Jesus the Embryo (Another Ensoulment Question)

[Brendan_64]

I suppose I don’t see it as backwards, if someone is trying to convince a fellow Christian who accepts Christ’s dignified status, but not every humans. I see it, in this instance, as analogy. More as symbiotic, than opposed. The fact that Christ became man dignifies our nature, too.

But it doesn’t. We are not dignified because Christ became one of us, we are dignified because we are created in the image of God. We are created at conception and on creation we reflect the image of God. The fact that Christ became one of us does not dignify our nature, because our nature was already dignified.

Our nature is not dignified because of Christ becoming one of us, our nature is dignified through our creation in the image of God.

 

[TCEL]

But it doesn’t. We are not dignified because Christ became one of us, we are dignified because we are created in the image of God. We are created at conception and on creation we reflect the image of God. The fact that Christ became one of us does not dignify our nature, because our nature was already dignified.

Our nature is not dignified because of Christ becoming one of us, our nature is dignified through our creation in the image of God.

I understand and 100% agree that we are created in the image and likeness of God, and that our dignity flows from that. What an awesome thing. But I also understand that the Incarnation deepened our understanding of that dignity in a way heretofore unknown to the Israelites. The Incarnation is a monumental thing. I don’t think these two concepts are opposed to each other, but shine light on each other. I’m not saying we had no inherent dignity until the Incarnation; but that the Incarnation sheds light on how much dignity we have. I wish I remember who said this, but I’ll try to paraphrase. Christ didn’t only reveal God to us, He revealed us to ourselves. Is this not true?

 

[Usagi]

I dont see anything there that is problematic. Christ was fully human as well as fully divine, of cpurse, but He was sinless. Humans are sinful creatures. How is this so? He is the exception once again, of course. IMO same concept in regards to His soul.

and think about the process in which Jesus was conceived. The Lord put the Holy Spirit (Jesus) into Mary. He didnt inseminate her and fertilize an egg and then a soul created. The Spirit entered into her womb directly.

Humans are NOT sinful by nature, but by the corruption of nature. Jesus assumed the original human nature that God created in Adam and Eve. Jesus being sinless makes him more truly human than us, as humans are intended to be, not less.

Also, you are conflating the Son and the Holy Spirit in your description of the Incarnation. They are distinct persons of the Trinity. The Spirit caused the conception, but did not become the baby that was conceived. That was God the Son.

Likewise, while God did not need to create a sperm cell to cause Jesus’ conception, I thought that we Catholics, at least, generally believed that He did use one of Mary’s eggs. The alternative comes perilously close to the “Mary was just an incubator” view.

Usagi

 

[Brendan_64]

Likewise, while God did not need to create a sperm cell to cause Jesus’ conception, I thought that we Catholics, at least, generally believed that He did use one of Mary’s eggs. The alternative comes perilously close to the “Mary was just an incubator” view.

Yes, in order to be truly one of us as a human, he had to have an earthly mother. Jesus was genetically Mary’s son, and she was his mother (not his foster mother). For this to happen one of Mary’s eggs had to be used.

 

[TCEL]

I just wanted to thank everyone again. This is really helping me.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

But it doesn’t. We are not dignified because Christ became one of us, we are dignified because we are created in the image of God. We are created at conception and on creation we reflect the image of God. The fact that Christ became one of us does not dignify our nature, because our nature was already dignified.

Our nature is not dignified because of Christ becoming one of us, our nature is dignified through our creation in the image of God.

Good stuff

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Christ didn’t only reveal God to us, He revealed us to ourselves. Is this not true?

Yes this is also very true.
We only understand ourselves in relationship to others - esp our Maker.
But what this has to do with the thread topic I do not know.

 

[TCEL]

Yes this is also very true.
We only understand ourselves in relationship to others - esp our Maker.
But what this has to do with the thread topic I do not know.

It has everything to do with it . I am attempting to find ways to show to a non-Catholic Christian, from a source they respect (Scripture), as to the likeness between Christ and ourselves, and how this affects their understanding of abortion. Ensoulment gets nowhere it seems. So it’s probably best to argue from the perspective of the Incarnation itself, and to say that if some embryos can be disposed, then, well, we place Jesus Himself under that same category. I don’t see anyway around this conclusion, except from arguing that the second person of the Trinity always existed, whereas we didn’t. The Incarnation is important because it points to a time in history where Jesus assumed humanity.

 

[Brendan_64]

It has everything to do with it . I am attempting to find ways to show to a non-Catholic Christian, from a source they respect (Scripture), as to the likeness between Christ and ourselves, and how this affects their understanding of abortion.

Perhaps ask them whether, as a woman pregnant out of wedlock, in a culture where women could be stoned to death for being pregnant outside of marriage, Mary had the ‘right to choose’? Would your friend have supported Mary’s ‘right’ to abortion? Jesus was after all fully human, he had exactly the same biology in the womb as any other human does. Was Christ in the womb a ‘non-viable human’ and therefore Mary would have been acting perfectly reasonably to abort Him due to the clear danger she would have been putting herself in, both psychologically and physically, if she had went on to carry her baby to full term.