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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Self-interpretation and holier-than-thou attitudes will gain many converts, I’m sure.
And it’s a good thing you are sinless, else you’d be handless and eyeless.
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And it’s a good thing you are sinless, else you’d be handless and eyeless.
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Thankful10
Guest
Converts? To what am I trying to convert people? My message is just one of reminding others that we are to obey God.
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Thankful10
Guest
Disciple meaning that he did not travel around with Jesus and listen to his teachings. There are different meanings of disciple, and yes John was a believer.That’s kinda odd since they were cousins. [bibledrb]Luke 1:36[/bibledrb]
Not a disciple of Jesus? How do figure that? Luke 1 says, “41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.”
That also tells us that John recognized Our Lord even in the womb. Not a disciple?
Then also we have Luke 3:21 Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened; 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape, as a dove upon him; and a voice came from heaven: Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
And even more so John writes in his first chapter, "
26 John answered them, saying: I baptize with water; but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not. 27 The same is he that shall come after me, who is preferred before me: the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to loose. 28 These things were done in Bethania, beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.
31 And I knew him not, but that he may be made manifest in Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John gave testimony, saying: I saw the Spirit coming down, as a dove from heaven, and he remained upon him. 33 And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptize with water, said to me: He upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining upon him, he it is that baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and I gave testimony, that this is the Son of God. 35 The next day again John stood, and two of his disciples.* 36*** And beholding Jesus walking, he saith: Behold the Lamb of God. **37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus."
You are far afield of what the Word of God very plainly tells us.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Again, how is a holier-than-thou, I-know-better-than-TheEntire-Church attitude getting your message out?
Are people rushing to embrace it?
How many are saying:
“Why, yes! We’ve been wrong the whole time! You’re the one who’s right, not Holy Mother Church! Thank you for telling us that two thousand years of Tradition, Magisterium, and Scripture is wrong and you are right! And also thanks for telling us you’re the only one since Mary Immaculate and Our Lord Jesus Christ without sin.”
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Thankful10
Guest
I believe you stated the problem I am having with the Christian Church. People have, on the majority, given over their spiritual responsibility to the leaders of their churches.Catholics submit to the teaching of the Magisterium on biblical passages.
The reason why we cannot be pacifists is based on this interpretation and it is also a reason we do not cut off our hands when we sin.
Hope this helps,
fish90
It is no longer what Jesus taught, but what the church teaches. The Word of God can read very straight forward, but if it does not agree with the churches teachings most people will ignore what it says.
The Catholics believe the teaching of their church go back to the apostles. That is not true. Up until Constantine the Great Christians were pacifist, because that was the teaching of Christ.
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Pons
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Constantine I see…
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fish90
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Jesus gave us the Church to interpret Holy Scripture infallibly, so we do follow what Jesus taught. Revelation comes from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which is what forms the Deposit of Faith that has lasted since Jesus’ time.
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Pons
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Sorry for my knee-jerk reaction to what I call “browned chicken”.
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Thankful10
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The World needs law and law enforcers. Christians and not of the world, and do not need law. We are to show respect for those who govern us. We are to obey our governors unless they tell us to do something that goes against the Word of God.
Also your responses were very weak, and in no way discounts what Jesus said. : (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”
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Thankful10
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I believe Christian soldiers are very misled people. I also believe in their spirits they know it is wrong to kill.
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Sailor_Kenshin
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I’ve never heard that term. What does it mean?
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chessmane4e5
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Up until Constantine, Christians were also persecuted for their beliefs, so I can not imagine they would have had the opportunity to defend their faith in any other way than pacifism. When Constantine made Christianity legal (and that is all he did btw, he did not influence doctrine or what ever Dan Brown and other conspiracy theorist claim), it changed everything. Now the apostles could preach without fear of death from the government.
You have quoted some of the teachings of Christ to support your own opinion, where as the Catholic Church teaches the entire message of Christ.
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chessmane4e5
Guest
I am not trying to use examples to trap you with hypothetical situations. My examples are very realistic. I am not saying, “But if we kill this one person, thousands would be saved. So lets kill them.” I agree that trying to kill someone is wrong. But I think that defending and protecting the innocent is what Christ would want.
Can you define what you mean by “harm”?
My example of the woman being attacked in an alley.
Do you think it is okay to run to help her, and push the man off her?
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Thankful10
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You really don’t know your history very well. Christians were persecuted because they would not serve in any army. Saying they didn’t fight because they didn’t have the means is nothing but false.
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chessmane4e5
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Really? They were not persecuted for preaching the Gospel? Why where the apostles all killed (except John)?
If you can prove your statement, then you could right about Christians being pacifists. Do you have any historical evidence?
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Thankful10
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First to answer you questions. I am not sure what I would do in any hypothetical situation. I would ask Jesus what to do and let him be my guide.
Right after Jesus told me that is was wrong to hurt/harm any one I shared this with my wife. She asked me what I would do if some man broke into our house and was going to rape her. I told her that I might get into his way, but I would not harm him. She became angry with me and left the room. I knew she had a close relationship with Jesus and would ask him if what I told her was right. She did ask Jesus and Jesus told her the same thing he told me. My wife came back to me and said she would not want me to hurt the man.
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Thankful10
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Did I say they were not persecuted for other reasons?
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chessmane4e5
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No I guess you did not, but you also did not give any evidence to back up your claim.
I suppose pacifism is the “safe” way to go, but I also wonder if this might not lead to times where people could have done something but don’t. As in your example of an intruder in your home. You clearly that you do not want to harm the intruder, and I know that no one knows what they would do in any hypothetical situation, but that does not mean we should not think about it, so when a time comes to act (or not act) we will be prepared.
I really am curious about this. Would you run to call the police (assuming you didn’t stand in the way of the intruder), or because they would use force would you not?
Again, I am not trying to trap or get you to contradict yourself, I am merely looking for clarity. If the Church was to teach Pacifism, Catholics everywhere would be asking these same questions because we would want to know how to act.
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chessmane4e5
Guest
I also just found this.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21882
I will reading and reflecting on these bible verses cited
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=21882
I will reading and reflecting on these bible verses cited
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ryanoneil
Guest
I seems you are giving Mt 5 priority over the other verses instead of reconciling them.
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