Jesus the liar?

[Cachonga]

coolduude, it sounds to me like your main struggle is in believe that God would become a man in the first place. I think you believe God is truthful in everything He says, and so Jesus must be truthful as well (if He is, indeed, God incarnate). I would suggest a study of the Old Testament to find the prophecies of the coming Messiah, then examine the Gosples to see how Jesus fulfilled these prophecies (this was how the early Church proved that Jesus was the Messiah). The previous links I gave give some very good OT references (and a few NT references as well).

I would suggest you be careful about “asking Jesus”, as the devil is a deciever and could lead you astray (just ask a Mormon how they know the Book of Mormon is scripture). That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pray for God to reveal His truth, just be careful and have a reliable way to test the answer you get (for myself, I have found the Scriptures to be very reliable).

NeedImprovement, I accept your apology, and have sent a PM with more info (since it’s not related to the topic). I will say that I understand human nature, and that someone may want to “look around” the site to see what else is there. That’s why I gave the warning that it was known as an “anti-Catholic” site. At least that way there should be no real surprises when they encounter some things. (BTW - excellent Scripture references in you last couple of postings ).

 

[lax16]

coolduude -

Have you read St. Athanasius On the Incarnation? He addresses much of this in his book.

Let’s think about who have been famous pathological liars in history and what was their motive? Can anyone name a few? (Hitler comes to mind…)

Did anyone lie knowing that they were going to be killed for it?
Did anyone use a pacifist’ tone in their speaking?
Did they promote love of neighbor and enemy?
Were they conformists towards government and God’s law?
Were they selfless in their pursuits?
Did any of the liars have a message that included all people and was for the betterment of society?

You said you didn’t understand my reason for asking these questions. It was in response to the motives of a pathological liar that you said you were reading about. Usually, a liar has a motive.
Did Jesus have a motive? What would He get from lying?

If Jesus doesn’t fit the profile of a liar (and you have to think about liars in history or in your personal life) then He is not a liar.

I know I’ve said this twice before but you should read St. Athanasius on The Incarnation - he addresses this very issue.

If you are not willing to read the great minds of the Church who have attempted to explain such things, and choose to read more of the negative, the negative will win.

 

[abucs]

a couple of things Coolduude.

First, the Gospels are in no way an indication that Jesus is a liar.
Just in the same way the Gettysburg address is not an indication that Abraham Lincoln is lying. You may wonder if he is lying, just like you may wonder if Jesus is lying, but it is not an indication. So we are back where we started, there is no evidence for Jesus being a pathological liar.

You play Devil’s advocate to imagine that Jesus is claiming to be God because - well he might just get a kick out of it.

Well, if the Gospels are the source - what do they say ?
They show a Jesus who very often cautions people against spreading the news that He is the Son of God, that is, that He is the incarnation of God. So we have someone who gets a kick out of being thought of as God but who tries to play this down. That doesn’t fit the imaginary hypothesis.

Secondly, to claim you are God in 1st century Israel is to get the exact opposite effect to what you imagine. It is to be ridiculed, beaten, outcast and humiliatingly killed. That doesn’t fit either Coolduude.

 

[DPMartin]

Ok. I’ll try it. I’m sorry if I frustrated you; it sounded like I did

coolduude
thanks for the reply

I apologize if it seems that way, but in truth you state you are Catholic and are proud of it. Therefore it would seem that you should already know that you can come to the Lord Jesus on any issue that troubles you.

There is nothing under the sun that Lord our God can not address and give answer to, resolve.

Though there are many sermons and teachings about Peter’s walk on the water, this is one that may assist you. Note Peter says Mt:14:28: And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

So is Peter’s faith for walking on water? Or is it Peter’s Faith to be in Jesus, that to come to Him, no matter the circumstance, that in doing so, it would be well with Peter?

You must trust that it will be well with you to come to the Lord Jesus on any honest matter, even your own lack of Trust in Him. Don’t try, just do it.

For trust comes from God who has given us the ability to do the same. Doesn’t the Father intrust all that He has made in the Hand of His only begotten Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Then there is no reason to not Trust Jesus.

