Jesus told us to be pacifists

[Mark77]

**I agree that we are called by Jesus to be pacifists! We are called to love, serve & forgive, just as Jesus did! Having served on active duty in the Army for many years, i know the evil of war & violence more than most.
**
My personal understanding is that we are to “turn the other cheek” as Jesus taught us when we are attacked individually, even to the point of dying a martyr’s death.

Just be very careful when you single out a passage from Sacred Scripture to make a point, that is why we need the Church to guide us! Jesus also said; "“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword!” If you take that out of context, we should all carry swords?

We are also called to defend the innocent from harm caused by evil. Using force to defend the innocent is not acceptable, except as an absolute last resort when all else has failed!

The “just war” doctrine is described by the Church in the Catechism below;

"CCC 2308 **All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
**
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”

CCC 2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

**- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.**

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[chessmane4e5]

AMEN Mark77.

Thank you for your service in protecting the lives of innocent people everywhere.

 

[chessmane4e5]

The World needs laws, and law enforcers. Christians are not of the word. Christians are in the world but not part of the world.

I don’t really understand what this means. Let’s try and clarify what kind of pacifist you are.

If you were standing in a parking lot, and a car was speeding towards, and it looked like they were going to hit you, would you stand there or would you jump out of the way?

I am thinking you will jump out of the way.

Let go deeper. You are being approached by a man with a knife, you are trapped in a corner, so running is not an option. Would you just let him stab you, or would you at least raise your arms in defense?

Not sure how you will answer, but how about this.

You hear a woman in an alley screaming for help. You run to the alley and see a man attacking her. Would you just stand and watch, or you would rush to her aid. Maybe push the man aside and at least place yourself in between this woman and the attacker.

What if you then knew this attacker was going to kill you and continue his assault on the woman? Would you let him?

I really do want to understand how you would handle these (or any other) situation.

 

[JimG]

Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.” Luke 3:14.

Now, soldiers are not and cannot be pacifists. Jesus did not tell them to quit the army, but to be content with their pay, to not extort money, to not accuse falsely. If Jesus had embraced pacifism, soldiers could not be his followers without renouncing their occupation. He didn’t ask them to do that.

 

[torch621]

Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.” Luke 3:14.

Now, soldiers are not and cannot be pacifists. Jesus did not tell them to quit the army, but to be content with their pay, to not extort money, to not accuse falsely. If Jesus had embraced pacifism, soldiers could not be his followers without renouncing their occupation. He didn’t ask them to do that.

That was actually John the Baptist who said that, but I think the principle is the same.

 

[JimG]

That was actually John the Baptist who said that, but I think the principle is the same.

Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[ryanoneil]

The reason Jesus rebukes Peter for responding with violence, because that would have frustrated the Father’s plan.

Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels? But then how would the scriptures be fulfilled which say that it must come to pass in this way?" (Mt 26:53-54)

Mt 5 is about avoiding vengeance. Obviously peacemaking is part of the Christian mission, but sometimes peace is not possible.

 

[EnterCanaan]

“Sword” in the Bible: Ephesians 6:17
The Word of God is described in a number of places as a sword–hard-hitting and effective, capable of piercing even the most resolute mental and spiritual defenses with its simple truth. If we’re armed with God’s Word, we have no need of any other “weapons”–it is our most effective tool against unbelief.

Revelation 1:16
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

This is speaking of Christ, and out of His mouth went a two edged sword. The two edged sword would be the Word of God, the bringer of life unto life and death unto death. The word of God is the law and breaking the law results in judgment, the sword is the bringer of life unto life for those who obey and become spiritual, and death unto death for those who dont trust and become spiritually dead. Thats the sword

Revelation 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

This is speaking of Christ, His word is the Sword. The word of God is the sword in question, the bringer of life unto life and death unto death.

Revelation 6:4
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

This is speaking of Satan, who is the rider on the red horse, who is given the sword of God by God’s own authority, to decieve men in the word. The sword in question would be the word of God, the gospel of God, however in this case it is held by Satan which represents the watered down word of God, the distorted word of God, the word of God that is not the word of God but that of Satans, which looks like the word of God because Satan comes as an angle of light ot decieve.

Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This is speaking of Death, or more accurately, Sin which is the cause of spiritual death.
In this case Death holds the sword, which is the word of God, however in this case the sword is the bringer of death unto death, meaning, IT IS JUDGMENT. The perfect judgment for breaking Gods perfect law, is Death, The death which the sword brings is complete spiritual death, this is not talking about anything except spiritual death.

Always remember everthing is spiritual, either points to Christ as the Savior spiritually, or Death through sin Spritiually.

The Sword is the Word of God, that is the Bible.

2 Corinthians 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

This is what the word of God is. A bringer of life unto life, that is spiritual life by way of obeying Gods law the bible, or Death unto death, that is spiritual death, by way of not trusting in the bible.

That is what the sword is, that is the context of the sword. Christ was not a Pacifist. He taught to turn the other cheek to YOUR OWN attacker, yet you are dutifully bound to protect the innocent as a child of God, especailly your own family or the innocent. You are bound to step in into the fray.

