Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[Ed_Rand]

Dear Ed,

What is the meaning of “law” that was mentioned by Paul in this case? Do you think it was the Thorah?. Now, do you know a book called Talmud?

OK. Let us go back to Jesus when he “disobeyed” the Sabath, in which Jesus cured the sicks during Sabath. In Sabath, no one was allowed to work, and curing was considered as working. Jesus also claimed that He is “the Lord of Sabath”. Later on, Jesus said that “not a single iota of Thorah would be erased”. Do you believe that Jesus was being inconsistent? No way, Ed. After the fall of Israel to the Babylon, they would like to come back to what the Thorah said. But, the Thorah was written hundreds of years prior to their lifetime. And, lifetimes separated by hundreds of years were different. This was the job of the Pharasee, who derived new laws from the Thorah to be reasonable to their current way of living. Those laws were recorded in the book called Talmud.
So much that the Pharasee derived the laws that the new laws be so “burdensome” to the Jews. This was the kind of laws critized by both Jesus and Paul.

Think about it. Were there any law including the Thorah during Abraham time? There was none. That was why Paul made this analogy in his letter to the Romans. But, did it mean that there was no law at all? There was. That is what the meaning that human was created under the image of God. Without any written law, there was already a reluctance of human to kill others, or eat other human (except in remote jungle of Borneo or the islands of Pacific). So, the Thorah was the reflection of what was already unwritten. The Pharasee later on derived the Thorah from a living law into a dead law written in Talmud. Later on, Jesus bring this law back into living and loving law.

Dear Ed, you cannot take a verse in Paul’s letter and make an interpretation out of it. You have to read the entire letter of even other letters of Paul, in order to understand him. Remember, even Peter in his letter even said that Paul’s letters were difficult to be understood. That was normal. Paul was highly educated, compared to Peter, who was an ex-fisherman.

You are wrong friend. Paul quotes the Torah when he’s explaining this. “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”–Galatians 3:10 and Deuteronomy 27:26.

 

[swariffin]

You are wrong friend. Paul quotes the Torah when he’s explaining this. “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”–Galatians 3:10 and Deuteronomy 27:26.

Dear Ed,

Then why did Paul said in Rome 3:20 “God does not accept people simply because they obey the law.”

 

[Angelos]

Angelo, I could contest a lot of what you said in that post, but it’s the following part about Ishmael and God’s promise that I’d like to come to some conclusions about. I was hoping my points on this topic were not going to be lost.

God’s promise to Abraham:

“I will make you into a great nation
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you”–Genesis 12:2-3

Because of Abraham’s lack of faith he had a son through his slave woman Hagar and he was named Ishmael (means God hears). God promised Hagar: “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numuerous to count.”

When Ishmael was 14 years old, his half-brother Isaac was born. Through no fault of his own, he and his mother were cast into the desert by Abraham. He tells Abraham: “As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a great nation of him also, since he too is you offspring”–Genesis 21:13 When Ishmael is dying out in the desert, God hears his cry and says to Hagar: “Arise, lift up the boy and hold him by the hand; for I will make of him a great nation.”–Genesis 21:18 Then we learn that “God was with the boy as he grew up.”–Genesis 21:20

Finally, we learn from Genesis 25:18 that his descendants settled on the western half of the Arabian peninsula and “they lived in hostility toward all their brothers”.

What great nation came from this area?

That great nation was the descendants of Ishmael: Ishmaelites in the Bible! According to your reasoning, God did not fulfill His promise (to make Ishmael into a great nation) until Islam’s birth, which is by no means associated with Ishmael in the Torah. As Isaac became the father of Israel, so did Ishmael of the Arabs. Nothing more, nothing less.

Arabs are a nation? Arabs were a loosely connected group of warring tribes when Muhammad came on the scene. Has there been any great nation from that area since? Saudi Arabia perhaps…

The historic fact that Arabs lived as separate tribes and lacked national unity prior to Mohammad can never efface the other historic fact that Arabs existed prior to Mohammad. You should always keep in mind that God in the Torah only promised to make Ishmael into a great nation (from one man into a nation), but was never concerned with the national unity of Ishmael’s descendants. More, God never promised that He would work different tribes into one single nation. If your reasoning is true, we must also conclude that God’s promise to Abraham about Isaac’s descendants failed when Israel lost national unity after Solomon’s reign, which is a faulty presumption.

Again, how can God’s promise be secular?

