Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[YADA]

How many times do we have to show you yada. We have given you the Greek word for brothers in the NT and you still want to argue the point. The debate is not with us its with God and His Word. If you want to argue with Him thats up to you. Like I said there’s no getting around the point. Mary had other children with Joseph. All the evidence in scripture points to that. Mary being their aunt, their step-mom, their cousin, their adoptive mom is just plain foolishness.

So you say … but if James and Salome are refered to as a brother andsister of Jesus in one passage but the son and daughter of other parents in another passage how does that make them the children of Mary’s womb? You have read into the text your own personal interpretation … an interpretation not held by Christianity in its earliest resocred writngs. An interpretation not even supported by the first Protestants in 16th century … In point of fact, this intepretation of the scripures is relatively new in its wide acceptance within Protestantism …

The early Christians read and understood the same scriptures that you have and did not read “Brothers” to mean children of Mary and brothers of the same womb … The Protestant Reformers read the same passages and did not understand “brothers” to mean children of the Mary nor of the same womb as Jesus …

This issue was addressed by the early church … were they the children of Mary? … The answer was ‘No’ … the reference was that they could be cousins, fellow tribesman, villagers or children of Joseph from another - previous - marriage … the passages are not clear …

Just because you have decried a new and innovative interpretation does not change the authentic Christian belief … that you fail to see any reason for this does not change the plan of salvation put in place by our Creator … it is His “Plan” and as such will contain much that is beyond our understanding … trying to assertain why Mary remained a Virgin is probably more knowable then WHY:

1] The Messiah was born of a virgin or came to earth as a child [not an adult]?

2] Why was it necessary for Jesus to die an excruciating death on a Cross?

3} How can God be “ONE” when Jesus is God and God is God and the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God and then we have the Trinity is ONE GOD… Three Persons?

4] Jesus has two natures; Human and Divine and is 100% both human and divine …

5] Ressurection … 6] Ascension …

Much of Scripture is FAITH … we can not acertain with scientific certainty that a “Virgin gave Birth to GOD: a divine male human child” … .our reason tells us otherwise …

So we are left with people who are called siblings of Jesus, a man identified as a child of Joseph and the Holy Spirit [some people would say both - as in the seed of Jospeh but inspired by or taken over by God] … AND parents other then Mary … how does this make them the offspring of Mary with certainty

 

[1beleevr]

sonofmonica:Thanks for clearing some things up; but if you read that post a certain way, it sounds like you were comparing marital sexuality differences between catholics and non-catholics I can’t speak for all non-catholics, but when I am fasting(usually 3 or 4 days) my wife and I abstain from sex, as well as caffeine, food, and other desires of the flesh. The virginity of Mary has been a topic of discussion for centuries, and until it can be proven one way or another, the debate will continue. The possibiity exists, that she may have had other children. Whether she did or not, is hard to prove. I only threw the part about oral sex and finishing outside in, because in an earlier thread, someone said that catholics could have oral sex, without the man ejaculating. Tell me, when you fast, do you also cut out television, internet, newspapers, etc.?

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Isaiah 58 refers to an uncommon type of fasting,

“Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?** Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in. If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.”

Christ often qouted the book of Isaiah, and in Matthew 17:14-21, He refers to fasting-- along with prayer-- as a means of aiding exorcism. There is no clarification as to which type of fasting He is referring to. Perhaps for this (lack of clarity), or some other reason, some newer translations omit the word ‘fasting’.

“And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.”

Also compare Mark 9:17-29.

P.S: If any one has any more replies [for me] about the Eucharist I have posted some comments at a thread called, “The Eucharist; superstition?”, and they may be more appropriate there.

 

[Prieldedi]

How can the Holy Spirit be Mary’s husband if 1) Joseph’s marriage to Mary was endorsed and recognized by Gabriel

This question can be answered by another question: How can God be your Father if there is a man on earth who fathered you?

1. the Holy Spirit would not be given until after Christ’s crucifixion? Indeed, with God all things are possible, and if Mary was a widow at the time the Holy Spirit descended then it could make sense, but that is not the argument some are making, is it?

The Holy Spirit came to Mary before Jesus was born:

Luke 1:28, The angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

Luke 1:30, But the angel said, “Do not fear, Mary, for God has looked kindly on you.”

