Jesus told us to be pacifists

[Meunke]

The Holy Spirit is one’s sole or sufficient rule of faith. The Written Word is just a check on any teaching from whatever source.

That’s not what you believe at all, based on your posts. Thousands of Protestant sects have splintered off and disagree with many things that are FUNDAMENTAL, like is Baptism really necessary for salvation, are good works necessary, is the Son equal to the Father, etc. ALL claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and ALL will quote from the Bible to back up their claims, just like you do. What you really mean to say is that what YOU say is the Holy Spirit’s teaching is what the sole rule of Faith is, just like all the others I just mentioned.

“Also the early Church understood what Jesus said. The early Church did not allow for Christians to be in anyone’s army.”

• Not only do you not understand Scripture, you are also an historical illiterate. Give historical proof of your absolute statement.

“If the Written Word of God said that the Holy Spirit was an angel then I would not believe in the Trinity”

• The word used is Spirit, also, the form of a dove is mentioned. NOWHERE is it mentioned that He is God. You are, once again, reading things into Scripture that are not said in Scripture. Once again, give me a chapter and verse where it says that the Holy Spirit is God. You are trying to avoid answering directly.

Also, give me a chapter and verse where the Trinity is taught. Stop being a whimp, quit dodging the question and answer directly if you can. Otherwise, simply admit that you can’t.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

It’s actually not my phrase. I actually heard term coined by a Protestant apologist (technically, he attended a Baptist church, but he was more independent and surprisingly friendly regarding Catholicism although he obviously was not Catholic so he felt it theologically incorrect…his website contained a link here to Catholic Answers and started me on the journey home to Rome although I did not know it yet back then since I was still a happy/blissfully ignorant Protestant although I was getting attracted to Anglicanism…the link was on his website along with several other Pro-Catholic sites and several more intelligent Anti-Catholic [in terms of theology] site links because he did not like getting into discussions on the merits of Catholicism so he just left the links so people could read on their own and make their own decision on their view of Catholicism, whether positive or negative).

EDIT: In answer to your question, I don’t mind if you use the phrase.

Thanks! And thanks also for telling us your story. AND welcome home.

 

[Thankful10]

That’s not what you believe at all, based on your posts. Thousands of Protestant sects have splintered off and disagree with many things that are FUNDAMENTAL, like is Baptism really necessary for salvation, are good works necessary, is the Son equal to the Father, etc. ALL claim to be led by the Holy Spirit, and ALL will quote from the Bible to back up their claims, just like you do. What you really mean to say is that what YOU say is the Holy Spirit’s teaching is what the sole rule of Faith is, just like all the others I just mentioned.

“Also the early Church understood what Jesus said. The early Church did not allow for Christians to be in anyone’s army.”

• Not only do you not understand Scripture, you are also an historical illiterate. Give historical proof of your absolute statement.

“If the Written Word of God said that the Holy Spirit was an angel then I would not believe in the Trinity”

• The word used is Spirit, also, the form of a dove is mentioned. NOWHERE is it mentioned that He is God. You are, once again, reading things into Scripture that are not said in Scripture. Once again, give me a chapter and verse where it says that the Holy Spirit is God. You are trying to avoid answering directly.

Also, give me a chapter and verse where the Trinity is taught. Stop being a whimp, quit dodging the question and answer directly if you can. Otherwise, simply admit that you can’t.

You look up your church history; you want to believe I am wrong prove it to me. I say Christians before Constantine the Great conned the church to let Christians into his army were pacifists. Prove me wrong if you can.

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and that he would give us his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us. Now in order for the Holy Spirit to teach one he needs to communicate with that person.

Personally I am not a protestant. I am a Christian. You would be surprised to learn that I believe much what you do and more. I live the Word of God to the fullness. I do not deliberately commit sin. I do not store, I don’t believe in usury, I would not harm anyone for any reason. Jesus is my Lord and God. Jesus came in the flesh and died for us and rose from the dead. Jesus has made his home in me.

Now you try to find any reason that I am not a Christian.

 

[nsper7]

You look up your church history; you want to believe I am wrong prove it to me. I say Christians before Constantine the Great conned the church to let Christians into his army were pacifists. Prove me wrong if you can.

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and that he would give us his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us. Now in order for the Holy Spirit to teach one he needs to communicate with that person.

Personally I am not a protestant. I am a Christian. You would be surprised to learn that I believe much what you do and more. I live the Word of God to the fullness. I do not deliberately commit sin. I do not store, I don’t believe in usury, I would not harm anyone for any reason. Jesus is my Lord and God. Jesus came in the flesh and died for us and rose from the dead. Jesus has made his home in me.