Some of God’s promises are essentially secular in that they only pertain to the birth of a nation from a single ancestor. God re-created the world population after the flood through three of Noah’s sons. Their progeny turned into many great nations without the need of a prophet or scripture.

I think the reason that this topic has not been thoroughly discussed here is because it is evident that our own scriptures show that God willed Muhammad, Islam, the Qur’an and everything else. Once we are honest with ourselves, we will admit that these notions that Muslim’s are following a religion of Satan are absurd. In the end, why were Ishmael and Islam concieved? because of lack of faith on the part of God’s chosen.

Ishmael was not a Muslim, and he definitely knew nothing about Islam, which became an innovated ideology contradicting our scripture in the 7th century!

A Christian believer can never say that God willed Mohammad and his Koran because this is equal to saying that God willed the humiliation of Jesus’ followers and agreed that the advent of Islam was crucial. However, the Gospel makes one thing clear: Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. He is the one through whom came grace and truth! Therefore, Jesus is enough for us, we do not need a new scripture or messenger. If you disagree, you are free to embrace Islam and walk in the footsteps of Mohammad by denying essential Christian tenets (Trinity, Crucifixion, Salvation in Christ)

 

[Ed_Rand]

Dear Ed,

Then why did Paul said in Rome 3:20 “God does not accept people simply because they obey the law.”

It says “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin” God does not want us to merely follow the law. We are justified by faith, like our father Abraham.

 

[inJESUS]

So the Law is righteous and Good but is a curse because of our sinful flesh. And we owe everything to Jesus because “Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us”–Galatians 3:13 “For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed you from the law of sin and death”–Romans 8:2

so we agree

 

[Ed_Rand]

That great nation was the descendants of Ishmael: Ishmaelites in the Bible! According to your reasoning, God did not fulfill His promise (to make Ishmael into a great nation) until Islam’s birth, which is by no means associated with Ishmael in the Torah. As Isaac became the father of Israel, so did Ishmael of the Arabs. Nothing more, nothing less.

The Ishmaelites of the Bible were the fulfillment of God’s promise? Because Ishmael was able to impregnate some women and procreate that means the promise is fulfilled? Not likely friend. God’s promise to Abraham and to Hagar is not about a few tribes. It is about great nations that withstand the test of time. Why would Islam be in the Torah? Was Christianity in the Torah? Wasn’t God’s promise to Abraham fullfilled through Jesus?

The historic fact that Arabs lived as separate tribes and lacked national unity prior to Mohammad can never efface the other historic fact that Arabs existed prior to Mohammad.

Were they a great nation? Also, why would Ishmael’s story be so
important in the Bible if his only significance to us is that he may be the father of people calling themselves Arabs? Why all this prophecy and promise over such a trivial matter?

“You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”

You should always keep in mind that God in the Torah only promised to make Ishmael into a great nation (from one man into a nation), but was never concerned with the national unity of Ishmael’s descendants.

I don’t think that sentence makes any sense.

If your reasoning is true, we must also conclude that God’s promise to Abraham about Isaac’s descendants failed when Israel lost national unity after Solomon’s reign, which is a faulty presumption.

Wrong. God’s promise to Abraham concerning Isaac came true in Christ Jesus and you and I are part of the new Israel. God was speaking about great, lasting nations of BELIEVERS. “But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants”–Romans 9:6-7

A Christian believer can never say that God willed Mohammad and his Koran because this is equal to saying that God willed the humiliation of Jesus’ followers and agreed that the advent of Islam was crucial.

As believers in one God who created the heavens and the earth, all things seen and unseen, we must believe that God wills all things. Nothing can go contrary to His plans.

However, the Gospel makes one thing clear: Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. He is the one through whom came grace and truth! Therefore, Jesus is enough for us, we do not need a new scripture or messenger.

Agreed.

 

[Angelos]

The Ishmaelites of the Bible were the fulfillment of God’s promise? Because Ishmael was able to impregnate some women and procreate that means the promise is fulfilled? Not likely friend. God’s promise to Abraham and to Hagar is not about a few tribes. It is about great nations that withstand the test of time. Why would Islam be in the Torah? Was Christianity in the Torah? Wasn’t God’s promise to Abraham fullfilled through Jesus?

Answer my simple questions: Why does God NOT talk of Ishmael’s descendents later in the Torah? Why does God NOT extend His promise to the national unity and welfare of Ishmael’s progeny? Why did God’s focus switch from Ishmael to Isaac? Why did God NOT let Ishmael remain in the same house as Isaac and be an heir? Why did God say that He would make His covenant with Isaac, but NOT with Ishmael?

