Jesus taking on all of God's wrath & punishment

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Finally, if Jesus was already punished for everyone’s crimes that would mean not even repentance would be required or we could go as far as saying not even needing Faith in Christ.
No one believes that. We are saved by grace; it is God’s gift. He gives the gift via faith. Jesus died for all of us, but for the benefits to be applied on our behalf, we have to obey Christ. God is the one being merciful to us; beggars can’t be choose.
I can’t see how or why God would punish Jesus for I sin I committed and then turn around and punish me for the same sin.
He doesn’t. If we confess and repent of our sins. he is faithful to forgive and cleanse us (1 John 1:9). If we refuse to confess our sins and continue in sin, we will be judged for our offense against the grace of God:

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved **by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? **For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)
If “God the Father satisfied his justice by punishing Jesus instead of you and me.” why is there still punishment for an unrepentant or unbelieving sinner?
God is a king, but he ain’t the Burger King. You can’t have it your way. If you, having knowledge of the truth, continue to sin you have rejected the sacrifice of Christ (literally “trampled underfoot the Son of God” and “profaned the blood of the covenant” and “outraged the Spirit of grace”). We have a choice. We can love Christ (and those who love him obey him) and in so doing die to sin, or we can go our own way and live in sin earning the wages of our own iniquity.
Yes Jesus is making intercession for us not only at the right hand but also as the lamb the eternal sacrifice depicted in Revelation 5.
Yes, Jesus is the lamb on whom our sins were transferred to satisfy God’s wrath.
I agree it is a mystery but I do not think this verse can be taken literally. Jesus can not become sin, because sin is the lack of something good in our nature, and Christ cannot become something against his nature. So I believe this verse is saying he became a sin offering as a sacrifice to God in love.
He took on our sin and became a curse for us. Of course, Jesus was not sinful nor was he a curse, but we are sinful and he took on that sin. In some way, God made him sin so that we could be forgiven, redeemed, and reconciled to God. This is why we who are crucified with Christ can experience victory over sin. In Christ, our old, sinful selves died on the Cross.

continued next post
 
I’m good with the whole animal sacrifice part, but if you are saying that punishment equals death then you are in essence saying it was God that killed Jesus and I can’t see that in Scripture anywhere.
Yes, God kills those who are guilty of sin. God killed a lot of people for sins in the Bible. Ultimately, all of us would die and spend eternity in Hell, separated from God–if Jesus had not died in our place and taken our punishment.
Yeah this one is over my head. How do you know if you are in or out of Christ? Is it a feeling? Is it something you do? Do you just tell yourself that you are?
Romans 10:

6 the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
1 John 3:6 says No one who abides in him sins;[a] no one who sins has either seen him or known him. So if you sin the Bible says you do not know him which I’m guessing would take away the covering of Christ and you will be seen as your sinful self, correct?
Yes. If you are not covered by the blood then you stand under judgment. Of course, Christians do not make a habit of sinning. If we do sin, we confess to God, who is faithful to forgive. When we presume on God’s grace, however, we begin to get into the territory of Hebrews 10. This is why we are told to “let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Corinthians 10:12) and “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:12).
 
Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my ‘favourite topics.’
I heard and evangelical thank Jesus the other day for taking on all of God’s wrath and punishment on the cross at Calvary, so we didn’t have to. I was a little puzzled by his words, because this seems to go along with the objection I’ve heard quite often from Atheists, who characterize God as a bloodthirsty tyrant who killed his own son (Jesus) on the cross. They have the mindset that Jesus was sacrificed against his will in order to fulfill the requirements of his sadistic father.
Well, he was postulating what the atheists reject, and they are right to reject it.

As Itwin points out (in post #3), this is the theory often called ‘Penal Substitutionary Atonement’ (PSA). It is brilliantly criticised in the following meme (which I saved on my computer):



I first saw it on Facebook a while back, and the woman who posted it (let’s call her Wendy) said that her atheist brother-in-law had posted this. She found the meme silly but when you stop to think, and consider the context, it really isn’t.

Wendy’s Catholic, her brother-in-law atheist. I don’t know if he was Catholic at one time, but this meme perfectly describes Reformed soteriology. According to Calvin, when Christ offered himself on the Cross (and descended into Hell), Christ underwent a ‘switch’ or a ‘transfer of penalty’ (as Kim Fabricius points out). We find it disturbingly described in this blasphemous talk by R.C. Sproul: «Jesus was the ultimate obscenity» (4.46-4.50). «The one who was pure was pure no more… And God cursed him. It was if there was a cry from Heaven, excuse my language but I can be no more accurate then to say, ‘God damn you.’ Because that’s what it meant to be cursed, to be damned, to be under the anathema of the Father…» (6.27-7.04).