Now you try to find any reason that I am not a Christian.

You can be sincere in your faith and still be sincerely wrong. There are many Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists what have you that might well live piously, but they still do not possess the fullness of Truth.

If you are not a Catholic, then regardless of how pious you are (or claim to be…I don’t know you, all I have here are your words), you are still lacking the fullness of Truth. Right there ends the discussion on your opinions…you can say all you want, but your words are incorrect if they go against Church teaching.

Also, there is a very good reason Christians would not have served in the Roman Armies prior to Constantine and it has nothing to do with forbidding the use of force. It would have to do with the fact that the Roman Emperors required their troops to sacrifice to them and the Roman Gods. Obviously, a Christian would have been unable to do this in good conscience. Your knowledge of history and Scripture seems quite simplistic and lacking.

 

[Meunke]

You look up your church history; you want to believe I am wrong prove it to me. I say Christians before Constantine the Great conned the church to let Christians into his army were pacifists. Prove me wrong if you can.

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and that he would give us his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us. Now in order for the Holy Spirit to teach one he needs to communicate with that person.

Personally I am not a protestant. I am a Christian. You would be surprised to learn that I believe much what you do and more. I live the Word of God to the fullness. I do not deliberately commit sin. I do not store, I don’t believe in usury, I would not harm anyone for any reason. Jesus is my Lord and God. Jesus came in the flesh and died for us and rose from the dead. Jesus has made his home in me.

Now you try to find any reason that I am not a Christian.

This is you failing at Logic 101. You see, YOU made the blanket statement “There were no Christians in the Army before Constantine.” Then you demand that I prove you wrong? That’s like me saying “Martians have landed on and claimed the Moon. Now TRY to prove me wrong.”

See, I don’t have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on YOU. You have stated a ‘fact’ with NO evidence. You must provide the evidence. So… do so.

You have again chickened out and not provided the chapters/verses I requested proving the Holy Spirit is God and stating the doctrine of the Trinity. Can you not do so? If not, then say so. If you do can NOT prove from scripture that the Holy Spirit is God, then why do you believe it?

“Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and that he would give us his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us.”
And you use this statement as carte blanche to push your personal dogmas… like all the other non-catholic christian sects. One says baptism is necessary, another says it isn’t, both use the Bible as proof and BOTH CLAIM THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GUIDING THEM. Your claim that the Holy Spirit is guiding you and not others who interperate the Bible differently is backed up by, well, nothing except your say so.

So, Thanksful, are you an infallible interpeator of Scripture? Or could you have made a mistake in any of your beliefs? How can someone know that the YOU have the guidence of the Holy Spirit and everyone else is who disagrees with you, but also cites scripture and claims guidence of the Holy Spirit is wrong? What is there, besides your claim to be free from error?

 

[Highwayhound]

You look up your church history; you want to believe I am wrong prove it to me. I say Christians before Constantine the Great conned the church to let Christians into his army were pacifists. Prove me wrong if you can.

Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and that he would give us his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us. Now in order for the Holy Spirit to teach one he needs to communicate with that person.

Personally I am not a protestant. I am a Christian. You would be surprised to learn that I believe much what you do and more. I live the Word of God to the fullness. I do not deliberately commit sin. I do not store, I don’t believe in usury, I would not harm anyone for any reason. Jesus is my Lord and God. Jesus came in the flesh and died for us and rose from the dead. Jesus has made his home in me.

Now you try to find any reason that I am not a Christian.

From the posts I have read I have seen that you quote both St. Matthew and St. Luke. They were used by God to write down his Word. Jesus also is the Word. Jesus taught and instructed both St. Matthew and St. Luke among others. They were there right alongside of Jesus when he walked the earth. They are also 2 of the people that helped start the church here on earth. They built the church based on what Jesus (the Word) told them to do. This building of the church would include the mass, Tradition, etc. Both St. Matthew and St. Luke would be reliable sources.

My question to you is why do you trust their Holy Spirit inspired written words, but not their Holy Spirit inspired actions?

God bless

 

[Thankful10]

This is you failing at Logic 101. You see, YOU made the blanket statement “There were no Christians in the Army before Constantine.” Then you demand that I prove you wrong? That’s like me saying “Martians have landed on and claimed the Moon. Now TRY to prove me wrong.”

See, I don’t have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on YOU. You have stated a ‘fact’ with NO evidence. You must provide the evidence. So… do so.

