Jesus' status in Islam and Judaism

[Ed_Rand]

Ed, i think your question has been answered. If you want to open another thread you are surely allowed until this thread is forgotten or closed by the mods.

What is your answer then? Do these verses in the OT point to Islam?

 

[Angelos]

God told Abraham “it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” The bible is the story of Israel, from this point, all the way through to the end.

What have you been disputing with me then? God singled Isaac out! Nothing significant about the promise given to Abraham about Ishmael!

He does. Read the relevant passages. His promise is basically the same concerning both sons. As Valke noted, the original promise was made to Abraham’s “decendants”. At that point, God intended that to mean Sarah’s progeny. But as they both grew older, they lost faith and decided to use Hagar to fulfill God’s promise.

However, Abraham and Sarah’s supposed lack of faith did not make God change His mind! Isaac’s miraculous birth was a necessary sign indicating God’s election. Ishmael was born naturally and could not stay in Abraham’s house after Isaac’s birth. It is clear in the Torah that God told Abraham He was going to choose Isaac for His covenant.

God chooses whom He wills.

YES! He willed to choose Isaac and did that. Neither Ishmael nor his descendants were the elected of God!

I was referring to both sons at that point. My view is that the two nations spoke of here are Christianity and Islam–two great, lasting, nations of believers.

Sorry, but you always forget that Islam is NOT the name of a nation! First, you try to associate Arabs with Ishmael, then associate Arabs with Muslims, finally conclude that Muslims are the great nation predicted in the Torah! You will hopefully agree with me the day you realize that Arabs did not become Ishmael’s descendants or the great nation with the help of Islam!

Wrong. Go back a bit. He originally makes that promise to Hagar

Who God speaks to first does not matter at all! Hagar is first addressed by God because she is the one to leave with the child and take care of him. Abraham is not going with them!

Wrong again. I suggest you read the whole story. God hears the cries of both Ishmael and Hagar who have been put in an awful situation through no fault of their own.

Nevertheless, God asks Abraham not to worry about the child because He promises to make him survive.

Genesis 21:9-13 And when Sara had seen the son of Agar, the Egyptian, playing with Isaac, her son, she said to Abraham: Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with my son Isaac. Abraham took this grievously for his son. And God said to him: **Let it not seem grievous to thee for the boy, and for thy bondwoman: in all that Sara hath said to thee, hearken to her voice: for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. **But I will make the son also of the bondwoman a great nation, because he is thy seed.

Apparently, God talks to Abraham to comfort him through the promise to protect the child and bring about a great nation from him.

Read Galatians 4:21-31. Interesting that with Islam, once again are people enslaved to a whole set of laws.

Nothing about Islam in Galatians.Muslims are not the only religious community that has a law.

Whoa! You need to refresh your New Testament theology and your understanding of History. The physical state of Israel was humiliated and obliterated many times before it was pretty much destroyed by the Romans. This would make God a liar. This promise came true with Christ Jesus, a light to the gentiles and all the world.

How can you claim that Isaac failed to become the father of a great nation (Israel) before Jesus’ birth?

The topic is now: there are verses in the Old Testament that, (to me) clearly point to Islam. If this is true, obviously God willed it.

The verses in the Torah obviously point to Ishmael’s progeny (physical descendants), NOT to the members of a religion that came to existence six centuries after Christ. God never says in the Torah that Ishmael’s descendants will become a great religious nation (community).

 

[inJESUS]

What is your answer then? Do these verses in the OT point to Islam?

regarding the Moderators on this sub-forum, i do not think they close an thread that goes off track as long as the original question has been answered and the OP goes on askin more questions.

regarding your question, no the OT do not point out to Islam in any shape or form. The OT is taking about blessing Abrahams’ descendants, not about creating religions …Arabs existed before Ishmael anyway, and Christian Arabs existed before Muhammad…not to add that the Quran is not from God to begin with, something i think you understood by now

 

[inJESUS]

His point was that God didn’t originally specify that it would be Sarah until after Ishmael was born.

yet God’s promise was before Hagar being introduced. So if God had in mind Hagar, then why did Sarah get pregnant later on, and why did God choose to fulfill His promise through Isaac? from all this, and from God’s fulfillment of the promise through Isaac, then His promise was to Sarah and Abraham. It was Sarah who thought she could fulfill God’s promise by asking Abraham to sleep with her maid, in other words, taking thing into her hands, yet God’s promise was finally fulfilled according to His time and Sarah ended up regretting.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Howdy, Ed.

I get what you were saying about being a Christian and a Muslim at the same time. Since according to the definition of Islam in the Qur’an (such that Abraham was a Muslim), Jesus Christ was a Muslim. So a true Christian would be the religion of Jesus, right? Which would be Islam.