As mentioned above, this is the PSA theory, and if that is the context to which the meme points, then this meme is to the point. If Calvin’s theory of a ‘transfer of penalty’ is correct, then the resurrection IS a deal breaker. But if we read St. Paul, we see that he actually sees Christ as a representative, offering himself as a gift to God, not as a replacement onto which God can inflict punishment. And then the resurrection becomes rather the seal of the deal.

The Reformed or Calvinist idea is a self-contradiction it is the theory that Christ was punished with an infinite, yet finite, punishment. Which is obviously self-contradictionary. Calvin tried to present himself as part of the Anselmian tradition, yet he contradicted one of its most crucial points.

Anselm’s theory of satisfaction doesn’t day that Christ was punished as if he was guilty. This position is often called ‘Anselmian,’ but you won’t find it in his writings. It was not Anselm’s position. What he said was aut poena aut satisfaction, ‘either punishment or satisfaction.’ That means a crime (and in this case, sin) can be atoned for either by the punishment of the guilty person(s) or by satisfaction made either by the guilty person(s) or, if that is not possible, a representative of the guilty person(s). Thus Christ is the representative, not the ‘replacement.’

But Calvin, on the other hand, added to this the idea of a ‘transfer of penalty,’ thus rejecting the very core of the Anselmian idea, i.e. that a wrongdoing could be atoned for either by punishment of the wrongdoer or by satisfaction made by the wrongdoer or a representative. Aut poena aut satisfaction, ‘either punishment or satisfaction.’ Note the either/or. This, unfortunately, can be said of Luther, too. Fortunately his idea never made it into the confessions. At least not in his Small Catechism. It is neither found in Confessio Augustana.

Read Paul Fiddes’ book Past Event and Present Salvation: The Christian Idea of Atonement (Westminster/John Knox Press 1989), especially chapter five, ‘The demands of justice’ (pp.83-111). The whole chapter can be read on Google Books. Read the entire chapter. He writes (p.97-98): Anselm rejects a view of ‘penal substitution’; Christ is not punished in our place, but releases us from punishment through satisfaction. When, however, later on in the Reformation period, the Roman view of criminal law as a supreme principle had been re-established in society, replacing feudal law, there could be no alternative to punishment if the law were infringed. The only satisfaction that could be offered to outraged justice was punishment. When Calvin built a theory of atonement upon the principle of divine justice, he therefore concluded that ‘the guilt, which held us liable to punishment, was transferred to the head of the Son of God’. God’s law had been infringed through human sin, and so penatly must be inflicted upon offenders in orders to maintain the moral order of the universe. The Calvinist idea, which is described in the opening post, is NOT Anselmian, and it is certainly not biblical. Christ was NOT the victim of the Father’s wrath. The way he atoned for our transgressions was that he offered God satisfaction; he gave God something that surpassed the punishment. He gave himself as a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, an ongoing sacrifice (cf. 1John 2:2, Heb 7:24-25, 8:1-3) that we may partake of in faith, and through the sacraments (especially the Eucharist).

In fact, our participation makes absolutely no sense if Christ is our ‘replacement.’ If Christ died on the cross so that we didn’t have to, why are we «crucified with Christ»?
 
The Calvinist idea, which is described in the opening post, is NOT Anselmian,** and it is certainly not biblical**. Christ was NOT the victim of the Father’s wrath. The way he atoned for our transgressions was that he offered God satisfaction; he gave God something that surpassed the punishment. He gave himself as a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, an ongoing sacrifice (cf. 1John 2:2, Heb 7:24-25, 8:1-3) that we may partake of in faith, and through the sacraments (especially the Eucharist).

In fact, our participation makes absolutely no sense if Christ is our ‘replacement.’ If Christ died on the cross so that we didn’t have to, why are we «crucified with Christ»?
I’m not sure this squares with Scripture or the Catechism:
Jesus substitutes his obedience for our disobedience
615 "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous."443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant,* who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”*.444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.445
 
It is Biblical in a sense. The sacrifice of Jesus did satisfy the wrath of God.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
Romans 5:9
Thanks for the reply. But I am more hung up on the punishment portion of what he said. Just can’t see or understand it biblically. As for the wrath of God, I don’t think us humans totally understand what that means. I think we use that term because we don’t know how else to describe it. I think we say wrath of God because we understand God’s justice the same way a 4 year old understands their parents justice. The kid thinks their parents are being so unfair and so mean. But now that I am 46 I look back and wonder why they didn’t lock me up and throw away the key. I remember hearing a caller ask Tim Staples won’t we be eternally sad in heaven if one of our relatives ends up in hell. His response was once we see the beatific vision of Christ we will be able to understand God’s justice (wrath) and this understanding will actually give us the peace of knowing perfect judgement has been served.
 
