Jesus, the Vatican, and gay marriage rights

[Slaney]

In a way, gays have shown more love to me than Catholics. Gays have offered me jobs and friendships, invited me into their homes, played classical piano for me, and welcomed me to xenophobic Kansas. I go to a parish, and does anyone bother to say hi to me, chat it up, and make me feel welcome (besides “peace to you”)?

Satan gave Eve the apple, " you will not die " YES WE WILL DIE, YOU and I and everybody on this forum is GOING TO DIE ! gays gave you this and that, satan will give you anything as -long as he removes you from God…

 

[CopticChristian]

The Gospel is that God created the world to have humans abide with Him, but humans sinned and turned against him, but God sent His Son Jesus Christ to come down to the world, and whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life in heaven, abiding with Him. Believing in Him consists of following His teachings, which are laid out in the Bible (and perhaps Holy Tradition, but that’s the essence of the Catholic-Protestant debate).

His teachings can be summarized in two commandments: Love your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. (The latter is relevant to this thread.)

.

Lobo,

For the Christian, there are no rights with God, because a Christian surrenders his will to God’s will, and it may be God’s will that the Christian gets incredible blessing, or faces tragic loss, even loss of life. When you’re a Christian, nothing is about you

Wow, what a God…He creates you, gives you free will and than asks you to consider doing His will and then you are really free…what a right, what a privelege…and then to be considered a child of God…what a right what a privelege…

There is more than just believing, it is following and in following leading…and letting others know that they are leading some astray…

 

[CopticChristian]

Once again, I’m not saying that the Church should stop preaching that gay sex is a sin. What I’m saying is, it is uncompassionate, and hateful, for the Church to stand against what is a secular civil rights issue for gay people. It will NOT help the Church make disciples among the gays to be obstinately against their civil rights.

Wrong again. The decline of marriage is due to the economic barriers to having marriage, the increased time for young people to be economically stable, and the fact that it is no longer an economic advantage to marry–it is possible to have a lot of money and be single.

And “be fruitful and multiply” is not a command, but a blessing:
christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/november12/4.58.html

Lobo,

I don’t see why a right has to be “intrinsic” to you to be valid. What’s so difficult to understand? We now know, scientifically (despite CopticChristian’s opposition), that it is normal and natural for 2-5% of the population to be gay. Therefore, for the benefit and furthering of society, they should have the equal right to form intimate partnerships and raise families with those of the same sex, because that is the way God created them.

There is nothing natural about homosexual behavior. There is no scientific proof for Essentialism. Homosexuals argue back and forth about Essentialism and Social Constructionism and that is not the way God created them, unless you speak to God and He told you.

Wrong. I read the article you posted. The definition of marriage really has evolved. If we want “traditional marriage”, why don’t we go back to polygamy and treating women as property?

You believe that the definition of marriage has evolved but that does not equate to the definition of marriage has evolved. It just means you believe this to be true.

Also don’t trivialize gay relationships. The love among gays can be genuine and lasting, and stable enough for raising children.

So then this demands that you define love to a Catholic audience that does not accept burning desires, sexually indecent acts that lead to pleasure or any other such thing.

In a way, gays have shown more love to me than Catholics. Gays have offered me jobs and friendships, invited me into their homes, played classical piano for me, and welcomed me to xenophobic Kansas. I go to a parish, and does anyone bother to say hi to me, chat it up, and make me feel welcome (besides “peace to you”)?

Then why are you on this thread. You don’t feel the love, leave.

So what if public education changes? Once again, we now know, scientifically, that it is normal and natural for 2-5% of the population to be gay. Therefore, for the benefit and furthering of society, they should have the equal right to form intimate partnerships and raise families with those of the same sex, because that is the way God created them.

If this is what you believe then we need to educate the public that there is nothing normal or natural about being gay and there is no scientific proof that supports this notion.

Procreation USED to be the main reason for civil marriage. But we now know that children are an economic burden according to Wikipedia. Easily six figures to raise a child. We also know that the world is overpopulated and economic resources are being depleted, and the population is still growing in developing countries. We’re not exactly in need of more procreation in today’s world.

Absent Wikipedia may we look for information that might be more credible to support your point of view.

 

[CopticChristian]

His teachings can be summarized in two commandments: Love your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and love your neighbor as yourself. (The latter is relevant to this thread.)

For the Christian, there are no rights with God, because a Christian surrenders his will to God’s will, and it may be God’s will that the Christian gets incredible blessing, or faces tragic loss, even loss of life. When you’re a Christian, nothing is about you.

