Jesus told us to be pacifists

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This may have already been said, but…

The first quote is about Retaliation according to my bible. It continues with: "But I say unto you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Matthew 5:39-41

While this may be evidence for individual pacifism, I see no indication that we should not defend the helpless. This passage seems to be saying, if someone does something wrong to you, do not retaliate. The part about being struck on the right cheek. Most people are right handed. Therefore, this was a backhand slap. That is usually done as an insult. Jesus did not say, if someone beings to punch in your face, do nothing. And He especially didn’t say, if you see someone getting mugged do nothing.

The other passage is clarified a few verses later. “For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?” Matthew 5:46

Clearly, he is calling us to love our enemies, because even evil people love other evil people. How much better is it to love everyone?

Taken by themselves, these two verses could be interpreted to indicate pacifism. But when the entire bible is looked at (Old and New Testament), when the teachings of Jesus, all of them, are analyzed, there just is not enough evidence. Jesus never shunned every form of violence.
(Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Jesus said he came to complete the law. Then he says you have learnt how ii was said: Eye of eye etc. and Jesus said you have learnt how it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

You can see that he was talking about what they learned under the Old Law; he said: no you will do it my way from now on.

One does not need to consult the Old Testament to understand what Jesus told us about how we should treat our enemies. Jesus told us what the Old Law said.
 
One does not need to consult the Old Testament to understand what Jesus told us about how we should treat our enemies. Jesus told us what the Old Law said.
Add one more scripture to your list
But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.
 
(Matthew 5:17) “Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. I tell you solemnly, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, shall disappear from the Law until its purpose is achieved.”

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Jesus said he came to complete the law. Then he says you have learnt how ii was said: Eye of eye etc. and Jesus said you have learnt how it was said, love your neighbor and hate your enemy.

You can see that he was talking about what they learned under the Old Law; he said: no you will do it my way from now on.

One does not need to consult the Old Testament to understand what Jesus told us about how we should treat our enemies. Jesus told us what the Old Law said.
Well I gave explanations (you might not agree) for the 2nd and 3rd Matthew quotes, but the first seems to support my position. If Jesus said he was not going to change the Old Testament, then "For everything these is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to pluck up what is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal: Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
and “A time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.” Ecc 3:8

Lots of information Here

I am going to read those bible passages and reflect :gopray:
 
Well I gave explanations (you might not agree) for the 2nd and 3rd Matthew quotes, but the first seems to support my position. If Jesus said he was not going to change the Old Testament, then "For everything these is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to pluck up what is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal: Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
and “A time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.” Ecc 3:8

Lots of information Here

I am going to read those bible passages and reflect :gopray:
Do you not really see that is some of what Jesus came here to complete? After it has been completed then what was goes away.

Look you don’t want to believe what is written, and there isn’t much more I can share with you, so do your self a favor, and ask Jesus if I am right or wrong. That is how I found out the truth.
 
Add one more scripture to your list
I have addressed that verse a few times already on this thread, but for those who don’t read all the post, here it is again. Luke 22:38) “Lord, they said ‘there are two swords here now,’ He said to them, ‘that is enough!

Here is what some bible scholars said about that passage of scripture: The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly. Also,
Jerusalem Bible: J. The purse to buy, the sword to procure by force the necessities of life. All this is symbolic of a mission in a hostile world.

K. The Apostles have taken the words of Jesus too literally and he closes the conversation abruptly.

By the way the Jerusalem Bible is a Catholic Bible.

Also ask your self, if Jesus wanted the disciples to use swords to defend themselves would two swords be enough?
 
…ask Jesus if I am right or wrong. That is how I found out the truth.
And this is what Sola Scriptura gets you. That’s why there are over 30,000 Protestant denominations, but the only the Sees of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have it together. Everyone else is too proud to admit they are not an expert, nor are they their own self-anointed authority.

It is wrong to believe that an ordained minister possesses nothing that you do not. Just as baptism forever marks a soul with God’s grace, so does Holy Orders. What you are doing is sacrilege in that your are taking on authority which has not been given to you. We all believe that it is a grave offense against God to pretend you are married when you are not. Why would you believe that you can pretend to have the authority to preach and interpret, when you do not? How offensive to God do you think those actions are?

Your interpretation is just that, your own. Stop trying to do it on your own.
 
I would tell you about my education, but doubt you would believe me so I will just I have read saint stories where the saints were persecuted because they would not fight in an army.
You mean like Jeanne D’Arc?
 
yes and when it was time for his arrest he told the apostles not to defend him with violence, but when it was time for them to go forth into the world and do battle on his behalf against satan those who oppress the poor, he told them to tie on their swords, or go buy a sword for those who did not have one. There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Amen!
 
And this is what Sola Scriptura gets you. That’s why there are over 30,000 Protestant denominations, but the only the Sees of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have it together. Everyone else is too proud to admit they are not an expert, nor are they their own self-anointed authority.