Thanks for the reply. But I am more hung up on the punishment portion of what he said. Just can’t see or understand it biblically.
Pardon me. Does punishment and atonement really have the same meaning? Some confusion between punishment and atonement could be the base for the problem. In addition, God’s wrath sounds artificial as if someone does not know that in order for a human to have a friendship relationship with a Divine Creator, that human needs to freely live in submission. There cannot be two equal supreme gods.
 
I appreciate your responses grannymh, they have given me some more info to study on, however I did want to say a little more detail would be helpful. I’m not that far along in my faith journey as you obviously are so quite often your posts leave me puzzled how they relate to the original question.
A basic understanding of the necessity of a Divine Jesus Christ can be found in the first three chapters of Genesis. One needs to start with the original friendship relationship between Divinity and humanity aka the friendship relationship between God the creator and Adam the creature. Obviously, it helps to understand the Catholic teachings which flow from these three chapters.
Thanks for this I will look for a more in depth bible study on Genesis. But are you saying the only way to understand the original question is to understand a Divine Jesus Christ?
The basic truth is that Jesus stepped into the sandals of Adam. That is the basic meaning of the Incarnation. Jesus assumed human nature and therefore, being Divine, only He could restore the original relationship initiated by the Divine Creator.

1Corinthians 15: 54-55

“Death is swallowed up in victory.
Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”%between%
A little more detail would be good here. I understand the concept of Jesus is the new Adam but how do I go from there to the OP.
The hidden danger in some of the “atonement” concepts is the notion that the Catholic Sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation is not important. There is the old saying “Once saved, always saved.” This saying effectively omits intellective free choice as an essential element of human nature. It omits the universal truth that we humans need to be sorry for our personal sins. Personal sorrow and seeking God’s mercy is real. Not only did Jesus open the gates of heaven, He established the Catholic Church so that He could remain with us in our journey to joy eternal with our God, following bodily death.
Yep agree here. The guy I’m dealing with is an OSAS, believes if we so much as lift a finger we deny Christs death on the cross.
Perhaps it is time to recognize that the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity assumed human nature and not absorbed human nature. Because Jesus did not absorb human nature there is no reason to say that He took on our guilt.

One could say that Jesus “paid the price for our sins” by His obedience. It is His obedience unto death which made possible the grace of Baptism. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases the State of Original Sin. (refer to CCC 405) And thus we are in the State of Sanctifying Grace. (CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898)
I do agree with you here. Quite often I ask questions of others because I want to understand why they believe what they believe. I do agree with you here, that’s why I said “I believe he paid the price for our sins but just can’t see, from scriptural, how he took on our guilt as well.” I was just asking where the Bible tells us he took on our guilt as well.
Pardon me. Does punishment and atonement really have the same meaning? Some confusion between punishment and atonement could be the base for the problem. In addition, God’s wrath sounds artificial as if someone does not know that in order for a human to have a friendship relationship with a Divine Creator, that human needs to freely live in submission. There cannot be two equal supreme gods.
I’m not quite sure why you directed this one at me? I personally don’t think they have the same meaning but some people obviously must. That is why I was trying to understand the other posters definition of punishment. I agree with you that God’s wrath sounds artificial. If you look to my last post above yours that was what I was trying to get at when I said “As for the wrath of God, I don’t think us humans totally understand what that means. I think we use that term because we don’t know how else to describe it.” I also, agree with the submission part that is why I compared us to a 4 year old’s understanding of the discipline of their father. If the 4 year old is in charge the house will end up in chaos.
 
“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

“Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief . . .” (Isaiah 53:10).

