharasee derived the laws that the new laws be so “burdensome” to the Jews. This was the kind of laws critized by both Jesus and Paul.
Think about it. Were there any law including the Thorah during Abraham time? There was none. That was why Paul made this analogy in his letter to the Romans. But, did it mean that there was no law at all? There was. That is what the meaning that human was created under the image of God. Without any written law, there was already a reluctance of human to kill others, or eat other human (except in remote jungle of Borneo or the islands of Pacific, even so, such practice is hardly existed in this modern lifetime). So, the Thorah was the reflection of what was already unwritten. The Pharasee later on derived the Thorah from a living law into a dead law written in Talmud. Later on, Jesus bring this law back into living and loving law.
Dear Ed, you cannot take a verse in Paul’s letter and make an interpretation out of it. You have to read the entire letter of even other letters of Paul, in order to understand him. Remember, even Peter in his letter even said that Paul’s letters were difficult to be understood. That was normal. Paul was highly educated, compared to Peter, who was an ex-fisherman.
At the end, Ed. Why do you conclude that the way the Islamic people way of life closer to the way of life of Jesus? I must admit that modern westerners who are the majority of Christianity live in a lifestyle far different that what Jesus has commanded. But, all of us know that Christianity does not lie in the modern lifestyle of the westerners. Lifestyle if lifestyle, Faith is faith. If one cannot see the true teaching of Jesus in the lifestyle of the westerners, one cannot blame Christianity itself.
The way that the Muslims pray, is highly respectable and undeniable. I lived closed to a mosque. And sometimes when they woke me up for their morning prayer, I step down from the bed, and recite my own prayer. Too bad, not all the time I do that. For this kind of way of life, I agree with you that this way of life is indeed closer to the way of life a la Jesus.
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