 

[Thankful10]

That was actually John the Baptist who said that, but I think the principle is the same.

John the Baptist was still under the Old Law. John hadn’t been taught by Jesus, and was not even a disciple of Jesus.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” Jesus said this, so you all think he was just joking? We are supposed to be slaves of God. Slaves do as they are told or are punished.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

How much interpretation does it take to understand this: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Do you really think when you have to justify yourself to Jesus that the excuse: “But the Church said so” will really be acceptable? Jesus gave you his written Word, and his Holy Spirit to teach you, and you think because you didn’t take advantage of either your excuse will be acceptable?

And when He says, “Why did you not heed My Church on earth?” Your reply will be…?

None of us knows what will happen to us at the moment of particular judgment. I can only throw myself upon His mercy.

We are not Quakers nor Communists. We are Catholics. There are differences. Please note them.

 

[Thankful10]

I don’t really understand what this means. Let’s try and clarify what kind of pacifist you are.

If you were standing in a parking lot, and a car was speeding towards, and it looked like they were going to hit you, would you stand there or would you jump out of the way?

I am thinking you will jump out of the way.

Let go deeper. You are being approached by a man with a knife, you are trapped in a corner, so running is not an option. Would you just let him stab you, or would you at least raise your arms in defense?

Not sure how you will answer, but how about this.

You hear a woman in an alley screaming for help. You run to the alley and see a man attacking her. Would you just stand and watch, or you would rush to her aid. Maybe push the man aside and at least place yourself in between this woman and the attacker.

What if you then knew this attacker was going to kill you and continue his assault on the woman? Would you let him?

I really do want to understand how you would handle these (or any other) situation.

First before I answer your questions let me say that, in my opinion presenting hypothetical situations is a tool of Satan to put fear into people so they will make up their minds to disobey God. What one needs to realize is that Jesus doesn’t give us the grace to obey him until it is needed.

Now for you questions I would do nothing that would harm another person because I believe Jesus would give me the grace to obey him. You see I love God more then myself or anyone else. Jesus said if you love anyone more than me you are not worthy of me.

To love God is to hear his Word and live that Word.

 

[Thankful10]

**I agree that we are called by Jesus to be pacifists! We are called to love, serve & forgive, just as Jesus did! Having served on active duty in the Army for many years, i know the evil of war & violence more than most.
**
My personal understanding is that we are to “turn the other cheek” as Jesus taught us when we are attacked individually, even to the point of dying a martyr’s death.

Just be very careful when you single out a passage from Sacred Scripture to make a point, that is why we need the Church to guide us! Jesus also said; "“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword!” If you take that out of context, we should all carry swords?

We are also called to defend the innocent from harm caused by evil. Using force to defend the innocent is not acceptable, except as an absolute last resort when all else has failed!
Show us where Jesus ever said we could use violence for any reason?
The “just war” doctrine is described by the Church in the Catechism below;

"CCC 2308 **All citizens and all governments are obliged to work for the avoidance of war.
**
However, “as long as the danger of war persists and there is no international authority with the necessary competence and power, governments cannot be denied the right of lawful self-defense, once all peace efforts have failed.”**Again this is not scripture and is written by man. Jesus said: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” **

CCC 2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

**- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.**

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the “just war” doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good."

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

All denying what Jesus said. The world may follow those rules but Christians do not belong to the world. Christians obey God first not man. if man’s laws go against God’s Word Christians will not obey.

 

[DOShea]

Jesus did not give us the right to kill another human.

Nor was I arguing that He did. You have declared a self-interpreted doctrine of turn the other cheek every time, everywhere, no exceptions. I disagree, I believe there are times when you don’t do that, times such as self-defense and when fighting against evil.

St. Paul’s last words contained the phrase, “I have fought the good fight.” Why did he say that, rather than “I have turned my cheek at every opportunity?” He must have fought against something, and I believe that fight was against evil as he went about saving souls.

A Christian does not have a right to kill period.

Yes, they do. It’s been quoted for you out of the CCC along with the circumstances that justify it. What I think you are confusing “killing” with is “murder.” Nowhere is murder ever sanctioned in the Bible, in fact in every case it is punished. Killing, however, was often justified. Read Maccabees. Read Exodus. Read Revelation - what is the Archangel Michael doing in this book, turning the other angelic cheek or something else?

 

[Thankful10]

Nor was I arguing that He did. You have declared a self-interpreted doctrine of turn the other cheek every time, everywhere, no exceptions. I disagree, I believe there are times when you don’t do that, times such as self-defense and when fighting against evil.**Jesus says offer the wicked man no resistance. What you think has no validity at all. I would think if you needed to defend yourself from someone it most likely would be from a wicked person. **
Jesus did not say unless you or someone else is in trouble.

St. Paul’s last words contained the phrase, “I have fought the good fight.” Why did he say that, rather than “I have turned my cheek at every opportunity?” He must have fought against something, and I believe that fight was against evil as he went about saving souls.
Because Paul’s fight was not against man, but Satan, and it was not a physical fight.