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

As Wayne Grudem writes in Systematic Theology (p. 577):

Herein we see something of the amazing love of both God the Father and God the Son in redemption. Not only did Jesus know that he would bear the incredible pain of the cross, but God the Father also knew that he would have to inflict this pain on his own deeply loved Son. “God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).
I think Grudem is putting way to much emphasis on the term “will of the Lord”. If “will of the Lord” equates to “God the Father also knew that he would have to” we are gonna have all kinds of Biblical problems. God’s will shows up a ton of times in the Bible if we plug “God knew he would have to” into every one of those verses we will change the entire meaning of the Bible. I believe “God’s will” more equates to something God allows to happen, or desires to happen, or knows must happen for our salvation. I do not believe it is something that God causes to happen against our free will. Does Grudem go into how we define the “will of God” to mean God had to in this instance but means God desires in other instances?
The same with “laid on him” doesn’t necessarily mean God thrust this upon Christ (punished him with it), Christ had to choose to accept it.
I already said why the last verse can’t mean Christ became sin. “Jesus can not become sin, because sin is the lack of something good in our nature, and Christ cannot become something against his nature. So I believe this verse is saying he became a sin offering as a sacrifice to God in love.”
How do you define the “will of God” in the Bible?
If you commit a crime, but I, out of my love for you, confess to the crime and am found guilty, then I will indeed suffer punishment for your crime. It just so happens that Jesus was the only being in existence who could be a perfect sacrifice for us. I may be able to be your substitute in a human legal system, but I would never be an acceptable substitute for you before God because I have my own sins to account for. Jesus was the only God-man, the only human being who was without sin. There was no plan B. There was only him.
Your example is actually the point that I was trying to make earlier. If you confess to my crime and become a “substitute” for me and accept my punishment how can I ever be punished for the same crime? So if Christ was already punished how could I ever be punished, regardless of repentance. If you really think about your example the only possible way of me being punished would be if I repented and actually confessed to the crime as well. Therefor, the only logical conclusion would be to keep my mouth shut, you took my punishment I am free and clear. I don’t want to change the direction of the OP but I think, for the Catholic, this is where Purgatory comes into play. If no sin can enter heaven and we must be perfect to enter heaven how do we attain this perfection. If we still sin here on earth we have obviously not attained it, so what changes after we die to attain that perfection to enter have? Especially since God doesn’t see our sin he sees Christ at the judgement. If we enter heaven with our sin, cause God didn’t see it, what keeps us from sinning in heaven, especially since we were never punished for it? Let’s think of this from an earthly stand point though. If you accept the punishment for my sin, what keeps me from doing it again? If a child (that’s us in the eyes of God) has no punishment/ no consequences, how do they learn their lesson?
No. God was perfectly able to accomplish all his other plans throughout history even considering the existence of free will. Why would the crucifixion be different?
I don’t see how this proves God did the punishing? All it shows is the outcome of the crucifixion fit perfectly into God’s plan.
But more to the point, according to the penal substitution view, a crucial aspect of the atonement is that Christ, as a propitiation, bore the wrath of God instead of us. The very fact that there is “no condemnation” for those in Christ is because the wrath of God has already been poured out on Christ. There is no wrath left for those who are washed in the blood. Both the mercy and the justice of God are satisfied.

Continued next post
See this is the wishy washy part that doesn’t seem to add up. The theory is God poured out all his wrath on Christ on the cross and “both the mercy and the justice of God are satisfied”. However, disclaimer he still held a little back for the unbeliever. Doesn’t this kind of deny the punishment of Christ? If Christ took on all of our punishment then there is no punishment left for anyone, period. Our involvement would not be necessary. Now if Christ made an infinite sacrifice for our sins, the debt has been paid but we are still involved. There still is repentance on our part, there might even be punishment (either temporal or eternal). Back to the example of my son. If he drives his car into the side of the house, I might sacrifice my weekend trip away to pay to have the house and the car fixed but do you think he is going to get away without doing some form of penance? More importantly do you think he will learn anything without doing some form of penance? Just so we are on the same page I define penance as a form of punishment to right a wrong. I think God treats us the same way.
 