Lobo,

The Gospel is that God created the world to have humans abide with Him, but humans sinned and turned against him, but God sent His Son Jesus Christ to come down to the world, and whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life in heaven, abiding with Him. Believing in Him consists of following His teachings, which are laid out in the Bible (and perhaps Holy Tradition, but that’s the essence of the Catholic-Protestant debate).

Your monikor says “Christian Seeker”…so what is it you are seeking?

In the context of this answer you are neither Protestant nor Catholic.

So, do you believe the Bible to be the word of God?

 

[Slavonic]

Your question doesn’t have an answer for the simple fact that it has not been decided yet. Legally speaking there is a big question as to whether Congress had the power to enact DOMA. The federal government is a government of limited powers that cannot enact laws beyond what has been expressly granted in the constitution so there is a big probability that the Court may find that enacting DOMA was beyond congress powers. In that case, then there would be no right for the federal government to treat marriages differently so the feds would have either to eliminate all benefits for any kind of marriage, so nobody gets nothing or then provide them according to State law. However, of the court finds that congress had power and my guess is that the only avenue they can use (because that has been their war horse lately) is taxes. feds have very broad powers over taxes so yes under taxes they can treat people differently because of their tax power. But again, this is just speculation and you will have to wait until the court’s decision to get an answer

True there is a lot going on the case, and it’s not going establish same-sex marriages across the country. However, lower courts have ruled the particular section of DOMA that applies in this case unconstitutional. Along with the DOMA issues the Supreme Court is concerned with whether or not the group defending DOMA’s constitutionality has standing. The Justice’s questioned why they should hear the case when the Department of Justice has not stepped in to oppose the lower courts’ rulings.

 

[CopticChristian]

True there is a lot going on the case, and it’s not going establish same-sex marriages across the country. However, lower courts have ruled the particular section of DOMA that applies in this case unconstitutional. Along with the DOMA issues the Supreme Court is concerned with whether or not the group defending DOMA’s constitutionality has standing. The Justice’s questioned why they should hear the case when the Department of Justice has not stepped in to oppose the lower courts’ rulings.

Slavonic,

And we won’t know what they decide until June…

 

[marymary1975]

True there is a lot going on the case, and it’s not going establish same-sex marriages across the country. However, lower courts have ruled the particular section of DOMA that applies in this case unconstitutional. Along with the DOMA issues the Supreme Court is concerned with whether or not the group defending DOMA’s constitutionality has standing. The Justice’s questioned why they should hear the case when the Department of Justice has not stepped in to oppose the lower courts’ rulings.

It is true, the standing is another big issue and we just have no idea how the Court IS going to rule and especially after Obamacare, this is pretty much expect the unexpected.

 

[Slavonic]

It is true, the standing is another big issue and we just have no idea how the Court IS going to rule and especially after Obamacare, this is pretty much expect the unexpected.

Ain’t that the truth.

 

[90Domer]

Marriage is NOT a civil right. It is a religious sacrament. It is an institution of religion, always has been and always will be because God himself instituted it at creation. You keep trying to separate marriage from it’s religious context which is like trying to separate a bar-mitzvah from a religious context.

I agree. And I ask this again. How is this a civil rights issue when everyone in this country is allowed to marry exactly one person of the opposite sex? Just because someone doesn’t like that option does not make that a civil rights violation. Nothing is being violated.

 

[JimG]

Procreation USED to be the main reason for civil marriage. But we now know that children are an economic burden according to Wikipedia. Easily six figures to raise a child. We also know that the world is overpopulated and economic resources are being depleted, and the population is still growing in developing countries. We’re not exactly in need of more procreation in today’s world.

Actually procreation is very much needed. All of Europe and probably America as well is headed for demographic disaster due to declining fertility rates. They cannot reproduce their current population, as their fertility rates are below replacement level.

That will lead to economic stagnation, increasing national debt, an aging population, not enough young workers to support the social benefit systems, and ultimately a declining population spiral which will be the biggest problem in the near future.

The demographic decline hits at a very bad time, corresponding with huge debt among many nations.

 

[JimG]

Here is Jesus preaching:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna.”

If it causes you to sin, tear out your eye; if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away.

This does not sound like the essence of compassion. He didn’t confirm anyone in their sin out of compassion. It is sheer silliness to think that he would have gladly countenanced homosexual behavior or said anything like, ‘oh, if it makes you happy, go ahead and do it.’ He didn’t tell the woman caught in adultery, “oh, but it makes her happy, and I have compassion for her, so let her continue in her sin”

Let’s face it. Jesus did not countenance moral evil. He did not countenance it because he loves those he came to save. He did not and does not wish to lose them.

