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Stumblesalot
Guest
Hi,
That is a very good article. I genuinely believe that God, in His infinite love, does not play favourites. I do maintain, however, that the term ‘gay marriage’ is in itself a contradiction in terms, as marriage is a sacrament of the church blessed by God. Same sex relationships are NOT endorsed by God and, consequently, not endorsed by the church. Many, including heterosexuals, are called to celibacy in order to receive the sacraments, and I would encourage people of same-sex orientation to return to the church. We are often accused of not loving homosexuals, when the truth is that we love our brothers/sisters so much that, at the risk of personal persecution, we will not lie to them.
God bless
That is a very good article. I genuinely believe that God, in His infinite love, does not play favourites. I do maintain, however, that the term ‘gay marriage’ is in itself a contradiction in terms, as marriage is a sacrament of the church blessed by God. Same sex relationships are NOT endorsed by God and, consequently, not endorsed by the church. Many, including heterosexuals, are called to celibacy in order to receive the sacraments, and I would encourage people of same-sex orientation to return to the church. We are often accused of not loving homosexuals, when the truth is that we love our brothers/sisters so much that, at the risk of personal persecution, we will not lie to them.
God bless
D
DoGodsBidding
Guest
Well stated.
L
losh14
Guest
I appreciate your posting this. I do struggle with this teaching - I mean, I obey it fairly easily as a straight married man, but it causes me difficulty with my friends, two of whom are gay and flying to New York in the next month to marry their male partners.
I want to echo
Christianity asks that you renounce the sexual pleasure to which you are attracted. This is a harsh discipline, and it may mean living without the pleasures and comforts of marital love.
I can apply it to every friend and relative of mind who is sleeping with their boyfriend/girlfriend or co-habitating with their fiancee. My wife has a large number of cousins in her family. Without exception, every one of her cousins has lived with their spouse before marriage. This is something my wife’s grandparents always bring up to us at family meals, “You know, you two kids did it the right way, you’ll turn out fine.” and it’s something that we get a ribbing from the cousins on too - “Grandma and Grandpa like you guys more, it’s your fault they aren’t as nice to us.” But the reality is, we sacrificed. I love my wife, and I’m very attracted to her. She’s gorgeous. I love making love to her, and if I start thinking about it at work it’s extremely distracting. Chastity is very much a discipline, before and within marriage.
Likewise I would extend:
I’ve attended six universities and received three degrees, and while my paltry 7 years of higher ed are not by any means all-encompassing, I have never seen an LGBT group put on an event aimed at helping relationships, like a Healthy Couples workshop, even though that would seem to be something of great interest to gay students as well as straight students.
My point is, I don’t have an answer but I’d like to see religious and LGBT communities engage together in what we hold in common, at least as a start, which is encouraging healthy relationships and a move towards seeing intimacy as something that’s not merely sexual in nature.
I want to echo
And if we take this quote from the article:
Christianity asks that you renounce the sexual pleasure to which you are attracted. This is a harsh discipline, and it may mean living without the pleasures and comforts of marital love.
I can apply it to every friend and relative of mind who is sleeping with their boyfriend/girlfriend or co-habitating with their fiancee. My wife has a large number of cousins in her family. Without exception, every one of her cousins has lived with their spouse before marriage. This is something my wife’s grandparents always bring up to us at family meals, “You know, you two kids did it the right way, you’ll turn out fine.” and it’s something that we get a ribbing from the cousins on too - “Grandma and Grandpa like you guys more, it’s your fault they aren’t as nice to us.” But the reality is, we sacrificed. I love my wife, and I’m very attracted to her. She’s gorgeous. I love making love to her, and if I start thinking about it at work it’s extremely distracting. Chastity is very much a discipline, before and within marriage.
Likewise I would extend:
to all who are sexually active outside of marriage. It’s unfair to call out our gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered friends and loved ones for being promiscuous when so many of our heterosexual friends are, too. There’s something that makes promiscuity the norm within much of the gay community. There are exceptions - and the gay couples I know are exemplary in that they really live very much like my wife and I do, owning a house, entertaining friends and family, setting goals together, and keeping their bedroom business very private. But if you go to a gay pride parade, sexuality is flaunted. Events sponsored by collegiate LGBT organizations also often flaunt sex rather than just sexuality. Like many heterosexual relationships, there’s this disconnect that equates intimacy with sex while neglecting all the other ways that intimacy is experienced in friendship, love and marriage.
I’ve attended six universities and received three degrees, and while my paltry 7 years of higher ed are not by any means all-encompassing, I have never seen an LGBT group put on an event aimed at helping relationships, like a Healthy Couples workshop, even though that would seem to be something of great interest to gay students as well as straight students.
My point is, I don’t have an answer but I’d like to see religious and LGBT communities engage together in what we hold in common, at least as a start, which is encouraging healthy relationships and a move towards seeing intimacy as something that’s not merely sexual in nature.
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MariaGoretti88
Guest
Thank you! God bless.