You have again chickened out and not provided the chapters/verses I requested proving the Holy Spirit is God and stating the doctrine of the Trinity. Can you not do so? If not, then say so. If you do can NOT prove from scripture that the Holy Spirit is God, then why do you believe it?

“Jesus said his people would hear his voice, and that he would give us his Holy Spirit to guide and teach us.”
And you use this statement as carte blanche to push your personal dogmas… like all the other non-catholic christian sects. One says baptism is necessary, another says it isn’t, both use the Bible as proof and BOTH CLAIM THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GUIDING THEM. Your claim that the Holy Spirit is guiding you and not others who interperate the Bible differently is backed up by, well, nothing except your say so.

So, Thanksful, are you an infallible interpeator of Scripture? Or could you have made a mistake in any of your beliefs? How can someone know that the YOU have the guidence of the Holy Spirit and everyone else is who disagrees with you, but also cites scripture and claims guidence of the Holy Spirit is wrong? What is there, besides your claim to be free from error?

Well it seem that to become an electrical engineer they didn’t require me to take logic. I don’t really care if you do or don’t want to find out what early Christians believed.

I believe what the Written Word of God says, and very few Christians today do that.

The reason I believe in the Trinity is because Jesus told me it was true. You see I don’t believe anything about God that is told to me by man unless Jesus tells me it is true.

 

[nsper7]

Well it seem that to become an electrical engineer they didn’t require me to take logic. I don’t really care if you do or don’t want to find out what early Christians believed.

I believe what the Written Word of God says, and very few Christians today do that.

The reason I believe in the Trinity is because Jesus told me it was true. You see I don’t believe anything about God that is told to me by man unless Jesus tells me it is true.

When did Jesus tell you the Trinity was true?

 

[Meunke]

Well it seem that to become an electrical engineer they didn’t require me to take logic. I don’t really care if you do or don’t want to find out what early Christians believed.

I believe what the Written Word of God says, and very few Christians today do that.

The reason I believe in the Trinity is because Jesus told me it was true. You see I don’t believe anything about God that is told to me by man unless Jesus tells me it is true.

I couldn’t care less if you are an electrical engineer. Funny, when I graduated with Comp Sci, we took Logic. It’s very usefull, as it helps people see through contradictions in people’s arguments and call them out on assumed premesis as well as notice when they are assuming their conclusion in an argument.

And once again, you have not provided the chapter and verse that says the Holy Spirit is God. Nor have you given me the Chapter / Verse that defines the Trinity. Why not?

“The reason I believe in the Trinity is because Jesus told me it was true.”

• Really? When did that happen? In the Bible? Then give me a chapter and verse reference. Or was it perhaps in an email? Did Jesus call you on His cell phone and tell you?

Either it is in Scripture or it isn’t, thankful. WHICH IS IT?

“I believe what the Written Word of God says, and very few Christians today do that.”

• So do you eat the flesh (the literal translation actually comes closer to ‘gnaw upon’) of the Son of Man and drink His blood? Because unless you do, scripture says you don’t have life in you. Or did the Holy Spirit say you could skip that part?

“I don’t really care if you do or don’t want to find out what early Christians believed.”

• TRANSLATION: you have no proof whatsoever for the statement you made and are now indignent at being called on it.

Don’t try to bluff someone who actually reads history, thankful. Perhaps they didn’t make you study History in Engineering school either?

 

[Thankful10]

I couldn’t care less if you are an electrical engineer. Funny, when I graduated with Comp Sci, we took Logic. It’s very usefull, as it helps people see through contradictions in people’s arguments and call them out on assumed premesis as well as notice when they are assuming their conclusion in an argument.

And once again, you have not provided the chapter and verse that says the Holy Spirit is God. Nor have you given me the Chapter / Verse that defines the Trinity. Why not?

“The reason I believe in the Trinity is because Jesus told me it was true.”

• Really? When did that happen? In the Bible? Then give me a chapter and verse reference. Or was it perhaps in an email? Did Jesus call you on His cell phone and tell you?

Either it is in Scripture or it isn’t, thankful. WHICH IS IT?

“I believe what the Written Word of God says, and very few Christians today do that.”

• So do you eat the flesh (the literal translation actually comes closer to ‘gnaw upon’) of the Son of Man and drink His blood? Because unless you do, scripture says you don’t have life in you. Or did the Holy Spirit say you could skip that part?

“I don’t really care if you do or don’t want to find out what early Christians believed.”

• TRANSLATION: you have no proof whatsoever for the statement you made and are now indignent at being called on it.

Don’t try to bluff someone who actually reads history, thankful. Perhaps they didn’t make you study History in Engineering school either?