Therefore to come to Him continually, He will give you what you need for only of Him can you receive it.

Prov:8:17: I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

 

[redhen]

A pathological liar tells many lies to many different people and has a self centred nature.Can you name me anyone, friend or foe who says that Jesus was a pathological liar in the 1st century or self centred ?

How 'bout the 1st century Jews who believed Jesus was mad, or a liar, and had him condemned?

There’s been many religious people who did good works, healed the sick, and whose followers died for their faith. I’m thinking along the lines of Jim Jones.

 

[PJM]

=coolduude;6638444]Hi all,

As some of you know, I have really been struggling with the Divinity of Christ. For me, it just seems that God wouldn’t become a man, though I suppose He can if He wants.

Anyway, the liar part of C.S. Lewis’ Trilemma argument seems to be my biggest hurdle. I am having the hardest time trying to understand why Jesus was truthful.

I found this:

"Why Jesus can’t be a liar:

A). It does not fit Jesus’ identity – anyone who has ever read the bible would have to conclude that Jesus possesses traits that are diametrically opposed to that of a liar. He cared for the oppressed, healed the sick, showed compassion to people, selfless, corrected others and showed them the truth. No person at that time even the religious authorities, withstand to the challenge of Jesus to falsify His testimonies (cf. John 18:23)."
(tridentinecatholic.blogspot.com/2008/01/who-is-jesus-christ-proving-divinity-of.html)

But here’s the problem: I’ve known liars who have done good works on ocassion. So it’s hard for me to combine words and actions. In my head, I’m thinking ‘Sure, Jesus preached that stuff. And he healed people, etc. But He could still be a liar’ I just can’t make the connection and put it all together. Does this make sense?

Thank you!
Coolduude

Friend know that a lack of Faith Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” and Understanding are “peas in the same pod.” And the both Orginate from God.

God can briefly be defined as “all and every good thing perfected.” Lying is not a “good thing” therefore God is incapable of lying.

In order to assit and direct you I need further information.

Do you beleive in God?

Do you beleive in the Trinity?

What is your understanding of the Bible?

What sort of evidence would you find conviencing?

Please answer these questions for me, and then I will, with God’s help, do what I can to assist you.

Love and prayers, from a Brother in Christ,
Pat

 

[GaryTaylor]

Thank you!
Coolduude

Friend know that a lack of Faith [Heb.11: 1 “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” and Understanding are “peas in the same pod.” And the both Orginate from God.

God can briefly be defined as “all and every good thing perfected.” Lying is not a “good thing” therefore God is incapable of lying.

In order to assit and direct you I need further information.

Do you beleive in God?

Do you beleive in the Trinity?

What is your understanding of the Bible?

What sort of evidence would you find conviencing?

Please answer these questions for me, and then I will, with God’s help, do what I can to assist you.

Love and prayers, from a Brother in Christ,
Pat
[/QUOTE]

Wow you took a couple thought right out of my head and expanded on others, But I agree. The first truth that has to be understood. God cannot tell a lie. Thus what he tells us must be true.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Thanks for the responses everyone. I’m still in despair though

Anyway, I was reading up on pathological liars. They basically make stuff up just to do it and create other identities for themselves. To me, Jesus sounded like He could have been a pathological liar just saying what I think

I hope no one takes this as blasphemy; I’m just trying to rule everything out so I can believe in Jesus.

O.K. This you need to explain more fully: “To me, Jeus sounded like He could have been a pathological liar”. Please provide the evidence through scripture passages–where you believe Jesus to be lying–I assume you must see lies in many passages?. Can you cite evidence of Jesus multiple identities? Lay out the case for why he sounds like a pathological liar to you–obviously I don’t see it and I am sure I am not alone. It is hard to respond to a blanket statement like you posted without knowing what it is based on.

Peace,
Mark

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I’ll play devil’s advocate:

The motive would be prestige: “I’m God, worship me and obey me”
The evidence would be the Gospels; they recorded Jesus’ life.

I’m uncertain as to why you are claiming to be Catholic
Do you go to Mass and pray the Nicene Creed each Sunday?
Do you worship the Trinity every Sunday?
Or are you just being a hypocrite and going through the motions?