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stanczyk
Guest
It is hypocritical to be so selective in one’s opposition to sin as to single out homosexuals as somehow particularly sinful. When Catholics everywhere turn a blind eye to straight couples living together out of wedlock, or using birth control, or what have you, there is all manner of sexual immorality to be overcome. So why is it that so many Catholics are outraged at homosexuality more so than other forms of sexual immorality? It can only come down to intolerance.
We must show the same love to homosexuals as we do to straight people who have sex prior to marriage, or married couples who use contraception. But, tragically, that is not what is happening. Too many in the Church are fixated on eradicating homosexual sin while turning a blind eye to other types of sin. But the fact is that all such behaviors are sin, and all sin is equally an affront to God. So why selectively persecute homosexuals? It is rank hypocrisy.
People outside the Church can sense this deep hypocrisy. They may not be able to put a fine point on it, but it is apparent that the Christian outrage against homosexuals is selective and based on prejudice against homosexuals rather than anything rational. Were Catholics truly rational then the outrage against sin would be applied evenly. You ought to get just as outraged when a couple lives together out of wedlock as when a gay couple does so. You ought to treat a sexually active homosexual as kindly as you treat a sexually active straight person.
And furthermore, why the fixation on sexual sin? There is so much sin out there to be outraged about. Why have Catholic news sites not written screeds against rudeness, or lack of charity, or aggressive driving, or skipping Mass, or any of the other countless sins that we encounter in our daily lives? Did you all forget that even a sin that is otherwise venial, when done in willful contempt of God, is a mortal sin? So when you are rude to somebody, despite having been told by Christ to love everyone, you are dancing dangerously close to mortal sin. When you focus on the sins of others and ignore the plank in your own eye, you shut yourself down to true repentance.
To those Catholics getting so worked up about gay marriage and such, you should worry more about saving your own souls, because that kind of judgmental attitude puts you in far greater mortal peril than any homosexual.
We must show the same love to homosexuals as we do to straight people who have sex prior to marriage, or married couples who use contraception. But, tragically, that is not what is happening. Too many in the Church are fixated on eradicating homosexual sin while turning a blind eye to other types of sin. But the fact is that all such behaviors are sin, and all sin is equally an affront to God. So why selectively persecute homosexuals? It is rank hypocrisy.
People outside the Church can sense this deep hypocrisy. They may not be able to put a fine point on it, but it is apparent that the Christian outrage against homosexuals is selective and based on prejudice against homosexuals rather than anything rational. Were Catholics truly rational then the outrage against sin would be applied evenly. You ought to get just as outraged when a couple lives together out of wedlock as when a gay couple does so. You ought to treat a sexually active homosexual as kindly as you treat a sexually active straight person.
And furthermore, why the fixation on sexual sin? There is so much sin out there to be outraged about. Why have Catholic news sites not written screeds against rudeness, or lack of charity, or aggressive driving, or skipping Mass, or any of the other countless sins that we encounter in our daily lives? Did you all forget that even a sin that is otherwise venial, when done in willful contempt of God, is a mortal sin? So when you are rude to somebody, despite having been told by Christ to love everyone, you are dancing dangerously close to mortal sin. When you focus on the sins of others and ignore the plank in your own eye, you shut yourself down to true repentance.
To those Catholics getting so worked up about gay marriage and such, you should worry more about saving your own souls, because that kind of judgmental attitude puts you in far greater mortal peril than any homosexual.
T
TheBriman
Guest
In some cases i can agree with you. But what you are missing is why Catholics oppose gay marraige. Our society has transformed this opposition into something that makes us seem intolerant of people who are gay. I personally dont have a problem with gay people because they are no worse than my friends who are doing drugs and having premarital sex, but I am against gay marriagebecause that would FORCE our Church along with every other church in te country to marry gays. This is why us Catholics get worked up about gay marriage not because we dont understand them. If the state was just going to give out a certificate saying gays were married, i wouldnt like it because its just promoting more immorality in our culture but i wouldnt make a big deal of it because i would know that according to my faith it isnt a real marriage.
I believe we should love everyone, but this is almost always misconstrued to agreeing with everyone or by accepting and condoning the faults of others. My experience of love is to be willing to give your life to save someone else. I have family memebers who do drugs and are gay, and basically do anything and everything immoral and if they bring it up to me i will tell them i think what they do is disgusting, that doesnt mean i dont love them.
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buffalo
Guest
This, from Bishop Sheen is very good:
Love is not tolerance
BISHOP FULTON J. SHEEN****Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it.
Code:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/images/authos/Sheen8.JPG *Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it. **The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. *
It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind.
*The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body;
but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom. *
*Real love involves real hatred:
whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples
has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth. *
*Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”;
it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. *
Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God,
which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
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buffalo
Guest
The fight against the intrinsic evils of the homosexual act are important to saving our souls.
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stanczyk
Guest
Not more so than the intrinsic evil of premarital sex between straight people. I don’t see you up in arms about that.