By the way Jesus told me that he was God, that the Bible was the Written Word of God, that Christians are dead to sin, and much more. You see he has been teaching me for thirty years.

You seemed skeptical when I said that Jesus told me the Holy Spirit was God. Why is that? Jesus said we would receive his Holy Spirit and he would teach us. Jesus also said that his people would hear his voice. I guess some people don’t believe what the Written Word of God says.

 

[Meunke]

By the way Jesus told me that he was God, that the Bible was the Written Word of God, that Christians are dead to sin, and much more. You see he has been teaching me for thirty years.

You seemed skeptical when I said that Jesus told me the Holy Spirit was God. Why is that? Jesus said we would receive his Holy Spirit and he would teach us. Jesus also said that his people would hear his voice. I guess some people don’t believe what the Written Word of God says.

Jesus told you the Holy Spirit was God? Once again, thankful, HOW? Did he speak to you in a thunderclap? Did he send you an angel? Did you get it from Scripture? If you got it from scripture you should tell me, like I keep asking (and you keep fearfully avoiding), in which chapter and verse He did so?

Jesus told you in the Bible that the Bible is the Written word of God? So you’re saying you believe the Bible is the Word of God, because the Bible says so? That doesn’t sound like circular logic to you? (wait, nevermind, you skipped that class)

“I guess some people don’t believe what the Written Word of God says.”
Oh I do, thankful, even the part about eating the flesh of the Son of Man, which I very much doubt you believe in.

You never answered my other questions on why we should accept YOUR interpretation of Scripture instead of others who ALSO claim guidance of the Holy Spirit and quote the Bible. Why are YOU right and THEY are wrong? They are just as convinced of the Holy Spirit’s guidence as you are.

Now, one more time: Give me the passages in the Bible where it states that the Holy Spirit is God, and the Trinity is taught.

Quote me the passages, thankful. It shouldn’t be hard for you.

 

[Timothysis]

Was not Saint Sebastian in the Roman army during the reign of Diocletian, and did he not suffer a martyrs fate when it was discovered that he was a Christian? So, it would seem that Christians were, indeed, in the army before Constantine.

 

[Thankful10]

Was not Saint Sebastian in the Roman army during the reign of Diocletian, and did he not suffer a martyrs fate when it was discovered that he was a Christian? So, it would seem that Christians were, indeed, in the army before Constantine.

That is right he was a Christian, but the army did not know it. He died in 283 just before Constantine the Great. The Church at that time made him a saint, wasn’t that convent. What better way to convince people it was OK to join Constantine’s army?

Can anyone show that the Church before 200 allowed Christians to fight in any army? I don’t believe the church before Constantine taught it was right to be in the army.

 

[Thankful10]

Jesus told you the Holy Spirit was God? Once again, thankful, HOW? Did he speak to you in a thunderclap? Did he send you an angel? Did you get it from Scripture? If you got it from scripture you should tell me, like I keep asking (and you keep fearfully avoiding), in which chapter and verse He did so?

Jesus told you in the Bible that the Bible is the Written word of God? So you’re saying you believe the Bible is the Word of God, because the Bible says so? That doesn’t sound like circular logic to you? (wait, nevermind, you skipped that class)Just to make it clear to you I will tell you exactly how Jesus told me the Bible was the Written word of God.

Jesus spoke to me I heard him, but this time it was not audible. He told me to get more into the Word. I replied: “But I am into you.” I had always thought of Jesus as the Word of God, at least one of his descriptions. Jesus replied: “Also the Written Word.” Letting me know he meant the Bible.

“I guess some people don’t believe what the Written Word of God says.”
Oh I do, thankful, even the part about eating the flesh of the Son of Man, which I very much doubt you believe in.**When I first accepted Jesus’ call to his ministry the Holy Spirit told me that I would talk to Catholics about a personal relationship with Jesus and to non-Catholics about the Eucharist being truly the Body and Blood of Jesus. I knew right then I was not going to make many friends in my ministry. That was over thirty years ago and I was right. **
You never answered my other questions on why we should accept YOUR interpretation of Scripture instead of others who ALSO claim guidance of the Holy Spirit and quote the Bible. Why are YOU right and THEY are wrong? They are just as convinced of the Holy Spirit’s guidence as you are.What you should know is that Jesus/Holy Spirit should be one’s teacher. What others say is of no importance to anyone but them. No matter who tells me anything about God I ask Jesus if it is right or wrong. I don’t judge anyone else. I am responsible for my soul not anyone else’s. I know Jesus and he knows me. Jesus has given me grace to bear good fruit. Scripture tells us that is how we are to be judged.