Luke 1:35 And the angel said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore, the holy child to be born shall be called Son of God.”

And the Holy Spirit also came to Elizabeth before Jesus was born:

Luke 1:41-42, When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leapt in her womb. Elizabeth was filled with holy spirit, and giving a loud cry, said, “You are most blessed among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”

Besides, Mary is the only person to be recognized as being full of grace by God Himself. Gabriel was just His messenger. Also, the Holy Spirit inspires Elizabeth and then she calls Mary “The Mother of My Lord.”

Luke 1:43, “How is it that the mother of my Lord comes to me?”

Filled with the Holy Spirit…

Luke 1:46-48, … Mary said: “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit exults in God my savior! He has looked upon his servant in her lowliness, and people forever will call me blessed”.

These passages show that God gave Mary a special place in His plan. That’s why we follow the Holy Spirit instructions (given through Mary) and we call her Blessed.

All this confirm that Mary did not have other children, that She was kept pure so the Son of God would enter this world, and She remained forever pure, as She was the ‘New Ark of the Covenant’, the vessel that was to ‘contain’ the ‘WORD’, Jesus Christ Incarnate (John 1:1, John 1:14). This New Ark of the Covenant had to be ‘made’ without blemish just as the old Ark of the Covenant, as ordered by God in Exodus 25:8, “For they must build me a sanctuary so that I may dwell among them.” None of the four ‘brothers of Jesus’ were sons of Mary, the Mother of GOD. They were ‘fellow men’.

God bless you.

 

[Janet1983]

Besides, Mary is the only person to be recognized as being full of grace by God Himself.

The phrase “full of grace” in Greek is “plaras karitos” and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament; neither one is in reference to Mary.

“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,” (John 1:14).
“And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people,” (Acts 6:8).
The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation it is Stephen who is full of grace. In Stephen’s case it signifies that he was “full of the Spirit and of wisdom,” along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase “full of grace” come from regarding Mary?

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena “Hail full of grace.’” Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation.

So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let’s find out.

New American Bible (vatican.va) - And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
New International Version - The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
New American Standard Bible - And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
New Living Translation - Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"
King James Version - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
English Standard Version - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
Contemporary English Version - The angel greeted Mary and said, “You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you.”
Young’s Literal Translation - And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’

 

[Angelo_Michael]

…visit reply #283 or follow link in quote…]

From what I understand, the most descriptive scriptural excerpts pertaining to the nature of the Holy Spirit are contained in the Gospel of John in the 14th-16th chapters. You do not address those scriptures in your reply. Consider also Psalm 90, (of Moses),

“LORD, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men. For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up. In the morning it flourisheth, and groweth up; in the evening it is cut down, and withereth. For we are consumed by thine anger, and by thy wrath are we troubled. Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told. The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath. So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom. Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. O satisfy us early with thy mercy; that we may rejoice and be glad all our days. Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil. Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it.”

and also 2 Chronicles 18, especially verses 18-22,

“Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.
Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.”

 

[1beleevr]

Which translation of the Bible, says,“Greetings, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” And God is everyone’s Father, and He created man, who in turn multiplied, giving rise to earthly fathers, who sired me, you, and everyone else. So, the Holy Spirit was not “really” Mary’s "husband, merely the sower of the Seed.

 

[Prieldedi]

The phrase “full of grace” in Greek is “plaras karitos” and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament; neither one is in reference to Mary.

The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation it is Stephen who is full of grace. In Stephen’s case it signifies that he was “full of the Spirit and of wisdom,” along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase “full of grace” come from regarding Mary?

The Latin Vulgate is the Latin translation of the Bible done by St. Jerome in the fourth century. It is here in Luke 1:28 that is found the unfortunate Latin translation which says "ave gratia plena “Hail full of grace.’” Remember, the New Testament was written in Greek, not Latin, but the Roman Church has derived its doctrine from the Latin translation, not the Greek original. Therefore, it constructed its doctrine on a false translation.

So what do the other translations say about Luke 1:28? Let’s find out.

The original words of Luke 1:28 were not said in Greek. All this information about Gabriel’s visit to Mary was referred to Luke by Mary herself, not in Greek, but in the language spoken by Mary (Aramaic? Hebrew?), I don’t really know which, but it wasn’t Greek. So you have a first translation from Aramaic or Hebrew to Greek. Was something lost in that translation? Maybe. Did Jerome have access to a Hebrew version of Luke? Maybe. Unfortunate Latin translation? Never.