If you confess to my crime and become a “substitute” for me and accept my punishment how can I ever be punished for the same crime?
You wouldn’t be punished for the same crime. But if I serve time for the crime you actually did, and then you later on commit the same crime again, I don’t have to take the blame. I can say, look I’ve already sacrificed myself for you once and you have insulted me by yet again committing the same crime and getting arrested. No, I will not help you this time; you made your choice and you chose to reject the gift I gave you and destroy your life.
So if Christ was already punished how could I ever be punished, regardless of repentance.
Why did Jesus die on the cross if God is still going to punish us for our sins? If we confess and repent, God is faithful to forgive because Christ has made atonement for us. Why would a just God accept Christ’s death as a propitiation only to come back to us and say his death was not enough, we must still be punished? If that is the case, Christ died for nothing.
Why would God wan’t to punish you for something Christ already died to forgive you for?
He wouldn’t want to, and he doesn’t for those who repent of their sins and turn to Christ.
Your sins have been washed away. Go
Unless they haven’t been washed away. If you do not have faith in Christ and his saving work on the cross, you have not been washed in the blood. You still have free will to accept or reject God’s grace.
Therefor, the only logical conclusion would be to keep my mouth shut, you took my punishment I am free and clear.
You confess to God and repent, meaning you don’t sin again. If you sin again over and over again God is not just going to say “Oh well Jesus died and you get to do whatever you want.” No, God has said, if we keep on sinning “there is no more sacrifice.” We must truly repent or we will be judged. God is perfectly capable of discerning truth over lip service.
I don’t want to change the direction of the OP but I think, for the Catholic, this is where Purgatory comes into play.
We aren’t just declared righteous. We do become righteous as we are conformed to the image of Christ, as we daily die to ourselves and the flesh and make use of the means of grace to bring spiritual discipline to our lives. This is what Protestants call progressive sanctification–Christians are both positionally holy and actually becoming holy in this life.
I don’t see how this proves God did the punishing? All it shows is the outcome of the crucifixion fit perfectly into God’s plan.
OK. Then why pose free will as a problem in the first place? It’s never been a problem for God before. His will is still accomplished even though all 7 billion of us have free will.
See this is the wishy washy part that doesn’t seem to add up. The theory is God poured out all his wrath on Christ on the cross and “both the mercy and the justice of God are satisfied”. However, disclaimer he still held a little back for the unbeliever. Doesn’t this kind of deny the punishment of Christ?
No. The purpose is not to punish Christ but to bring us back into perfect relationship with God (the entire Trinity). That can’t happen if (1) you don’t believe in God and (2) you deny that God is God of your life. If you cannot obey God, then you cannot love him. And if you do not love God, how can you ever have perfect fellowship with him as we were created to have? God “held” nothing “back for the unbeliever.” The unbeliever chooses a life outside of God’s fellowship, and this choice is an eternal one.
If Christ took on all of our punishment then there is no punishment left for anyone, period.
No, not period. We don’t get to set the rules when someone willingly dies on our behalf.God doesn’t need us. We need him. We come to him on his terms, not ours.
Our involvement would not be necessary.
Of course it would. You have to actually want to be in fellowship with God.
Now if Christ made an infinite sacrifice for our sins, the debt has been paid but we are still involved. There still is repentance on our part, there might even be punishment (either temporal or eternal).
I’m not understanding where this is coming from. According to the penal substitutonary view, Christ’s death was an infinite sacrifice for our sins. (The whole point of the sacrificial system is that the sacrifice dies in your place. In other words, the sacrifice takes your punishment so you don’t have to. Are we not using the same definition for sacrifice?)
Back to the example of my son.
Of course, sins have temporal consequences. Christ’s atonement means that for those who are in Christ there is no more condemnation before God. That does not mean that if I sin in this life that God will magically make my life free of consequences for my behavior. Furthermore, the church also has godly authority to dispense discipline to Christians who are living in unrepentant sin meant to both lead the sinner to repentance and protect the integrity of the rest of the body of Christ.

But none of this has any bearing on how we receive forgiveness. We receive forgiveness as a free gift by confession and repentance (change of life, turning from sin).
 
You wouldn’t be punished for the same crime. But if I serve time for the crime you actually did, and then you later on commit the same crime again, I don’t have to take the blame. I can say, look I’ve already sacrificed myself for you once and you have insulted me by yet again committing the same crime and getting arrested. No, I will not help you this time; you made your choice and you chose to reject the gift I gave you and destroy your life.

Why did Jesus die on the cross if God is still going to punish us for our sins? If we confess and repent, God is faithful to forgive because Christ has made atonement for us. Why would a just God accept Christ’s death as a propitiation only to come back to us and say his death was not enough, we must still be punished? If that is the case, Christ died for nothing.
We seem to be talking passed each other on this example. The point I was trying to make was the necessity of repentance. You use it to try to prove your point but ignore it in my post. I agree with you here “If we confess and repent, God is faithful to forgive because Christ has made atonement for us.” But my question right back at you:
Why was Jesus punished by God on the cross for the sins of the whole world and then he turns around and punishes an unrepentant sinner? Why would a just God punish Christ on the cross and kill him as a propitiation only to come back to us and say his death was not enough, the unrepentant must still be punished?
No. The purpose is not to punish Christ but to bring us back into perfect relationship with God (the entire Trinity).
This is the whole reason why I don’t see God punished Christ in the Bible. Which I still don’t see evidence of. As I metioned in the last post the only verse you mentioned that could be taken that way is if the “Will of God” equals “God knew he would have to”. Which you didn’t respond to my queston:
How do you define the “will of God” in the Bible?
Are we not using the same definition for sacrifice?
I don’t think so. Sacrifice can mean an act of slaughtering an animal as an offering to God. But it can also mean the act of giving up something in order to help someone. I’m guessing you are using the former with the later and I am using the later with the former. My view Jesus freely offered himself on the cross as a sacrifice to the Father, therefore it was not a punishment from God. It seems your view point is Jesus was sacrificed and punished on the cross at the hand of the Father. ie he was put to death, which would mean he did not have a choice. I don’t see how you could have it both ways.
 