And then there is the concept of the same deen (Islam) but a different law (Shari’ah) for different times.

You asked on page 7:

Is there a Muslim on this forum that will not admit that “turn your cheek” is infinitely more divine than “eye for an eye”? “Eye for an eye” is animal. “Turn your cheek and pray for your enemy” could only be divine.

What is divine is what God has revealed, right? And God did reveal “eye for an eye.” So I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s animal–that suggests that the children of Israel were animals. And even in a metaphorical or legal sense I don’t think that’s acceptable. So God revealed it, because it is man’s nature to want revenge, but also to serve as a deterrent to harming other people.

But you also have the teaching of Jesus Christ, to turn the other cheek. Inherent in this concept is forgiveness of others, and compassion for them. It is less focused on the legal aspect, and more on the spiritual.

But when the Qur’an addresses the subject, it combines the legal and the spiritual. Here is the verse, 5:45

We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

First of all, it describes the legal issue, the retribution. But then it equates forgiveness of others with forgiveness from God. So while in a legal sense, people will be held accountable for hurting others. This is the idea of the law–because if people aren’t held accountable, then criminals will take advantage, right? But then the higher, more spiritual concept is forgiveness. That is for the person who is wronged, but yet he forgives the other person (turning the other cheek) and does not seek retribution. And he is the one that gets the reward from God.

 

[ralphinal]

If Jesus’s teachings are compatible with Islam, why does he teach us to call God “Abba” or “Daddy”? Further, why does he say that we are no longer slaves, he calls us friends?

 

[Sister_Amy]

If Jesus’s teachings are compatible with Islam, why does he teach us to call God “Abba” or “Daddy”? Further, why does he say that we are no longer slaves, he calls us friends?

Honestly, I can only speculate as to the answer, if you want to hear my thoughts. But on the other hand, Muslims reject what parts of previous scripture disagree with the Qur’an. And then again… why do you assume these things would be incompatible with Islam?

So the only real way to answer that, is:

1. Maybe Jesus (as) didn’t teach those things
2. Maybe Jesus (as) taught them but they’ve been misinterpreted and exaggerated
3. Maybe Jesus (as) taught them for a reason that only God knows

Sometimes I think about how Jesus (as) had to approach the people who at that time had an extraordinarily legal perspective on religion. They were lacking in the spiritual connection with God.

In fact, one of the really great things about Christianity (from the perspective of Islam) is the emphasis on spirituality. You know this, I’m sure–many Christians will talk about having a “personal relationship” with God. Whereas some other religions have a concept of God that is very abstract, a God that does not keep a watchful eye over the world. So in this sense, Christianity has this strength of emphasizing a spiritual connection. And that is clear in the teachings of Jesus as well.

But from the Muslim point of view, Christianity has gone a little too far, and abandoned the law. Like you start with the Pharisees who are too extreme in the legal direction who forget spirituality… and then end up with some people today with no law who are too extreme in the emotional/spiritual direction and forget the law.

So Islam is this middle ground–incorporating both concepts simultaneously. This is what is meant by a middle path, as Islam views itself.

 

[hamba2han]

Do Christians believe that God would call a secular nation to be a “great nation” in the Bible?

Let us look at these verses from the NIV Bible:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

**“What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?” **( Deuteronomy 4:7-8)

In the above verses, we first see a clear promise from GOD Almighty that He will make a “great nation” from Ishmael’s descendants. We then see the definition of “great nation” as being a nation that directly receives a Law from GOD Almighty.

Since “great nation” proves that the people have the Law of GOD Almighty, and since the descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) were promised to become a “great nation” in the Old Testament, then this clearly and irrefutably makes the Noble Quran as the Law of the LORD in the Old Testament

 

[ralphinal]

Honestly, I can only speculate as to the answer, if you want to hear my thoughts. But on the other hand, Muslims reject what parts of previous scripture disagree with the Qur’an. And then again… why do you assume these things would be incompatible with Islam?

Not so much incompatible, but not there. Incompatable is only a good word if you say that I cannot see myself as a child of God or call him Father, which some Muslims do. I should have used a different word. If Jesus was prophet, and God told both he and Muhammed what to say, then why is Father not one of the 99 names? Why did we go from Father/Child back to slave/master? There is a hole in the logic, to me at least. The easy answer is to reject what disagrees with the Koran. The hard part is to see if, in fact, they can fit together.

So the only real way to answer that, is:

1. Maybe Jesus (as) didn’t teach those things
2. Maybe Jesus (as) taught them but they’ve been misinterpreted and exaggerated
3. Maybe Jesus (as) taught them for a reason that only God knows

There are other reasons, I would say. It is possible that for the audience that Muhammed had, the Father/Child imagry was not strong enough. It is also possible that the basic understanding of God that the Jews had is much closer to Christianity than the Arabians had to Islam. This would make, in my mind, Islam a first step that should lead people from idolatry to the One True God.