Anyway, if Luke 1:28 isn’t enough to really convince you that Mary was called Blessed by God, then maybe the passage where “a woman from the crowd” talks to Jesus will.

Luke 11:27-28, As Jesus was speaking, a woman spoke from the crowd and said to him, “Blessed is the one who bore you and nursed you!” Jesus replied, “Surely blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it as well.”

Many protestants use this passage to say that here Jesus is telling us that we must not put our hearts in Mary. Many use this passage as “proof” that Mary is over valued by Catholics. But look closely and you’ll see something different.

1. Jesus knew that Mary heard the Word of God.
2. Jesus knew that Mary kept the Word of God.
3. Jesus knew that even the most distant woman from God nurses her child and carries her child for nine months.
4. Jesus knew that no one is blessed for just doing the ordinary things of daily life, like a mother nursing her child.

What Jesus is really saying here is that His Mother is indeed “Blessed” as the woman called her, not because She bore and nursed Him, but because She heard the Word of God and kept it. So here you have the Son of God, you have God Himself calling Mary “Blessed”… “Surely blessed are those [Mary] who hear the word of God and keep it as well.”

God bless you

 

[1beleevr]

Jesus may not have referred to Himself as good, because He was still in His earthly body, and had not yet entered into Hids glory:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: Don’t be too quick to condemn all non-catholics, because some feel a certain way about Mary, and her place in the church. The apostles, after Pentecost, did not preach Mary, or her virginity, and Jesus didn’t say, Blessed is SHE who hears the Word of God and keeps it". My first encounter with the catholic church, I saw a large statue of Mary, and asked someone why they displayed it so prominently. I was told,“She is the blessed virgin mother of God, and we lift her up.”

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: Don’t be too quick to condemn all non-catholics, because some feel a certain way about Mary, and her place in the church. The apostles, after Pentecost, did not preach Mary, or her virginity, and Jesus didn’t say, Blessed is SHE who hears the Word of God and keeps it". My first encounter with the catholic church, I saw a large statue of Mary, and asked someone why they displayed it so prominently. I was told,“She is the blessed virgin mother of God, and we lift her up.”

Sorry if I caused the wrong impression, but no, I’m not condemning anyone. I used the word “many”, not “all” Protestants.

Those who rely strictly in the written Word of God in the Bible forget some passages that are in the Bible, that tell us that the Bible doesn’t have in it ALL the words spoken by Jesus during His public life:
John 20:30, “There were many other signs that Jesus gave in the presence of his disciples, but they are not recorded in this book.”
John 21:25, “But Jesus did many other things; if all were written down, the world itself would not hold the books recording them.”

With these passages in mind, one has to ask, where have all those things that Jesus did and said that “are not recorded in this book” gone? Gone with the wind? The answer is no, thank God. The Church has kept them. It’s called Tradition. And Tradition tells us that Christians were devoted to Mary from the early times of the Church. It is in the History of the Church as well. Why would anyone believe in The Church? Luke 10:16, “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me; and he who rejects me, rejects the one who sent me.” I must stress here the words “whoever listens to you” as opposed to the words “whoever reads you”.

Jesus enemies think that in order to destroy Him they have to destroy His Mother first. If they reduce Mary to a mere mortal with no special role in God’s plan, then it’s easier to defeat the Son. If it’s accepted that Mary was not a virgin, that She had other children, then the next step is to say that Jesus was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. When that happens, then they’ll say that Jesus was the biological son of Joseph and Mary, just like the “others”. And if Jesus is the son of Joseph, then He is not the Son of God. And if Jesus is not the Son of God, nobody can be the son of God… because, they’ll say, there is no God. How many Christians are helping Jesus’ enemies to accomplish their goal?