 

[livingwordunity]

Yes I can imagine Jesus treating gays with compassion but being steadfast in God’s plan for marriage existing between a man and a woman. Just as I can see Jesus having compassion for the prostitute while not condoning prostitution. Just because a state says you have a right in the eyes of the state, that doesn’t mean you have the same right in the eyes of God.

Yep. Prostitution is legal in some states, and slave ownership used to be called a right in the United States which goes to show that the laws of government aren’t always motivated by morality.

 

[CaliLobo]

I don’t understand all of your stubbornness on this issue. All I can say is that someday, gay marriage will be recognized in all 50 US states and all of the developed world. And that day, children will go to school and be horrified and disdainful at why people in 2013 would deny equal civil rights to gay people. Much like how we have disdain for Americans before the Civil War who denied equal rights to blacks.

And for the record, Coptic, I am a Protestant. Like I said before, Protestants know how to make Christianity relevant in today’s world that wishes gays and straights to coexist equally and peacefully. That is why, among other reasons, Protestantism is growing in the West, and Catholicism is shrinking.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t understand all of your stubbornness on this issue. All I can say is that someday, gay marriage will be recognized in all 50 US states and all of the developed world. And that day, children will go to school and be horrified and disdainful at why people in 2013 would deny equal civil rights to gay people. Much like how we have disdain for Americans before the Civil War who denied equal rights to blacks.

Lobo,

People are born black. No one is born homosexual.

You will be horrified to know that at least every child in my family is being taught that they should speak to those that are horrified and tell them the truth.

People are born male and female. Homosexuality is behavior. No one is born Homosexual. Homosexuals should not get married. I will prepare them to educate the horrified.

I am horrified that you cannot answer a question posed earlier…

Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God…

By the way, stubborness is believing that what you believe is true knowing that it is not and has no basis in reality other than in the mind of those that believe what is not true.

 

[90Domer]

I think few people would agree with that - that is not a relationship where mature consent can be given - it’s clearly an abuse of trust.

If the argument against gay marriage hangs on drawing a parallel with pedophilia then I think there can’t be a very strong argument, as it’s clearly a forced association. A better parallel, I believe, would be whether marriage could, as in Old Testament times, involve more than two partners, all of whom consent and all of whom have the maturity to give trustworthy consent.

I can see the bar getting lowered or parents signing off on consent forms allowing this to happen. Heck, there are many parents already who are affirming their child’s sexuality at age 7-8. What would stop them from allowing their child this form of “mentoring”?

Also, what would stop some parents who are tired of parenting, don’t want to,pay college bills, etc. from turning their kid over to a “Sugar Daddy.” This way be the answer to their problems.

 

[livingwordunity]

I don’t understand all of your stubbornness on this issue. All I can say is that someday, gay marriage will be recognized in all 50 US states and all of the developed world. And that day, children will go to school and be horrified and disdainful at why people in 2013 would deny equal civil rights to gay people. Much like how we have disdain for Americans before the Civil War who denied equal rights to blacks.

And for the record, Coptic, I am a Protestant. Like I said before, Protestants know how to make Christianity relevant in today’s world that wishes gays and straights to coexist equally and peacefully. That is why, among other reasons, Protestantism is growing in the West, and Catholicism is shrinking.

You appear to be just as stubborn as us except that you are following the way of the world. Christianity was never meant to be a popularity contest. If Jesus would have wanted same-sex “marriage” he wouldn’t have told us that marriage is Adam and Eve. We Catholics believe the teachings that Christ handed to his apostles - no more, and no less. If you are going to accuse us of being ignorant or bigots you’ll also be accusing Christ of the same since we got our teachings from him. The ones who you falsely accuse should rejoice since Jesus saw this coming when he said, “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.” - Matthew 5:11-12

 

[chrisb]

I don’t understand all of your stubbornness on this issue. All I can say is that someday, gay marriage will be recognized in all 50 US states and all of the developed world. And that day, children will go to school and be horrified and disdainful at why people in 2013 would deny equal civil rights to gay people. Much like how we have disdain for Americans before the Civil War who denied equal rights to blacks.

Christ is Risen!

Christians would appear to be stubborn because they believe the misuse of the sexual act is a sin against nature and against God which cries out for punishment not only against the individual who commits the act but those who are an accessory in the act:

1. By counsel
2. By command
3. By consent
4. By provocation
5. By praise or flattery
6. By concealment
7. By partaking
8. By silence
9. By defense of the ill done

5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are particularly dangerous in our society.