Now, one more time: Give me the passages in the Bible where it states that the Holy Spirit is God, and the Trinity is taught.**Did I ever say that the Bible mentioned the Trinity? Why is that such a big deal to you? It wouldn’t take a genius to surmise that if there is only one God that some how there must be three in one. By the way Jesus once told me audibly that I was to stop trying to figure him out and just follow him. So I don’t spend much time thinking about what God is or isn’t. I just do as I am told. **
Quote me the passages, thankful. It shouldn’t be hard for you.

The Holy Spirit/Jesus has used many methods to communicate with me. He has spoken to me through the gift of knowledge, prophesy, tongues and the interpretation of tongues, spoken to me with words mentally, visions, touch, and audible. Jesus has audibly called me by name. Scripture tells us that his people he will call by name.

(John 10:1-5)“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

 

[zach_dunn]

Thankful10:

The early Church did not allow for Christians to be in anyone’s army.

Hmmmmmmmm . . .

What about Acts 10? Cornelius was a centurion, he told 100 other soldiers what to do along with being a soldier himself. He turned Christian, are we to assume that he quit being in the Roman army after his conversion?

 

[Timothysis]

That is right he was a Christian, but the army did not know it. He died in 283 just before Constantine the Great. The Church at that time made him a saint, wasn’t that convent. What better way to convince people it was OK to join Constantine’s army?

Can anyone show that the Church before 200 allowed Christians to fight in any army? I don’t believe the church before Constantine taught it was right to be in the army.

The Church at that time did not “make” someone a saint, it was proclaimed that a person was a saint by the populous because of the manner of life or death one experienced while on earth. Also, at that time the Church was an underground movement that did not have the ability to allow or disallow anyone to be in the army. I have shown that St. Sebastian was in the army, and apparently many of the converts that he made were in the army, too. While you “don’t believe the church before Constantine taught it was right to be in the army,” I must say that I don’t believe that the Church had a teaching one way or the other. In fact, didn’t soldiers ask the Apostle what they should do, and he told them to be content with their wages and to not extort money? If this isn’t tacit approval to be in the army then I don’t know what is.

 

[Thankful10]

Hmmmmmmmm . . .

What about Acts 10? Cornelius was a centurion, he told 100 other soldiers what to do along with being a soldier himself. He turned Christian, are we to assume that he quit being in the Roman army after his conversion?

When a person accepts Jesus as their savior the get baptized with water and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then begins instructing a person. Some people learn fast and other not so fast. The Holy Spirit will eventually get around to telling a solder to get out of the army.

 

[Thankful10]

The Church at that time did not “make” someone a saint, it was proclaimed that a person was a saint by the populous because of the manner of life or death one experienced while on earth. Also, at that time the Church was an underground movement that did not have the ability to allow or disallow anyone to be in the army. I have shown that St. Sebastian was in the army, and apparently many of the converts that he made were in the army, too. While you “don’t believe the church before Constantine taught it was right to be in the army,” I must say that I don’t believe that the Church had a teaching one way or the other. In fact, didn’t soldiers ask the Apostle what they should do, and he told them to be content with their wages and to not extort money? If this isn’t tacit approval to be in the army then I don’t know what is.

No the soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do. You should know that John was still under the Old Law. John my not even been aware of Jesus’ teachings.

You know what is so sad? Jesus told us what it was like in the Old Law. He tells us that it is not that way anymore. Yet people want to think he said those words just because he didn’t have anything else to say.

He said: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

(Matthew 5:43-44) “You have learnt how it was said, you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

You see he starts out You have learnt how it was! It obviously is not that way any more.

 

[zach_dunn]

When a person accepts Jesus as their savior the get baptized with water and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then begins instructing a person. Some people learn fast and other not so fast. The Holy Spirit will eventually get around to telling a solder to get out of the army.

What a surprise, reading meanings into the text. You have no reason to think Cornelius ever left the army, no reason at all. Now you are just making stuff up to make your theology work.

 

[workingman]

When a person accepts Jesus as their savior the get baptized with water and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit then begins instructing a person. Some people learn fast and other not so fast. The Holy Spirit will eventually get around to telling a solder to get out of the army.

So what is the point of military Chaplains then. These are priest, pastors, rev. ect… What about all of the Christian soldier’s along with other faiths fighting wars as we type? Are all these people not saved and false because of what there vocations given to them by God are. Give me a break

p.s. If God is a pacifist look at the apocalypse. Does the final battle sound like a pacifist to you