More, God does NOT promise that He will make Ishmael into great nationS, but to A great nation (singular!). God makes that promise only to comfort Abraham, who is sad and preoccupied that Ishmael will not be able to survive the banishment! Ishmael will survive and be the father of a great nation like Isaac even though God will choose only ISAAC for His covenant.

Were they a great nation? Also, why would Ishmael’s story be so
important in the Bible if his only significance to us is that he may be the father of people calling themselves Arabs? Why all this prophecy and promise over such a trivial matter?

“You are now with child
and you will have a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward all his brothers.”

God made this for Abraham alone! He knew that Abraham would be preoccupied about his son, who would leave him and go to the desert. God promised to protect Ishmael and make him the father of a nation in order to comfort Abraham!

I don’t think that sentence makes any sense.

I could guess it would make no sense to you as a sentence debunking your hypothesis.

Wrong. God’s promise to Abraham concerning Isaac came true in Christ Jesus and you and I are part of the new Israel. God was speaking about great, lasting nations of BELIEVERS. “But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants”–Romans 9:6-7

Where does Paul say something similar about Ishmael? Further, this quote does not refute that God’ promise to make Isaac into a great nation came true centuries before Christ’s birth!

As believers in one God who created the heavens and the earth, all things seen and unseen, we must believe that God wills all things. Nothing can go contrary to His plans.

NOPE! You are mistaking whatever God allows for whatever He wishes. What He allows to happen is NOT always what He wishes.

There is the church of Satan as well as many satanic cults practicing witchcraft. Do you really think God wills that some people worship Satan?

 

[inJESUS]

God made this for Abraham alone! He knew that Abraham would be preoccupied about his son, who would leave him and go to the desert. God promised to protect Ishmael and make him the father of a nation in order to comfort Abraham!

 

[Angelos]

indeed for God says, “as for Ishmael, **i have heard you **Abraham”

Many thanks for this helpful quotation

 

[morning_star777]

QURAN is full of historical&mathematical error.so its can’t be word of god,never ever.in this thread&in other threads we gave many references from quran&hadith.so i am not going to repeat those verses.but those verses of quran make us sure that quran isn’t the word of god.quran has been written by an illiterate man muhammed.if still any christian(or other ppl)want to belive that quran is also god’s word like bible then its their problem.

 

[Valke2]

Because of Abraham’s lack of faith he had a son through his slave woman Hagar and he was named Ishmael (means God hears). God promised Hagar: “I will so increase your descendants that they will be too numuerous to count.”

If I recall correctly, God specificly told Abraham to listen to Sara. There’s nothing in the story to suggest that Abraham doubted God’s word and therefore had a child through Hagar. Moreover, God’s promise initially does not say Abraham will have children with Sarah. Only that he will have children, correct?

 

[inJESUS]

If I recall correctly, God specificly told Abraham to listen to Sara.

if i recall correctly, this was when Sarah asked Hagar to leave…not when Sarah asked Abraham to sleep with her maid…

There’s nothing in the story to suggest that Abraham doubted God’s word and therefore had a child through Hagar.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Answer my simple questions: Why does God NOT talk of Ishmael’s descendents later in the Torah?

God told Abraham “it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” The bible is the story of Israel, from this point, all the way through to the end.

Why does God NOT extend His promise to the national unity and welfare of Ishmael’s progeny?

 

[Ed_Rand]

If I recall correctly, God specificly told Abraham to listen to Sara.

What you are recalling is when He told Abraham to listen to Sara regarding throwing Hagar and Ishmael out into the desert.

There’s nothing in the story to suggest that Abraham doubted God’s word and therefore had a child through Hagar.

Wrong friend. This is exactly the story. Remember that, after Ishmael was born, God came and told Abraham that Sarah will produce offspring, he laughed. Sarah also laughed at this prospect. Abraham actually said, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!” Genesis 17:18.

Moreover, God’s promise initially does not say Abraham will have children with Sarah. Only that he will have children, correct.

correct. I see your point. But it is clear that they waited a long time before resorting to use Hagar to fulfill the promise (somewhere around 10 years). I would say this shows a slow loss of faith. When God first made him that promise, who do you think Abraham thought would fulfill it but Sarah? However, the part when Abraham and Sarah both laugh at the Lord’s promise later on is a better example of their lack of faith. Good point though. I was a little overconfident on that point.

