Jesus' warning about false conversion

[blessedstar]

Taken from the book ‘The Little Flowers of St Francis’ by Raphael Brown (Franciscan Tertiary). The book has the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur.

Once the Lord Jesus said to St Francis after he had prayed for people:

’You pray well, and I willingly grant your prayer, because they mean much to me and I have paid a great price for them. Nevertheless make a pact with me, and I will have mercy on all the people, namely, that your Order remain with Me and only Me. Yet the time will come when it will turn away from Me, but I will sustain the Order for a while for the world’s sake, which has faith in it and considers the Order its guide and its beacon. But afterwards I shall give power to the devils who will everywhere arouse against it so many scandals and tribulations that they will be expelled and avoided by everyone. And if a son goes to his father’s house for bread, he will strike him on the head with a stick. If the friars knew the tribulations of those days they would begin to flee, and many of them shall flee into the wilderness, that is those zealous for my honour.'

**And St Francis asked the Lord,‘How will they live there?’ Christ answered 'I who fed the sons of Israel in the wilderness shall feed them there with herbs. And I shall give those herbs different tastes, as formerly the manna. And afterward they shall go forth and rebuild the Order in its first perfect state. **

But woe to those who congratulate themselves on having only the appearance of conversion and who grow inert from idleness and do not steadfastly resist tempations that are permitted for the testing of the elect, since only those who have been tried shall receive the crown of eternal life, who have meanwhile suffered from the malice of the reprobate.'

It struck me when I read this that the Lord is warning of a false conversion and the people and the friars being mislead, but that Jesus will not let the whole Order fall into this and the Order will be restored.

I thought further about false conversion and recalled the Lord’s words ‘You shall know them by their fruit’. The Lord seems to be warning that there is false conversion and the fruit is not always as it seems; an apple can look good from the outside but when bitten into can be rotten on the inside at its core.

Any thoughts on this anyone?

 

[LilyM]

Interesting - certainly there are Franciscans who staunchly support Medj.

But I don’t think we can discuss the topic of Medj on here.

 

[blessedstar]

I don’t really want to discuss any circumstance imparticular. I want to discuss fruit and false conversion and anything imparticular to the Franciscan Order.

I would like to know how the Spirit moves people in respect of what I have provided from the book and their interpretation of Jesus’ words to St Francis.

I suppose this can go for any conversion, but Jesus refers to conversion specifically in context with the Franciscan Order. As I understand it the fruit can look good and seem to be fruit, but when it is cut open it is no fruit at all but rotten and in rotting it is no longer fruit, but false; its origin is not in Christ Jesus because only true conversion comes from God the Holy Spirit.

And further what happens to those who say they have fruit, who claim that they have conversion and the source of their conversion is false, will they stand or will they fall? Jesus says in His words to St Francis, that only true conversion will merit eternal life because they have endured the testing .

 

[Michael_Howard]

I don’t really want to discuss any circumstance imparticular. I want to discuss fruit and false conversion and anything imparticular to the Franciscan Order.

I would like to know how the Spirit moves people in respect of what I have provided from the book and their interpretation of Jesus’ words to St Francis.

I suppose this can go for any conversion, but Jesus refers to conversion specifically in context with the Franciscan Order. As I understand it the fruit can look good and seem to be fruit, but when it is cut open it is no fruit at all but rotten and in rotting it is no longer fruit, but false; its origin is not in Christ Jesus because only true conversion comes from God the Holy Spirit.

And further what happens to those who say they have fruit, who claim that they have conversion and the source of their conversion is false, will they stand or will they fall? Jesus says in His words to St Francis, that only true conversion will merit eternal life because they have endured the testing .

I think each of us knows inside and in our conscience if we are truly contrite and repentent and are striving to love Jesus Christ with all of our heart, mind and strength. God is not simply going to let us slip into hell by accident, that’s not just. Calvanism states that some are created for heaven and some for hell so if you are not of the elect your cookin’ no matter what you do. The true God is just and filled with mercy and will use all means to get us saved.

