Jesus Subordinate to Mary?

[TarHeelBrian]

I have relatives who are very upset that I’m hoping to join the Catholic Church and some have stated that they will have a better chance of achieving Heaven before I because I "pray to Mary."

How do I explain to them that Mary is Subordinate to Christ? Is that not what Catholics believe?

How do I explain the Co-Redemptrix belief?

I honor Mary just as much as my own mother, and honestly even more… Yet I just don’t understand how to explain about the saints and Mary to those who believe they are not to be honored…

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[guanophore]

I have relatives who are very upset that I’m hoping to join the Catholic Church and some have stated that they will have a better chance of achieving Heaven before I because I “pray to Mary.”

How do I explain to them that Mary is Subordinate to Christ? Is that not what Catholics believe?

How do I explain the Co-Redemptrix belief?

I honor Mary just as much as my own mother, and honestly even more… Yet I just don’t understand how to explain about the saints and Mary to those who believe they are not to be honored…

Any help is greatly appreciated!

I suggest you take a trip to the library here and read up on praying to mary and the saints, and the co-redemptrix. I know they are being sarcastic about your prayers and their salvation, but in fact, they are right! So, just respond “from your mouth, to God’s ear!”.

 

[LilyM]

Keep in mind that Mary as co-redemptrix is not at all a required Catholic belief, for beginners, and is unlikely to become so. A lot of people within the Church as well as without feel it would muddy up the waters, and I tend to agree. So you have nothing to justify or explain in that regard at least.

For that matter prayer to Mary isn’t either. But you can draw analogies with the Wedding at Cana, where it was initially Mary who came to know of the need of the hosts. One presumes they asked for her help, she doesn’t seem to have been an unusually bossy or nosy kinda person normally.

And then Mary brought the matter before Christ, who acted thanks to her intercession. Prayer is our way of letting her know that we still need help from Christ, and we believe she is still able to intercede for us.

 

[guanophore]

Co-redemptrix is not at all a required belief, for beginners, and is unlikely to become so - a lot of people within the Church as well as without feel it would muddy up the waters, and I tend to agree.

For that matter prayer to Mary isn’t either - but you can draw analogies with the Wedding at Cana, where Mary came to know of the need of the hosts and then brought the matter before Christ, who acted thanks to her intercession.

The problem Protestants have with Mary and the saints is that they are not aware of them being alive (they think they are dead) and they don’t understand where we are positionallly in Christ. We are seated in the heavenly places, where Christ is. We are to set our minds on things above, not on things of the earth. How much easier is it for those who have already crossed over!

What I like to do is ask them if they don’t have a person whose lives they admire, that if they really needed something, wouldn’t they ask for intercession. Usually there is a pious grandmother or a godly friend they can identify. I explain that it is the same, except that since Mary knows Jesus the best, she is the most effective prayer warrior.

 

[TarHeelBrian]

So, all in all, is it wrong to pray for Mary’s intercession?

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In no way do I pray to Mary more than Christ, He is my sole Redeemer and Savior… however, I feel more than comfortable with calling Mary, “Mother,” as well.

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Is that wrong?

 

[guanophore]

So, all in all, is it wrong to pray for Mary’s intercession?

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In no way do I pray to Mary more than Christ, He is my sole Redeemer and Savior… however, I feel more than comfortable with calling Mary, “Mother,” as well.

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Is that wrong?

No, indeed! Another problem protestants get into is this “either/or” thinking. In reality, it is “both/and”. We don’t pray to Mary “instead” of to Jesus, but she prays along with us. We send our prayers through her, as we would any godly brother or sister here on earth.

It is only our small minds that cannot comprehend the “motherness” that is in the Divine. As you can see in the creation story, God created them in His own image, “male and female created he them”. So, we know that God is both male and female, but we are most used to relating to God as male. Having a relationship with Mary helps us to reflect on the “female” part of His image that she bears.

 

[TarHeelBrian]

No, indeed! Another problem protestants get into is this “either/or” thinking. In reality, it is “both/and”. We don’t pray to Mary “instead” of to Jesus, but she prays along with us. We send our prayers through her, as we would any godly brother or sister here on earth.

It is only our small minds that cannot comprehend the “motherness” that is in the Divine. As you can see in the creation story, God created them in His own image, “male and female created he them”. So, we know that God is both male and female, but we are most used to relating to God as male. Having a relationship with Mary helps us to reflect on the “female” part of His image that she bears.

Got it!

 

[paramedicgirl]

So, all in all, is it wrong to pray for Mary’s intercession?

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In no way do I pray to Mary more than Christ, He is my sole Redeemer and Savior… however, I feel more than comfortable with calling Mary, “Mother,” as well.

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Is that wrong?