It is wrong to believe that an ordained minister possesses nothing that you do not. Just as baptism forever marks a soul with God’s grace, so does Holy Orders. What you are doing is sacrilege in that your are taking on authority which has not been given to you. We all believe that it is a grave offense against God to pretend you are married when you are not. Why would you believe that you can pretend to have the authority to preach and interpret, when you do not? How offensive to God do you think those actions are?

Your interpretation is just that, your own. Stop trying to do it on your own.
The Catholic is not teaching what Jesus taught. The spirituality has gone from it. The Bishops are said to be successors of the apostles. Paul tells us: (1 Corinthians 4:19-21) “but I will be visiting you soon, the Lord willing, and then I shall want to know not what these self-important people have to say, but what they can do, **since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. **It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?

I have known several bishops and not one of them walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Don’t you wonder how it is that many of your bishops didn’t follow what Paul told the Corinthians?

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that. It is not my business to pass judgment on those outside. Of those who are inside, you can surely be the judges. But of those who are outside, God is the judge. You must drive out this evil-doer from among you.”
 
Now tell me did she come before Constantine the Great corrupted the Church or after Constantine?
I thought you were the historian here.

Folks, nothing new to see, and you won’t be able to convince the bashers otherwise. Catholic-bashers have been in fashion ever since Christ created His church here on earth, making up their own stories, lying, or simply repeating lies they have heard others concoct.

We’ve heard it all. You can’t come up with any tired old saw that hasn’t been tried on us a billion times before.

Scott Hahn got it right. Maybe there’s hope for you.
 
The Catholic is not teaching what Jesus taught. The spirituality has gone from it. The Bishops are said to be successors of the apostles. Paul tells us: (1 Corinthians 4:19-21) “but I will be visiting you soon, the Lord willing, and then I shall want to know not what these self-important people have to say, but what they can do, **since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. **It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?

I have known several bishops and not one of them walked in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Don’t you wonder how it is that many of your bishops didn’t follow what Paul told the Corinthians?

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that. It is not my business to pass judgment on those outside. Of those who are inside, you can surely be the judges. But of those who are outside, God is the judge. You must drive out this evil-doer from among you.”
Bishops have no authority by themselves. It is in the unison of Council when they define and clarify the Truth, and those are few and far between. Only the Pope has the authority to speak ex cathedra on his own, and most never exercised that privilege, including our current one. Your statement doesn’t change anything that I said, and not only that, we Catholics who actually hold fast to the Truth, as Saint Paul instructed, can tell the difference between a shepherd and a wolf, especially in this country.

Besides, Saint Paul himself said that this would happen.
"Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
~Acts 20:25-31~
You are confusing infallibility with impeccability, and the difference between the two is critical to your understanding of Church leadership.
 
Bishops have no authority by themselves. It is in the unison of Council when they define and clarify the Truth, and those are few and far between. Only the Pope has the authority to speak ex cathedra on his own, and most never exercised that privilege, including our current one. Your statement doesn’t change anything that I said, and not only that, we Catholics who actually hold fast to the Truth, as Saint Paul instructed, can tell the difference between a shepherd and a wolf, especially in this country.

Besides, Saint Paul himself said that this would happen.

You are confusing infallibility with impeccability, and the difference between the two is critical to your understanding of Church leadership.
Only the Pope has the authority to speak ex cathedra on his own, and most never exercised that privilege, including our current one. Your statement doesn’t change anything that I said, and not only that, we Catholics who actually hold fast to the Truth,

No you are wrong the Pope does not have the authority to speak on his own. He especially does not have a right to change what Jesus taught. The Holy Spirit/Jesus is the head of the Church. The Holy Spirit did not allow Christians to become soldiers and killers.

You ignored my post where I talked about the Spirituality of the Catholic Bishops. You believe a person can be infallibility and still a sinner. You said: You are confusing infallibility with impeccability”

How can a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit, which means that person is a temple of God, be led by Satan? Can Satan live in the same house as God?

When a persons sins they are a slave of Satan. How can a slave of Satan lead a Christian Church?

To believe a Pope can do no damage to the faith and morals of the Church when they themselves are sinners is such a lie.

By the way being with out sin does not make on perfect.
 
How can a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit, which means that person is a temple of God, be led by Satan? Can Satan live in the same house as God?

When a persons sins they are a slave of Satan. How can a slave of Satan lead a Christian Church?
I find your logic quite ironic and twisted, especially given the fact that you completely dodged my post (#77) where I pointed out that St. Paul himself admits being drawn to sin and tells all of us by including it in Scripture. Given his statement, do you also believe he is unworthy of Church leadership? Also, I would love to know what you think we changed from what Jesus taught. You are not going to stump any of us here.