 

[coolduude]

I’m uncertain as to why you are claiming to be Catholic
Do you go to Mass and pray the Nicene Creed each Sunday?
Do you worship the Trinity every Sunday?
Or are you just being a hypocrite and going through the motions?

Sorry to offend?

I’m just struggling right now. And yes, I consider myself Catholic. I go to Mass as much as I can, I worship the Trinity, etc.

Is it not normal to question my faith in search of the Truth?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Sorry to offend?

I’m just struggling right now. And yes, I consider myself Catholic. I go to Mass as much as I can, I worship the Trinity, etc.

Is it not normal to question my faith in search of the Truth?

I think you are going a little too far accusing Jesus as being a pathological liar.
It’s okay to have some doubt, but honestly, have your read the Gospel of John? To me it just rings with truth.

I think you need to pray for faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Children have faith, and are often used as examples of faith. LUKE 18:17 “Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

 

[abucs]

Coolduude,

it is absolutely correct that you should question your own faith. But the questions must be built on something. For someone to be a pathological liar, there must be evidence for this.

If we say Adolph Hitler or George Washington were pathological liars then we’d have to have evidence of many things that they said while knowing it was not true.

Redhen,

The Sanhedrin (or part there of) got Jesus executed because of his "blasphemy’, so yes, because they did not see Him as the incarnation of God they thought He was lying on this issue.

What i am asking for is not a disagreement on an issue which makes one a liar or not, but that Jesus was regarded as a liar in the sense that we can then call Him a pathological liar.

Obviously if you do not agree with Christianity you think it is not true and thus Jesus was lying. As Coolduude notes from Newman; that Jesus was a liar is one of the possibilities.

What Coolduude is asking is “was Jesus a pathological liar so that we should also then distrust His claim to Divinity”. In order to build the case we can’t go back to the claim of Divinity and say - here is the evidence of His lying.

If someone was a pathological liar and had many enemies, as Jesus did, then there should be good documentation from those sources claiming a string of lies to show this. (not Theological disagreements or misunderstandings)

 

[redhen]

Redhen,

What Coolduude is asking is “was Jesus a pathological liar so that we should also then distrust His claim to Divinity”. In order to build the case we can’t go back to the claim of Divinity and say - here is the evidence of His lying.

If someone was a pathological liar and had many enemies, as Jesus did, then there should be good documentation from those sources claiming a string of lies to show this. (not Theological disagreements or misunderstandings)

How do we know what Jesus actually said? Who recorded, verbatim, the dialogue between Jesus and Pilate? Who recorded the dialogue between Jesus and Satan in the wilderness? I don’t want to hijack this thread and turn it into a textual criticism debate, I just wanted to offer this as one more argument.

Another might be that Jesus did not lie, but was simply mistaken or self-deluded. This happens all the time.

 

[cranster]

Cooldude you seem to be talking yourself out of your faith. What precipitated this? what was your thought process in thinking Jesus was a liar? I’ve struggled with my faith before, but I’ve never questioned whether Jesus was telling the truth or not. Either He was or He wasn’t telling the truth. I don’t see any evidence that He was lying, and to the contrary that He was telling the truth, and backed it up by the many miracles He performed, and rising from the dead. No one can rise from the dead but God. The weight of testimony from the martyrs, the growth of the Church, and the many miracles over the centuries support His claim to truth and divinity. If He was lying it would be a much different world today because He would have faded into obscurity, and been virtually unknown today if He was a liar. He would have been found out long ago to be a charlatan and faded into history with all the rest of the would be Messiahs. I don’t know about you, but I can easily spot a pathological liar. Do you really think the people around Him were less able than you and I to spot a liar? The movement of the Church would have stopped dead in it’s tracks if He was.

It is precisely because He WAS telling the truth that His Church is what it is today.

Like Peter said to Jesus,“To whom else would we turn, you have the words of eternal life”.

 

[bengland]

Have you checked any of the Catholic philosophers?