Praying for Mary’s intercession might be explained to your non-Catholic family as asking someone who is very close to God to give you a helping hand in getting your payers heard and answered. Since Mary is already in heaven and closer to God than we are, when we ask her to intercede for our intentions, that doubles our prayers, so to speak. In no way do we pray to Mary and ask her to grant our petitions, but that is a common misconception that protestants might have.

Since God has honoured Mary and the saints already, we should show them the respect that is due to them, by venerating their holiness that God has bestowed on them. In this way, we not only honour the saints, but we honour God as well.

 

[VociMike]

Among other things, point out that in the pinnacle of Catholic worship, the Mass, Jesus/God/Holy Spirit is mentioned or invoked well over a hundred times. Mary is mentioned four times.

If they think there’s no difference, offer to trade 4 of your dollars for 100 of theirs.

 

[TarHeelBrian]

Then how do I explain the devotions to Mary, such as Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc… in which Mary gave commands?

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No doubt about it, I do pray the rosary and pray the fatima prayers… but I’m just curious of how to explain it to those who don’t believe?

 

[LilyM]

Then how do I explain the devotions to Mary, such as Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc… in which Mary gave commands?

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No doubt about it, I do pray the rosary and pray the fatima prayers… but I’m just curious of how to explain it to those who don’t believe?

They’re hardly commands! It’s not like every Catholic does the Five Saturdays (most have never heard of it!), not all of us pray the Rosary or add the Fatima prayer to it, and certainly the Consecration of Russia for which she asked at Fatima was not done as she requested it (though a general Consecration of the World was done, which apparently was good enough).

 

[paramedicgirl]

Then how do I explain the devotions to Mary, such as Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc… in which Mary gave commands?

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No doubt about it, I do pray the rosary and pray the fatima prayers… but I’m just curious of how to explain it to those who don’t believe?

What ever Mary asks of us in her (approved) apparitions is always for the greater glory of God.

Here are some links to check out.

 

[VociMike]

Then how do I explain the devotions to Mary, such as Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc… in which Mary gave commands?

What commands are you talking about?

Anyway, prophets gave commands. Apostles gave commands. Angels gave commands. It shouldn’t surprise anybody, and certainly not Christians, that God has always used His creatures to pass along His commands.

 

[TarHeelBrian]

What commands are you talking about?

Anyway, prophets gave commands. Apostles gave commands. Angels gave commands. It shouldn’t surprise anybody, and certainly not Christians, that God has always used His creatures to pass along His commands.

Commands such as the First Five Saturdays, the Rosary decades, Consecration of Russia, etc…

I, however, am in no way surprised that God would use the woman He chose to give birth to His Son, Jesus Christ. That’d be like us not obeying our own mothers, IMHO.

I mean, I’m not yet a Catholic, but the Trinity is first and foremost… yet still obeying Mary as the Mother of all Christians, is just like obeying my own mother. She would not dare tell us to do something that would go against God and Her Son and the Holy Spirit. Boy, I just answered my own question… what do you know, joe?! (That’s a phrase, btw, like a “d’oh moment.”)

 

[HenryV]

Jesus is God, the Virgin is the mother of God and hence she has some kind of influence over God, wouldn’t you agree?
Is the Virgin subordinate to God?
Behold the slave-girl of the Lord she says in the Magnificat.
She is the most humble human person who has ever walked the earth. But Jesus is even more humble even if He’s a divine person so He always listens to His mother, wouldn’t you expect that God honors His own law the 4 th commantment?

Jesus is allpowerful by nature.
Mary is allpowerful by grace.

 

[guanophore]

Then how do I explain the devotions to Mary, such as Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc… in which Mary gave commands?

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No doubt about it, I do pray the rosary and pray the fatima prayers… but I’m just curious of how to explain it to those who don’t believe?

My recommendation would be not to try to explain it at all. Solid food is for the mature, and they need milk. Just say something sweet like “God works in mysterious ways” and let it go at that.

 

[Church_Militant]

Then how do I explain the devotions to Mary, such as Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, etc… in which Mary gave commands?

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**No doubt about it, I do pray the rosary and pray the fatima prayers… but I’m just curious of how to explain it to those who don’t believe?**I always point out that Mary’s message has never changed from what it was in John 2:5 "…Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye."
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Aramis]

Keep in mind also:

for every co-redemptrix believer, there is at least one who believes that that goes far enough to be heresy.

Marian devotions are not doctrinal nor dogmatic.

 

[LilyM]

Keep in mind also:

for every co-redemptrix believer, there is at least one who believes that that goes far enough to be heresy.

Marian devotions are not doctrinal nor dogmatic.

The four Marian doctrines - Mother of God, Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception and Assumption - are enough for most to have to wrap their heads around.

I have to say I think having a doctrine or dogma of Co-Redemptrix would be disastrous. Purely because of the unfortunately confusing terminology if nothing else. Although I agree with the concept of co-redemptrix, understanding by the term that all of Christ’s gifts, even His gift of redemption, flow to us (indirectly and in a subordinate way) through Mary.