Your statement smacks of arrogance and pride.
 
I find your logic quite ironic and twisted, especially given the fact that you completely dodged my post (#77) where I pointed out that St. Paul himself admits being drawn to sin and tells all of us by including it in Scripture. Given his statement, do you also believe he is unworthy of Church leadership? Also, I would love to know what you think we changed from what Jesus taught. You are not going to stump any of us here.

Your statement smacks of arrogance and pride.
You really haven’t read Romans 7 & 8 have you? If you would have read what Paul said you would know that Paul was telling us how one through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit one is free from sin.

Instead of judging me why don’t you address what I have posted? Do you really think; a person can be possessed by Satan and the Holy Spirit? Haven’t you heard that the light will dispel darkness?
 
You ignored my post where I talked about the Spirituality of the Catholic Bishops. You believe a person can be infallibility and still a sinner. You said: You are confusing infallibility with impeccability”

How can a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit, which means that person is a temple of God, be led by Satan? Can Satan live in the same house as God?

When a persons sins they are a slave of Satan. How can a slave of Satan lead a Christian Church?

To believe a Pope can do no damage to the faith and morals of the Church when they themselves are sinners is such a lie.
Interesting. It seems your view in contratry to the Bible.

John 11:49-51
But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all, nor do you take into account that it is good for you that one man die for the people, so that the whole nation not perish.”
Now he did not say this on his own initiative, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation,
Note that Caiphas was able to correctly prophesy ( a gift of the Holy Spirit) even though he was far from sinless. And what enabled him to speak with the Gift of the Holy Spirit was his role as High Priest.
 
Interesting. It seems your view in contratry to the Bible.

John 11:49-51

Note that Caiphas was able to correctly prophesy ( a gift of the Holy Spirit) even though he was far from sinless. And what enabled him to speak with the Gift of the Holy Spirit was his role as High Priest.
Caiaphas was not filled with the Holy Spirit. God let him be the head of a corrupt Church, and you believe he was also corrupt. Yet God let him prophesy. I don’t see that being the same as leading a Good Church in faith and morals.
Jesus gave Christians his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us. If one comes to know God and sins; there is no redemption for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

So you want to believe a condemned person could still lead a Christian Church?
Now I am sure God can do anything, but having Satan be the head of his Church?
 
Only the Pope has the authority to speak ex cathedra on his own, and most never exercised that privilege, including our current one. Your statement doesn’t change anything that I said, and not only that, we Catholics who actually hold fast to the Truth,

No you are wrong the Pope does not have the authority to speak on his own. He especially does not have a right to change what Jesus taught. The Holy Spirit/Jesus is the head of the Church. The Holy Spirit did not allow Christians to become soldiers and killers.

You ignored my post where I talked about the Spirituality of the Catholic Bishops. You believe a person can be infallibility and still a sinner. You said: You are confusing infallibility with impeccability”

How can a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit, which means that person is a temple of God, be led by Satan? Can Satan live in the same house as God?

When a persons sins they are a slave of Satan. How can a slave of Satan lead a Christian Church?

To believe a Pope can do no damage to the faith and morals of the Church when they themselves are sinners is such a lie.

By the way being with out sin does not make on perfect.
Back from Christmas for a little Pope-bashing? Enjoy your mission and Happy New Year.
 
This guy apparently hasn’t been reading the Gospels as well as he thinks it has, because Jesus plainly tells us that there are sinners as well as saints in the Church. He might want to take a look at the parables of the field with the weeds amongst the grain.

Don’t even bother dealing with him anymore. The father of lies has completely hardened his heart. The only thing we can do now is pray for this poor soul.
 
This guy apparently hasn’t been reading the Gospels as well as he thinks it has, because Jesus plainly tells us that there are sinners as well as saints in the Church. He might want to take a look at the parables of the field with the weeds amongst the grain.

Don’t even bother dealing with him anymore. The father of lies has completely hardened his heart. The only thing we can do now is pray for this poor soul.
Scripture tells us that Christians who know God are dead to sin. Now I don’t know of any denominational church that does teach that truth, the Catholic Church included.

(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people? “

Notice Paul was talking to Christians, but said they were still unspiritual. That, he said, was because of their sinning. So obviously they were not mature Christians. Now James was also talking to Christians who were not mature. Now notice in the following Scripture that the Christians who were being addressed were spiritually matures Christians.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offenses and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death. Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not deliberately commit a sin, and if he or she is being led by the Holy Spirit, and deliberately commits a sin, there is no redemption for that person.

(1 John 1:8-10) “If we say we have no sin in us, we are deceiving ourselves and refusing to admit the truth; but if we acknowledge our sins, then God who is faithful and just will forgive our sins and purify us from everything that is wrong. To say that we have never sinned is to call God a liar and to show that his word is not in us.”
 
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