Jesus was kind and loving to sinners of all sorts, He extended his love and compassion to prostitutes without judgment, and He even saw fit to praise a homosexual centurion for his faith.
Jesus was only brought to anger by hypocrites, those who claim to be holy but whose hearts are full of judgment for the sins of others.
Mind your own yard. Worry about your own sin, and be compassionate to everybody else. That’s the obligation of a Christian.
J
jwinch2
Guest
Not so. The Church has always taught that admonishment of sinners is one of the spiritual works of Mercy. In his Lenten address, Pope Benedict called us to take up the spirit of fraternal correction of others. We are to avoid judging the state of another person’s soul but that does not mean that we are to avoid judging their behavior. Priests, bishops, and even popes are all sinners yet they are still called to preach the gospel. So are we.
gkupsidedown.blogspot.com/2012/03/judging-like-bridey.html
Do we all need to get our own lives in gear? Of course, myself more than most. However, that does not remove the obligation one has to speak the truth. As for you attempting to use Jesus as justification for not focusing on homosexuality, He also said that he had not come to abolish one word of the old law but rather to fulfill it. This means that the teachings of the Bible on homosexuality still stand. Is homosexual sex worse than fornication? Hard to say. Both are mortal sins which means both kill our relationship with God. That’s enough for me. As noted above, we are to love those with same sex attraction and assist them in living chaste lives so that they may remain in communion with the Church. The grace received through the sacraments can provide them the strength to do this, but one has to be willing to receive it.
Jesus stated that the two greatest commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. Loving God is expressed by keeping His commandments which means all of them, not just the easy ones. In addition, sometimes loving your neighbor means you have to say things which are uncomfortable and even potentially hurtful. Do we love our neighbor enough that we are more concerned about their eternal salvation then we are our own comfort? Sadly, most of the time the answer is no.
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fix
Guest
What is this now?
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stanczyk
Guest
If only Catholics would comport themselves as Jesus did when he “admonished” prostitutes and homosexuals!
It amazes me the kind of mental gymnastics some people will do to try to get around the simple fact that Jesus commanded us to love one another, no exceptions! No sin is bad enough to warrant a lack of compassion.
If you want to admonish a sinner, go ahead. Just make sure you do it the same way Jesus did. He was kind and accepting of all sinners, never made a sinner feel unwelcome. Jesus tolerated all.
But there was one kind of sinner Jesus did get stern with, a special type of sin that needed a special type of treatment. Sexual sinners, prostitutes, adulterers, homosexuals, Jesus was kind and accepting to all manner of sin but the sin of judgmentalism and hypocrisy met with His sternest admonishment. He said to judge not lest ye be judged. There is no lawyer’s loophole around it.
The judgmental hypocrites are truly the worst type of all the sinners, since they are in the most spiritually precarious possible situation: they think their sin is virtue, so it is impossible to repent. Jesus was all smiles when it came to homosexuals and all types of sexual sinners, because this is how you get a sexual sinner to come around. You don’t pass judgment, you offer help.
But a spiritual hypocrite thinks he’s got it all figured out. They think their prejudices are tantamount to God’s law, and they look down their noses with a holier-than-thou attitude at people like homosexuals. They forget that Jesus was nothing but kind to homosexuals, and they treat homosexuals with disdain while professing to want to help them.
These are the people who are walking a razor’s edge of mortal sin, and they don’t even know it!
We should rebuke these people as sternly as possible, for their own good!
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buffalo
Guest
Well, actually I am up in arms. The Catechism is very strong about intrinsic evil. I can show the passage regarding homosexual acts, can you show me a passage that shows your example as being an intrinsic evil?
Perhaps you have missed the part about fraternal correction.
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stanczyk
Guest
Any sort of disordered sex is an intrinsic evil. I suppose technically speaking an act of sex that allows for the possibility of life is not an “intrinsic evil” even if out of wedlock, because the nature of sex open to life is not an intrinsic evil.Well, actually I am up in arms. The Catechism is very strong about intrinsic evil. I can show the passage regarding homosexual acts, can you show me a passage that shows your example as being an intrinsic evil?
But certainly sex that is not open to life, gay or straight, is an intrinsic evil. Do you want me to look up the Catechism on that, or can we agree on that?
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fix
Guest
You brought it up.
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stanczyk
Guest
Well, if you want to debate it we can, but it is highly tangential. I take it you are already familiar with what I am referring to. I think another thread is appropriate for another debate.
But I admit that I shouldn’t be using evidence that are in themselves controversial within this debate. My argument stands on its own. I guess that acts as a retraction of that particular point, but my argument within this thread is sound.
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buffalo
Guest
We are to love the sinner and hate the sin. We are to work towards the salvation of all. To advocate intrinsically evil acts is not what Jesus did or expects us to do.
I think a rereading of the NT is in order. Jesus had no problem confronting sin and sinners.
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buffalo
Guest
Show me the Catechism passage.
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