I can understand the offense that some take against the position but we aren’t in a position to accept sin regardless of what the masses desire. If it’s ‘wrong’, it’s wrong. Numbers don’t change that.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t understand all of your stubbornness on this issue. All I can say is that someday, gay marriage will be recognized in all 50 US states and all of the developed world. And that day, children will go to school and be horrified and disdainful at why people in 2013 would deny equal civil rights to gay people. Much like how we have disdain for Americans before the Civil War who denied equal rights to blacks.

.

Lobo,

And for the record, Coptic, I am a Protestant. Like I said before, Protestants know how to make Christianity relevant in today’s world that wishes gays and straights to coexist equally and peacefully. That is why, among other reasons, Protestantism is growing in the West, and Catholicism is shrinking

Here you have more misinformation. Protestants are dividing among themselves and Homosexuality is one of the forces dividing it…you can follow this thread and see the facts…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766675

**Wrongly Dividing the Body of Christ **

Protestants are no longer the dominant group in the USA…you can see the facts on this thread here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=670759

**Protestants down to 52% from 60%…Hike… **

I believe you would do well to rethink your beliefs and support them with facts…I don’t see much of what you say as being anything close to true…

 

[CaliLobo]

Lobo,

Here you have more misinformation. Protestants are dividing among themselves and Homosexuality is one of the forces dividing it…you can follow this thread and see the facts…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=766675

**Wrongly Dividing the Body of Christ **

Protestants are no longer the dominant group in the USA…you can see the facts on this thread here…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=670759

**Protestants down to 52% from 60%…Hike… **

I believe you would do well to rethink your beliefs and support them with facts…I don’t see much of what you say as being anything close to true…

Yes of course, church attendance is declining in almost all denominations in the West. However, on a comparative basis, Protestantism is growing vis-a-vis the Catholic Church, in the West. And in Europe, despite all the Catholic talk about the New Evangelization, most of the missions efforts are done by Protestants.

Anyone who’s traveled to Europe sees how dead parishes are. In contrast, a great example of Protestant missions in Europe is Hillsong Ukraine in Kiev… they have beautiful Ukrainian versions of their own proprietary praise music (which almost all Evangelical churches use today) on Youtube.

Also, the only reason the CC is still growing in the USA is due to Hispanic immigration. But even among Hispanics, the college-educated fall away, as they realize how the Jesuits in the New World enslaved Native Americans, and how Catholic teachings on contraception have oppressed Hispanic women and contributed to the cycle of poverty. Not to mention, they are a racial minority too, so they increasingly support the rights of the gay minority.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes of course, church attendance is declining in almost all denominations in the West. However, on a comparative basis, Protestantism is growing vis-a-vis the Catholic Church, in the West. And in Europe, despite all the Catholic talk about the New Evangelization, most of the missions efforts are done by Protestants.

Anyone who’s traveled to Europe sees how dead parishes are. In contrast, a great example of Protestant missions in Europe is Hillsong Ukraine in Kiev… they have beautiful Ukrainian versions of their own proprietary praise music (which almost all Evangelical churches use today) on Youtube.

Also, the only reason the CC is still growing in the USA is due to Hispanic immigration. But even among Hispanics, the college-educated fall away, as they realize how the Jesuits in the New World enslaved Native Americans, and how Catholic teachings on contraception have oppressed Hispanic women and contributed to the cycle of poverty. Not to mention, they are a racial minority too, so they increasingly support the rights of the gay minority.

Lobo,

You are the font of unknowledge…you again provide misinformation and only opinion…If you or any lurkers go to this website…adherents you will find…

adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Christianity = 33% world religions

Christianity = 2.1 billion

adherents.com/adh_rb.html

Religious Body Number of Adherents
Catholic Church** 1,100,000,000
Sunni Islam* 1,000,000,000
Eastern Orthodox Church 225,000,000

Notice that when you combine the Catholic Church, Islam and Eastern Orthodox that equates to 2.25 Billion and when considering the Catholic/Orthodox that is 1 million 325 thousand adherents…then notice Protestant groups…

The next largest Protestant group = 77,000,000 and the Anglicans are being decimated by Homosexuality, women priests and other issues causing division…

Assemblies of God = 55,000,000 and unless you belong to one of these groups then you do not belong to a majority Christian group

So concerning what you believe to be a dwindling group you are again mistaken and are providing opinion and not accurate information as has been the case in all your posts.