 

[blessedstar]

I think each of us knows inside and in our conscience if we are truly contrite and repentent and are striving to love Jesus Christ with all of our heart, mind and strength. God is not simply going to let us slip into hell by accident, that’s not just. Calvanism states that some are created for heaven and some for hell so if you are not of the elect your cookin’ no matter what you do. The true God is just and filled with mercy and will use all means to get us saved.

Of course you are right in what you say, but this is not what false conversion is. False conversion is someone claiming to have a grace from God and infact not having received such a grace. I wonder if you read the initial post.

As you know we do not simply have one conversion to faith and that’s the deal done, we are called to continual conversion and pray that God will continue to convert us.

When Jesus speaks of the ‘elect’ He is referring to the Catholic Church primarily.

I wonder if you could explain your post a little further because I think there are cross wires in understanding. I wonder if you are thinking that it means only conversion to the Catholic faith? I don’t think it is meant to be taken that way.

I do believe that people fake conversion for whatever reason best known to themselves.

I have a heap of work to do, so perhaps you can reply and I can give a lot more time to your thoughtful post tomorrow.

Thank you
In my prayer

 

[littleone]

I have heard that in America there are those who are against the Pope and are building a strong force against priests not being able to be married and not having women priests. John ( I think) tells us also in the book of revelations that there will be those who kill people saying it is for god and that God has lessened the time because of this.
It seems the same as what you are relating to, maybe? We know that the times are becoming more evil and that every thing is being tested against scientific knowledge and all else is being refused especialy spiritual things governed by our God’s expectations.
Your point seems very much in line with present day happenings.

Godbless
littleone

 

[Michael_Howard]

I think each of us knows inside and in our conscience if we are truly contrite and repentent and are striving to love Jesus Christ with all of our heart, mind and strength. God is not simply going to let us slip into hell by accident, that’s not just. Calvanism states that some are created for heaven and some for hell so if you are not of the elect your cookin’ no matter what you do. The true God is just and filled with mercy and will use all means to get us saved.

I read back what I wrote this morning and whoa doggy…I should never write without strong coffee!! I didn’t quite convey what I wanted to say (sheepishly slinks away). BTW I’m very staunchly anti-calvin so no worreis there (slinks away again).

 

[blessedstar]

I read back what I wrote this morning and whoa doggy…I should never write without strong coffee!! I didn’t quite convey what I wanted to say (sheepishly slinks away). BTW I’m very staunchly anti-calvin so no worreis there (slinks away again).

Please don’t slink away…Sometimes I think that I should never write at all with or without my strong coffee even still I write…when will I learn!!! C’est la vie:shrug:

Have a good day and slink back… see you on the forums.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Please don’t slink away…Sometimes I think that I should never write at all with or without my strong coffee even still I write…when will I learn!!! C’est la vie:shrug:

Have a good day and slink back… see you on the forums.

I have some more thoughts on this I’ll try to share later, right now I’m enjoying some strong Indonesian roast:thumbsup:

 

[Catherine_Grant]

A reminder that Content Rule #6 and Banned Topic #25 both prohibit the discussion or promotion of unapproved private revelations.

Medjugorje, in particular, is a prohibited topic. We allowed discussion on the church’s stance toward Medjugorje at one point in time. The local ordinary of Medjugorje, Bishop Ratko Perić, made the church’s stance clear in his June 15, 2006 homily. The Vatican spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, expressed the Vatican’s solidarity with the local ordinary and upheld his decision. Since the current stance of the church does not approve Medjugorje, all discussion of it falls under the banned topic of private revelation.

 

[blessedstar]

A reminder that Content Rule #6 and Banned Topic #25 both prohibit the discussion or promotion of unapproved private revelations.

Medjugorje, in particular, is a prohibited topic. We allowed discussion on the church’s stance toward Medjugorje at one point in time. The local ordinary of Medjugorje, Bishop Ratko Perić, made the church’s stance clear in his June 15, 2006 homily. The Vatican spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, expressed the Vatican’s solidarity with the local ordinary and upheld his decision. Since the current stance of the church does not approve Medjugorje, all discussion of it falls under the banned topic of private revelation.

Thank you Catherine, I didn’t know that and I didn’t know about what the Vatican had said. I’m sorry for my ignorance