Why was Jesus punished by God on the cross for the sins of the whole world and then he turns around and punishes an unrepentant sinner? Why would a just God punish Christ on the cross and kill him as a propitiation only to come back to us and say his death was not enough, the unrepentant must still be punished?
It is enough, but its not just a matter of it being enough. There was a purpose to Christ’s atonement. “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1). Christ’s sacrifice was enough to set us free, but we can return to the slavery of sin if we choose. That is not God’s lack or his fault. The fault lies with us if we choose that path.

If we willingly choose sin after being set free from it then we have rejected Christ’s vicarious atonement on our behalf. We have told Christ, thanks but no thanks I’ll do it my way.
This is the whole reason why I don’t see God punished Christ in the Bible. Which I still don’t see evidence of. As I metioned in the last post the only verse you mentioned that could be taken that way is if the “Will of God” equals “God knew he would have to”. Which you didn’t respond to my queston:
How do you define the “will of God” in the Bible?
I know this. The Lord laid on Christ our iniquity. It was the Lord’s will (he willed it) to crush him and cause him grief. God made Christ sin for us. What I find when I read Scripture is that Christ bore God’s wrath on our behalf. He was punished for our sins.
I don’t think so. Sacrifice can mean an act of slaughtering an animal as an offering to God. But it can also mean the act of giving up something in order to help someone. I’m guessing you are using the former with the later and I am using the later with the former. My view Jesus freely offered himself on the cross as a sacrifice to the Father, therefore it was not a punishment from God. It seems your view point is Jesus was sacrificed and punished on the cross at the hand of the Father. ie he was put to death, which would mean he did not have a choice. I don’t see how you could have it both ways.
Of course you can have it both ways.

We were separated from God. There needed to be atonement. Jesus freely submitted to the will of the Father and became our vicar, to stand vicariously in our place. Once Jesus freely took on the guilt of our sin, God punished him thereby satisfying his own justice.

In no part of the process was Jesus not capable of refusing to be our vicar. We can see this in Matthew 26, especially verse 53:

50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.” Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 **Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? **54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.

Jesus did not have to die. He could have appealed to the Father and there would have been rescue. Both God the Father and the Son wanted this to happen, because they wanted us to be saved.

Furthermore, I don’t think you can say that Jesus was a sacrifice in the sense of simply giving up his life for us. Scripture is clear that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice in terms of the sacrificial system God established in the Old Testament. Blood had to be shed. Sin requires death. Jesus took that punishment, that penalty for us. He died so that we don’t have to.

He is the scapegoat of the Day of Atonement. Leviticus 16:20-22:

20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.

Our sins were “put on” Jesus, who takes them away along with our guilt.
 
It is enough, but its not just a matter of it being enough. There was a purpose to Christ’s atonement. “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1). Christ’s sacrifice was enough to set us free, but we can return to the slavery of sin if we choose. That is not God’s lack or his fault. The fault lies with us if we choose that path.