Sometimes I think about how Jesus (as) had to approach the people who at that time had an extraordinarily legal perspective on religion. They were lacking in the spiritual connection with God.

This is not a bad view from what I can tell. I would say that there were extremely spiritual Jews, but there were also very legalistic ones. It is a danger of a faith based on what you do not so much on what you beleive.

In fact, one of the really great things about Christianity (from the perspective of Islam) is the emphasis on spirituality. You know this, I’m sure–many Christians will talk about having a “personal relationship” with God. Whereas some other religions have a concept of God that is very abstract, a God that does not keep a watchful eye over the world. So in this sense, Christianity has this strength of emphasizing a spiritual connection. And that is clear in the teachings of Jesus as well.

Agreed.

But from the Muslim point of view, Christianity has gone a little too far, and abandoned the law. Like you start with the Pharisees who are too extreme in the legal direction who forget spirituality… and then end up with some people today with no law who are too extreme in the emotional/spiritual direction and forget the law.

So Islam is this middle ground–incorporating both concepts simultaneously. This is what is meant by a middle path, as Islam views itself.

The issue with this statement is that Christianity has not forgetten the laws, per se, but Christians do not follow them. As Chesterton said, being Christian has not been tried and found lacking, it has been found difficult and therefore left untried.

 

[inJESUS]

Howdy, Ed.

I get what you were saying about being a Christian and a Muslim at the same time. Since according to the definition of Islam in the Qur’an (such that Abraham was a Muslim), Jesus Christ was a Muslim. So a true Christian would be the religion of Jesus, right? Which would be Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

But on the other hand, Muslims reject what parts of previous scripture disagree with the Qur’an.

isn’t this calling God a liar by telling Him that His Word is corrupt, regardless of His saying His words cannot be corrupt, in both NT and OT, before Muhammad?

So the only real way to answer that, is:

 

[Angelos]

Do Christians believe that God would call a secular nation to be a “great nation” in the Bible?

Of course, we do! The qualifier “great” preceding the noun “nation” in that context does not necessarily have religious implications or connotations. When God promised to make Ishmael into a great nation, He simply meant that Ishmael would be the father of a significant nation on earth, NOT that his progeny would get the divine Law. God in the Torah never promises to make a covenant with Ismael or his seed.

More, we read in the Torah that God made all of Noah’s three sons the fathers of the world population (all the nations in the world!). Thus, God made Noah’s seed into many great nations, but did not choose all of those nations. It was the same case with Ishmael’s progeny.

Let us look at these verses from the NIV Bible:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

**“What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?” **( Deuteronomy 4:7-8)

In the above verses, we first see a clear promise from GOD Almighty that He will make a “great nation” from Ishmael’s descendants. We then see the definition of “great nation” as being a nation that directly receives a Law from GOD Almighty.

Ironically, the verses in Deuteronomy debunk your assertion because they associate the phrase “great nation” with Israel’s election by God. The context of those verses emphasize that NO OTHER NATION is as GREAT as Israel, which is chosen and singled out by God. Israel’s unique place in God’s sight is indicated by that they are the only nation to have received the Law from God!

Since “great nation” proves that the people have the Law of GOD Almighty, and since the descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) were promised to become a “great nation” in the Old Testament, then this clearly and irrefutably makes the Noble Quran as the Law of the LORD in the Old Testament

Interestingly, you use the Old Testament verses in question to prove that the Koran is a divine revelation from God; however, none of those verses is present in the Koran!

Above all, the promise in the Book of Genesis never contains an association between a great nation and God’s Law. Your technique is highly anachronistic in that it first focuses on the verse in Deuteronomy to attach a new meaning to the phrase “great nation” and then reads this new designation back into the context of the Book of Genesis.

 

[Ed_Rand]

What have you been disputing with me then? God singled Isaac out! Nothing significant about the promise given to Abraham about Ishmael!

The disputation is about the fact that God’s promise concerning Isaac was fullfilled in Jesus Christ whose followers have become a great nation of BELIEVERS. And, as I maintain, his promise to Ishmael and his decendants only came true with Muhammad and the Qur’an whose followers have become a great nation of BELIEVERS. And the people of both of these great nations have the chance to become childred of Abraham if they live by faith in what God has taught them. I don’t know how I can put it any clearer.

However, Abraham and Sarah’s supposed lack of faith did not make God change His mind! Isaac’s miraculous birth was a necessary sign indicating God’s election. Ishmael was born naturally and could not stay in Abraham’s house after Isaac’s birth. It is clear in the Torah that God told Abraham He was going to choose Isaac for His covenant.