Here’s a work by St Anselm fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anselm-curdeus.html

 

[coolduude]

Hey guys,

I apologize that I haven’t been able to respond to everything. I’ve been very busy with school and life in general.

Anyway, I must apologize again because I can’t answer really anything right now but I have yet another question

I read Wikipedia’s version of the Trilemma. It concludes with something like this: ‘If not God, Jesus is immoral’. However, we all know Jesus was a moral person. Therefore, He is God.

This is my question:
How do we know Jesus was moral even in things not recorded in the Bible? Obviously He’s 100% moral in the Gospels, but if Jesus did acts which are not recorded (which He probably did do) how do we know those acts as well are moral?
Secondly, how can we tell Jesus’ thoughts were moral? He condemened lust in the heart, but how can we know He never did it Himself?

Again, I’m sorry I can’t answer anyone else. I’m pressed for time right now

Thank you everyone for the help thusfar. It’s really been great

 

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[cranster]

cooldude it seems you’re not considering what others are saying to you. You are adding doubt on doubt. It appears you are not using reasoned thinking in your mounting doubts. There is nothing in history to support that Jesus was a liar, or gave into temptation of any kind. He did experience temptation, but unlike you and I He never gave into those temptations because He was sinless. If God could sin then He would not be God. I think you are on the fast track to the hopeless state of atheism.

My prayers are with you my friend.

 

[NeedImprovement]

…
I read Wikipedia’s version of the Trilemma. It concludes with something like this: ‘If not God, Jesus is immoral’. However, we all know Jesus was a moral person. Therefore, He is God.
…

Please correct me if I’m wrong cooldude , but it appears you mean that this - rephrased would say: Prove Jesus was always a moral person, and you will be able to prove He is God.
… Did I get it right ?

I think you’re at least half-way there. You’re admitting Jesus is fully human if you’re wondering about moments in his earthly life which were not recorded in the Gospel. So then it would seem to make sense that, if he were only a man , no matter how “good” he looked in public life, we would need to admit the presence of character/moral flaws somewhere else in his life due to his human nature.

The first difference is that Jesus’ human nature was not a fallen human nature like ours… he was a man in every way but sin. If he had moral flaws, well,… we’re basically calling him a sinner- which fits right in there with “liar” - doesn’t it ?

:doh2:

You might want to try looking at it purely from the perspective of the miracles Jesus performed. I remember doing that , in a particular period of doubt some time ago, and I kept getting brought back to the raising of Lazarus from the dead [John 11:1-45 ]. Finally, I said to myself, " If He can raise me from the dead… that’s good enough for me."

That advice (focusing on the miracles Jesus performed when we are in doubt) comes highly recommended :

John 10: 36-38

"…Can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

If I do not perform my Father’s works, do not believe me;

but if I perform them, even if you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may realize (and understand) that the Father is in me and I am in the Father."

Of course, if you prefer the approach which doesn’t require you to be constantly thinking so intensely that smoke starts coming out of your ears , a nice little short cut through it all can be found in cranster’s siggy in the previous post : Praying the Rosary daily will carry anyone through just about anything . Personally, I lean quite heavily on our Blessed Mother’s help .

 

[abucs]

How do we know what Jesus actually said? Who recorded, verbatim, the dialogue between Jesus and Pilate? Who recorded the dialogue between Jesus and Satan in the wilderness? I don’t want to hijack this thread and turn it into a textual criticism debate, I just wanted to offer this as one more argument.

Another might be that Jesus did not lie, but was simply mistaken or self-deluded. This happens all the time.

Hi Redhen,

with anyone we can ask the question -“how do we know what they said at any particular time”. With people of the past, in an era free of video cameras etc. we can ask this at just about anytime in their lives. But is not this a separate question to whether someone was a pathological liar? We don’t need to know everything they said verbatim at different times to have evidence for pathological liars. If they were a pathological liar, then i am simply asking for some evidence, and with someone so controversial as Jesus, i would expect that evidence to be present from the written or verbal histories of his enemies.

With regard to Jesus being self-deluded or mistaken, yes this is another possibility, but of course it is a different topic than this thread. (But still a valid question).