 

[Ed_Rand]

why did Sarah get pregnant if the promise was about any woman?

you miss his/her point. he/she was calling me out on the fact that I stated bluntly that Ishmael was born of Abraham and Sarah’s lack of faith. I think it still stands though.

 

[Ed_Rand]

side note: We have drifted completely off topic on this thread for some time now and yet have been given no warning by the moderators. On the more political forums, as soon as an argument gets a bit heated about something, the moderators step in immediatly and sometimes delete the thread. This is a shame.

Example: I was contributing on another thread that was titled “Is there a military solution to Terror” and after a bit, we got stuck on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. after 1 or 2 pages of posts on this specific conflict, the moderater stepped in and warned us to get back on topic, and if we wanted to discuss the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, we would have to start all over again in a new thread. He basically crushed the discussion that we were having. We were much more on topic in that thread than we are in this one. I find that troubling. Sometimes, digressions are more important than the original point. I hope I don’t bring down their wrath!!! Moderators! Please, pretty please, dont erase this thread!

 

[inJESUS]

you miss his/her point. he/she was calling me out on the fact that I stated bluntly that Ishmael was born of Abraham and Sarah’s lack of faith. I think it still stands though.

actually i agree with you that’s why i asked, if the promise was only to Abraham (regardless of Sarah), why did Sarah the barren get pregnant?

 

[Ed_Rand]

Wow, I just checked on another thread that I’m posting on. I said the following under the thread titled “Religion of Peace? Please explain”. Also, before I started posting, the majority of the thread was about how hateful Muslims are and about how the majority of killings in the world are done by Muslims, etc. etc.

Ed Rand–We could debate history for quite a while. But there is an argument among historians about whether the facts of history can teach us morality and thus show us a better way. I say no. It is our religion that teaches us right and wrong. So lets get down to the nitty-gritty…

First off, what did you intend these verses to prove? That it is okay to participate in aggressive war according to the Gospel?

Originally Posted by Arbitro360
1 Corinthians 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul is telling a church to kick out a man who was having relations with his mother. I know it well. To me, it is one of the most optimistic verses in the New Testament. It also seems to confirm purgatory. In no way does it relate to the cruel things that you and others have said on this thread.

2 Timothy 3:8

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

Your point?

Hebrews 4:12

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This verse is comparing the Word to a sword. You have been advocating the sword in opposition to what has been commanded you in the Word.

Not all of us are destined for sainthood or martyrdom. Some of us have families, churches and communities that depend on us. We don’t have the luxury of abandoning our responsibilities.

Your first responsibility is to God, friend. And if you are teaching your family and friends the same that you have been trying to teach on this thread, then you are neglecting your responsibility to Him. Trust me, not everyone in your church and community feels like you do. The sad fact is that they are probably afraid to speak the Truth because your side is the gov. side, and there is a lot of intimidation in this country.

Amos 9:2

2 “ Though they dig into hell,
From there My hand shall take them;
Though they climb up to heaven,
From there I will bring them down;

Good verse. Although again, I fail to see your point. Unless you are claiming that the US military is the hand of God…

And no, I don’t accept being a “Bad Christian” lightly. But we are all sinners. And the worst of us are pious hypocrites also.

Yes, we are all sinners. I do despicable, ungodly things sometimes. But I can point to them and correct them and I urge others against them. “If that makes me a bad Christian, then so be it” were your words. If you accept that your ideals are decidedly un-Christian, why would you not repent and instead try to teach others your folly?

Also, you do not know me so how can I be a hypocrite?

The Gospel is NOT a suicide pact

.

Show me where it teaches what you have taught on this thread.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for
righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because
of righteousness
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”

All this hatred for Islam and Muslims, yet your views are advocated throughout the Qur’an.

A Christian is fed to the lions, singing.
Rome is ruined.–Ed Rand----------------------end post.

And what is the next post I read after mine?

Off topic

Basically someone trying to kill discussion on this very important issue. Once again, Shameful.

 

[Ed_Rand]

actually i agree with you that’s why i asked, if the promise was only to Abraham (regardless of Sarah), why did Sarah the barren get pregnant?

His point was that God didn’t originally specify that it would be Sarah until after Ishmael was born.

 

[inJESUS]

Ed, i think your question has been answered. If you want to open another thread you are surely allowed until this thread is forgotten or closed by the mods.