Yes, they do. It’s been quoted for you out of the CCC along with the circumstances that justify it. What I think you are confusing “killing” with is “murder.” Nowhere is murder ever sanctioned in the Bible, in fact in every case it is punished. Killing, however, was often justified. Read Maccabees. Read Exodus. Read Revelation - what is the Archangel Michael doing in this book, turning the other angelic cheek or something else?

You know what I am not confused at all. Have you read what Jesus said?

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Both of these verses say: “You have learnt how it was said” Yes that is what was done before Jesus came to complete the Law. You have quoted Old Testament, and like Paul say what is Old soon fades away.

 

[Mark77]

John the Baptist was still under the Old Law. John hadn’t been taught by Jesus, and was not even a disciple of Jesus.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” Jesus said this, so you all think he was just joking? We are supposed to be slaves of God. Slaves do as they are told or are punished.

**You are wrong, John the Baptist was truly a Disciple of Jesus!
**
**John the Baptist was the first man, Mary was the first of all humans, to be a disciple of Jesus; “And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe (JOHN THE BAPTIST) leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit” (Lk 1:41)
**
John the Baptist knew Jesus was the Lord, our God: "John answered them all, “I baptize you with water; but he who is mightier than I is coming, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” (Lk 3:16)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Mark77]

All denying what Jesus said. The world may follow those rules but Christians do not belong to the world. Christians obey God first not man. if man’s laws go against God’s Word Christians will not obey.

i would never deny what Jesus said! i love Jesus with all my heart & all my soul & all my mind!!

Again, i agree totally that we are called by Jesus to be pacifists, to love & sacrifice all for others!

We are also called by Jesus to not just sit by idly & watch evil harm the innocent among us, but to stand up & to fight against abortion, to fight against evil in all quarters!

**"Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ " (Mt 25:45).

So Jesus tells us that to do nothing to defend the least among us, innocent babies murdered through abortion, mothers who are abused & abandoned, & those who are the weakest among us, is the the same as not defending Him!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!**

mak

 

[ahollars]

First before I answer your questions let me say that, in my opinion presenting hypothetical situations is a tool of Satan to put fear into people so they will make up their minds to disobey God. What one needs to realize is that Jesus doesn’t give us the grace to obey him until it is needed.

Now for you questions I would do nothing that would harm another person because I believe Jesus would give me the grace to obey him. You see I love God more then myself or anyone else. Jesus said if you love anyone more than me you are not worthy of me.

To love God is to hear his Word and live that Word.

Your love for God does not override your responsibility for the people in this world that God has entrusted to your care. Indeed, it is serving Him to protect and defend such people.

If you believe all fighting is immoral, then by definition, you believe all soldiers are immoral. Fear is the true reason that you would refuse to fight. You are incapable of doing so.

Explain Jesus’ words here:

When Jesus had finished saying all this in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” So Jesus went with them.

He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

~Luke 7:1-10~

 

[ryanoneil]

Obviously God desires us to avoid war and conquer evil with good, but nothing in Scripture says that legitimately defending oneself or one’s country which results in the killing of another is an intrinsically evil act. There is a difference between killing and murder!

Matt. 8:5-13
Why did Jesus not consider the centurion (who was a soldier) to be an evil man?
Why did Jesus consider him to be more faithful that anyone else in Isreal?

Luke 14:31
Why did Jesus acknowledge the legitimacy of war?

Luke 19:27
Why does Jesus teach that not all killing is intrinsically evil.

Luke 22:36
Why does Jesus encourage legitimate defense against an aggressor.

Acts 10:2
Why does God respond favorably to the prayers and alms of the soldier Cornelius?

Heb. 11:32-34
Why does Paul praise these men for their faithfull defense of the people of God (using war)?

Rom. 13:3-4
Why does Paul exult and call a man who does not bear the sword in vain “the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer?”

 

[fish90]

John the Baptist was still under the Old Law. John hadn’t been taught by Jesus, and was not even a disciple of Jesus.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” Jesus said this, so you all think he was just joking? We are supposed to be slaves of God. Slaves do as they are told or are punished.

Catholics submit to the teaching of the Magisterium on biblical passages.

The reason why we cannot be pacifists is based on this interpretation and it is also a reason we do not cut off our hands when we sin.

Hope this helps,
fish90

 

[Church_Militant]

John the Baptist was still under the Old Law. John hadn’t been taught by Jesus, and was not even a disciple of Jesus.

That’s kinda odd since they were cousins. [bibledrb]Luke 1:36[/bibledrb]

Not a disciple of Jesus? How do figure that? Luke 1 says, “41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.”

That also tells us that John recognized Our Lord even in the womb. Not a disciple?

Then also we have Luke 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened; 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him; and a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

And even more so John writes in his first chapter, "
26 John answered them, saying: I baptize with water; but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not. 27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose. 28 These things were done in Bethania, beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.
31 And I knew him not, but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him. 33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and I gave testimony, that this is the Son of God. 35 The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples.* 36*** And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God. **37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus."

You are far afield of what the Word of God very plainly tells us.