If we willingly choose sin after being set free from it then we have rejected Christ’s vicarious atonement on our behalf. We have told Christ, thanks but no thanks I’ll do it my way.
I agree with what you say here. But my question is about punishment. If you look back in your posts when you state your facts you use the word punishment, but when you want to refute my argument you use the word sacrifice. These words are not interchangeable in my dictionary.
I know this. The Lord laid on Christ our iniquity. It was the Lord’s will (he willed it) to crush him and cause him grief. God made Christ sin for us. What I find when I read Scripture is that Christ bore God’s wrath on our behalf. He was punished for our sins.
“I know this” isn’t necessarily Biblical evidence. How do we know in this particular verse God’s will means “he willed it” and in others it means “he desired it”?
Of course you can have it both ways.
We were separated from God. There needed to be atonement. Jesus freely submitted to the will of the Father and became our vicar, to stand vicariously in our place. Once Jesus freely took on the guilt of our sin, God punished him thereby satisfying his own justice.
In no part of the process was Jesus not capable of refusing to be our vicar. We can see this in Matthew 26, especially verse 53:
50 Jesus said to him, “Friend, do what you came to do.” Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. 51 And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant[g] of the high priest and cut off his ear. 52 Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 **Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? **54 But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?” 55 At that hour Jesus said to the crowds, “Have you come out as against a robber, with swords and clubs to capture me? Day after day I sat in the temple teaching, and you did not seize me. 56 But all this has taken place that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples left him and fled.
Jesus did not have to die. He could have appealed to the Father and there would have been rescue. Both God the Father and the Son wanted this to happen, because they wanted us to be saved.
Furthermore, I don’t think you can say that Jesus was a sacrifice in the sense of simply giving up his life for us. Scripture is clear that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice in terms of the sacrificial system God established in the Old Testament. Blood had to be shed. Sin requires death. Jesus took that punishment, that penalty for us. He died so that we don’t have to.
He is the scapegoat of the Day of Atonement. Leviticus 16:20-22:
20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place and the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall present the live goat. 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the people of Israel, and all their transgressions, all their sins. And he shall put them on the head of the goat and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. 22 The goat shall bear all their iniquities on itself to a remote area, and he shall let the goat go free in the wilderness.
Our sins were “put on” Jesus, who takes them away along with our guilt.
You aren’t saying anything I don’t agree with, yes Jesus was our perfect sacrifice, yes he did have free will. However, nothing you cited here brings us to the conclusion that God did the punishing or that he was a substitute (he becomes guilty of our sins). You stated “Jesus freely submitted to the will of the Father”. Yes I agree “Jesus freely submitted to what the Father desired”. However, I can not see how it is possible for “Jesus to freely submitted to the what the Father made happen”. It’s like me saying to my son the grass needs cut today, you have the free will to cut it or not, BUT THAT GRASS BETTER BE CUT BY THE TIME I GET HOME FROM WORK!
 
Pardon me. Does punishment and atonement really have the same meaning? Some confusion between punishment and atonement could be the base for the problem.
Yes, that’s where I think the confusion lies. When Christ made satisfaction for us, atoned for our sins, he wasn’t punished as if he was guilty. I think we need to repeat Anselm’s words again and again: aut poena aut satisfaction, ‘either punishment or satisfaction.’ That means a crime (and in this case, sin) can be atoned for either by the punishment of the guilty person(s) or by satisfaction made either by the guilty person(s) or, if that is not possible, a representative of the guilty person(s). Thus Christ is the representative, not a ‘replacement’ onto whom God can inflict punishment.
 
I appreciate your responses grannymh, they have given me some more info to study on, however I did want to say a little more detail would be helpful. I’m not that far along in my faith journey as you obviously are so quite often your posts leave me puzzled how they relate to the original question.
I am having computer problems with “quoting” from your post. Here are my general thoughts.

Practically speaking, the original question OP can be viewed as a huge puzzle. Over the centuries, preachers and teachers have added pieces or taken away pieces. I often refer to “puzzle pieces” hoping to ignite thinking so that a needed puzzle piece can be found.

Perhaps it is time to face the obvious that Jesus Himself does not consider His life and death as a punishment. Jesus assumed human nature which means that His human nature was sinless without guilt. Jesus did not take on human guilt. He became human so that we humans can recognize Him as the Good Shepherd. The Gospels tell us that Jesus comes to us in order to bring us into the Kingdom of God. Jesus is the Good Shepherd leading people to joy eternal with Him in heaven. His Resurrection does not fall into a punishment category.
 
Sorry I’m a little slow on responding, I’ll continue trying to catch up….
Originally Posted by PolliceVerso
(Post #11)
The Catholic Catechism says this:
615 “For as by on man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.” 443 By his obedience unto death, Jesus accomplished the substitution of the suffering Servant, who “makes himself an offering for sin”, when “he bore the sin of many”, and who “shall make many to be accounted righteous”, for “he shall bear their iniquities”. 444 Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins to the Father.
This is the very essence of the Gospel: that Jesus Christ lived a perfect life that we as Christians should live, and died the death that we deserve to die because of our sin. The Apostles’ Creed states that Jesus “descended into hell”, and St. Paul explains the importance of this in Romans 5:17-18.

The “substitution of Christ as the suffering servant who makes himself an offering for sin” is the substitution of the offering and not the substitution of the guilt or punishment. Jesus atoned for our faults and made satisfaction for our sins not be being punished in our place, but by making a perfect offering in our place and thus reconciling mankind to God. The animal sacrifices in the OT were offered in reparation to God but the animals were not being punished in place of the people. The True Lamb of God was likewise not being punished, but was substituting a holy and spotless offering in place of mankind’s own sin blemished offerings.