 

[Angelos]

Do Christians believe that God would call a secular nation to be a “great nation” in the Bible?

Of course, we do! The qualifier “great” preceding the noun “nation” in that context does not necessarily have religious implications or connotations. When God promised to make Ishmael into a great nation, He simply meant that Ishmael would be the father of a significant nation on earth, NOT that his progeny would get the divine Law. God in the Torah never promises to make a covenant with Ismael or his seed.

More, we read in the Torah that God made all of Noah’s three sons the fathers of the world population (all the nations in the world!). Thus, God made Noah’s seed into many great nations, but did not choose all of those nations. It was the same case with Ishmael’s progeny.

Let us look at these verses from the NIV Bible:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation." (Genesis 17:20)

**“What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?” **( Deuteronomy 4:7-8)

In the above verses, we first see a clear promise from GOD Almighty that He will make a “great nation” from Ishmael’s descendants. We then see the definition of “great nation” as being a nation that directly receives a Law from GOD Almighty.

Ironically, the verses in Deuteronomy debunk your assertion because they associate the phrase “great nation” with Israel’s election by God. The context of those verses emphasize that NO OTHER NATION is as GREAT as Israel, which is chosen and singled out by God. Israel’s unique place in God’s sight is indicated by that they are the only nation to have received the Law from God!

Since “great nation” proves that the people have the Law of GOD Almighty, and since the descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) were promised to become a “great nation” in the Old Testament, then this clearly and irrefutably makes the Noble Quran as the Law of the LORD in the Old Testament

Interestingly, you use the Old Testament verses in question to prove that the Koran is a divine revelation from God; however, none of those verses is present in the Koran!

Above all, the promise in the Book of Genesis never contains an association between a great nation and God’s Law. Your technique is highly anachronistic in that it first focuses on the verse in Deuteronomy to attach a new meaning to the phrase “great nation” and then reads this new designation back into the context of the Book of Genesis.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Thank you Sister Amy! Excellent post.

You asked on page 7:
What is divine is what God has revealed, right? And God did reveal “eye for an eye.” So I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s animal–that suggests that the children of Israel were animals. And even in a metaphorical or legal sense I don’t think that’s acceptable. So God revealed it, because it is man’s nature to want revenge, but also to serve as a deterrent to harming other people.

I think we are agreeing. What I meant by “eye for an eye” is animal is that humans easily come to this conlusion on their own without God. “Turn the other cheek” makes no sense in human terms.

 

[inJESUS]

The disputation is about the fact that God’s promise concerning Isaac was fullfilled in Jesus Christ whose followers have become a great nation of BELIEVERS

. And, as I maintain, his promise to Ishmael and his decendants **only came true with Muhammad and the Qur’an **whose followers have become a great nation of BELIEVERS. And the people of both of these great nations have the chance to become childred of Abraham if they live by faith in what God has taught them. I don’t know how I can put it any clearer. i disagree, but for the conversation’s sake,i’ll pretend to agree. Your interpretation means that God fulfilled Isaac’s promise in Jesus whose nation bacame great believers, and fuilfilled Ishmael’s through Muhammad and his great believers, hence God is teaching through Isaac’s line that Jesus is His Son, that He was crucified and resurrected , yet the same God is teaching through Ishmael’s line that you are deluded and cursed if you believe what Isaac’s descendants taught. Does it even make sense Ed? why insult God’s words and truthfulness as Muslims do when they oppose everthing God taught because a book that came thousands and hundreds of years after OT and NT questions God’s truthfulness?

 

[inJESUS]

Thank you Sister Amy! Excellent post.

I think we are agreeing. What I meant by “eye for an eye” is animal is that humans easily come to this conlusion on their own without God. “Turn the other cheek” makes no sense in human terms.

i agree, that is why God was leading His people toward heavenly teachings as taught by Jesus.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Regarding why Jesus taught us to call God our Father, He did this because it was prophesied in the Old Testament:

“I had thought:
How I should like to treat you as sons,
And give you a pleasant land,
a heritage most beautiful among the
nations!
You would call me, “My Father,” I thought,
and never cease following me.”–Jeremiah 3:19

 

[Ed_Rand]

Does it even make sense Ed? why insult God’s words and truthfulness as Muslims do when they oppose everthing God taught because a book that came thousands and hundreds of years after OT and NT questions God’s truthfulness?

Muslims do not oppose everything God taught. What they oppose are a few key doctrines for us. Most important: these key doctrines should have no effect on the way a believer lives his or her personal life.

 

[Ed_Rand]

indeed and amen, so i think it is better to seek this level and not open door to revenge and hatred.

true. “turn the other cheek” is a higher level as we all admit, yet God commands those whose nations and ways of life are under attack and must survive–such as the Jews of old and the Muslims of today–to take “eye for an eye”.