Jesus did “descend into hell” but “hell” is understood to be the place of the dead (Sheol, Abraham’s bosom) and not the place of the damned for punishment. Jesus did not go to “hell” to be punished, rather he went to “preach to the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) and he did this while being “put to death in the flesh but being alive in the spirit (1 Pet 3:18). Being “alive in the spirit” in biblical terms means being filled with Grace and/or the Holy Spirit. Suffering in the hell of the damned and being filled with the love of God through Grace and/or the Holy Spirit is a contradiction in terms. Jesus was not being punished in hell.
Originally Posted by PolliceVerson
(Post #11)
In other words, Jesus died on the cross and descended to hell until the Resurrection, and that satisfies God’s just demands for our sins. That is exactly why God is “faithful and just (1 John 1:9) to forgive our sins when we confess: because Christ has already atoned for our sins, it would be unjust for God to punish us for those same sins – it would be exacting a double penalty for the same offense.
As for physical death, St. Paul answers this directly in Romans 8:10: ”But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” Sin is corrupting and leads to physical death, but not ultimate death because we have the hope of resurrection because “he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through the Spirit who dwells in you.” (Romans 8:11).
As previously stated, Jesus’ descent into hell was for the purpose of preaching to those in prison and not for the purpose of satisfying God’s wrath. The view of Penal Substitution does not demonstrate how God is “faithful and just”. Jesus was the second Adam in representing all of mankind through his humanity. As such, even though he was a Divine Person (God the Son), he was still judged as a man in the same manner that we all will be judged. To say that Jesus was “punished” by physical death and then “punished” by spiritual death (even willingly and temporarily) in hell would be the definition of an injustice to Jesus. God’s judgment is True, but with Penal Substitution in regards to Jesus, his judgment was false and an injustice regardless of whether it was willingly accepted or not.

If Jesus has already paid the punishment for our sins, then the fact that we still all die physically is in fact exacting a double penalty for the same offense. If Jesus was the “substitution” of the punishment, then everyone who has repented of those very sins that he paid the penalty for should never die. Even though we will be resurrected (both the just and the unjust will be resurrected Acts 24:15), we still pay the physical punishment for sin which demonstrates that Jesus did not substitute the physical punishment for our sins. The fact that Jesus was/is not punished in hell also demonstrates that he did not substitute the spiritual punishment of sin either.
Originally Posted by Itwin
(Post #14)
Likewise, Jesus was not guilty of sin, but our sins were transferred onto him. He died, so that his blood could purify us and make forgiveness possible.
If our sins were transferred or “imputed” onto Jesus, then Jesus was no longer a pure offering. His offering to the Father would have the same problem that all of mankind since Adam had. It would be an imperfect offering tainted by sin. Jesus’ offering would be tainted not just with one person’s sins, but by all mankind’s sins through the centuries. He would no longer be a sinless, pure, and spotless offering. Tainted by all of mankind’s sins, his offering would be the most blemished of all and would not be able to purify anyone. Our sins were not imputed onto Jesus because Jesus’ offering was a pure offering without any blemish from start to finish.
 
Originally Posted by Itwin
(Post #14)
We are told that “For our sake God made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). God is a holy God, but Christ took on the punishment and iniquity of us all. It is a mystery, but it happened.
Jesus was free from all sin and therefore free from any punishment due to sin. But at the incarnation, Jesus became man and in solidarity with man and assuming the role of the “second Adam”, he freely accepted to suffer and die like the rest of mankind “in the form of a fallen humanity” (CCC #602). Jesus has authority from the Father to lay down his life in suffering and death (John 10:18) despite being innocent, and in that sense to be “made sin for our sake” (2 Cor 5:21). We die as a punishment for sin. Jesus died as a sacrificial offering for redemption.

To say that God punished the innocent Jesus, even if it was willingly accepted and only temporary, is a contradiction with the statement that “God is a Holy God”. Jesus died in solidarity with man as a pure offering representing mankind, not in substitution of man taking our punishment.
Originally Posted by KjetilK
(Post #25)
The way he atoned for our transgressions was that he offered God satisfaction; he gave God something that surpassed the punishment.
Supplemental biblical reference: “hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins” (1 Peter 4:8 also James 5:20). The punishment for sin is covered by love. Penal Substitution would be more along the lines of an eye for an eye which Christ abolishes even before his death (Matt 5:38-39).
 
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