God bless you

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Also consider the words contained in the Blessing of Moses in Deuteronomy 33:8-11,

“And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

In my opinion, Christ’s tenor and words toward His mother and brothers (his family) may be intended to be held in the same regard as every other comparison Christ made of Himself and Moses-- as the copper serpent/ crucifixion, as manna/ bread of life, etc.-- which may have been related to persuade, and/or convince, believers that He, the Christ, is the Prophet, "like unto Moses."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19,
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

 

[Zundrah]

many say jesus had more brothers because on the cross, “When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!” John wasnt marys son! ?? anyone care to elaborate on these beliefs…

would love to hear from anyone! =]

But the scriptures clearly say this;

“Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary until **after **the baby was born”

…so obviously, they did have more children afterwards. Other wise he wouldn’t have married her… and the scriptures wouldn’t have the above written in it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, it was not 'until after". The verb was ‘until’. No after.

Here is another Biblical scripture: And Michal, wife of David, had no children by him until her death.

Did she have children AFTER her death? I think not.

Here is another “And the Lord will reign until all his enemies have been put under his feet.”

Does he STOP reigning then?? I think not.

The use of until means that Joseph did not have relations with Mary DURING her pregnancy (for if he did, then how could one claim with certainty the child was NOT Joseph’s?) But it has absolutely no reflection or indication for anything that happened AFTER the birth. It does not follow that if he had no relations ‘before’ that he MUST have had them after. . .or else Michal MUST have had children after her death and Christ MUST have stopped reigning when all his enemies were under his feet. . .by the very same ‘logic’ that claims this.

And if you search the Scripture, absolutely all the names given as 'the brothers of the Lord" are proven by Scripture to have a mother who was not the Virgin Mary. For example, “James” is given as 'the brother of the Lord". . .but there are only two James mentioned in Scripture, and neither one has a mother named Mary and a father named Joseph. . .one has a father named Alpheus, and Alpheus isn’t Joseph. . .

Not to mention that Christianity taught the Perpetual Virginity of Mary from ‘the beginning’ (Martin Luther himself refers to her as ever-virgin). . .it was only a man-made teaching of relatively recent times that disregarded the clear Scriptural evidence.

Of course, what always gets me is the ones who say, "It says in the Bible "brothers’ and that means Jesus had to have brothers from Mary and Joseph, there simply is NO OTHER WAY to read it. . .are the very same ones who say, “but when Jesus refers to His flesh being real food that we have to eat and drink, it DOESN’T mean that. . .really.”

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Many arguments have been presented stating that because something—in this case the acceptance of the perpetual virginity of Mary—has been promoted or accepted, “from the beginning,” that it is therefore true or right. But even Peter, the foundation of the Church, told lies, "from the beginning."

Matthew 26:33-35,
“Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.”

Matthew 26:69-75,
"Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

And Peter, even though cautioned not to, “live by the sword,” and having been taught the importance of forgiveness, nevertheless condemns a widow for lying.

Matthew 26:51-53,
“And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear. Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

Matthew 18:21-35,
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”

Acts 5:1-11,
“But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”

Just because something has been done, “from the beginning,” doesn’t necessarily make it right.

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: While I don’t completely agree with everything you said, it is obvious that you did a lot of research into your postAnd, I am well aware that all of Jesus’s deeds, and sayings, were not recorded. And to accept that, by what would you call it,“apostolic succession,” we are asked by faith, to believe that these sayings, have been dutifully, and infallibly preserved down through the years(1Thess 5:21). I mean I could say, that Jesus said,“Baptize infants as well as adults,” and convince someone He really said it. And Jesus’s enemies find out the hard way, that they cannot defeat Him. Are there double agents in “our” camp(Body of Christ)? Of course there are Sometimes, the flock has more to be afraid of from the other sheep than from the wolfAnd I find it quite a stretch, to say that Mary having other children, would render Christ a mere mortal. Mary, herself, was of course, a mere mortal, chosen by, and used by God, to deliver the Holy, unblemished Saviour.To deny that she and Joseph, did not EVER enjoy the benefits of marital physical relations, is an insult to Joseph, and God It is saying that(regardless if she had other children or not) God cannot restore the womb to it’s pre-Jesus state. And to answer your question, no, I am not a Christian who is helping to defeat Christ, it will never happen:thumbsup:

 

[Don_Hepler]

I don’t know much about Catholicism, and from what I understand, neither do Catholics know much about me. For the most part, according to my observation, Catholicism is centered around rebellion against Christ, and Protestantism is in turn, a rebellion against Catholicism. Each one justifying itself in its own ways. And I know, from experience, that these justifications must be necessary even as the truth about me is not known or proclaimed by either Catholics or Protestants, and thus, justification for this failure must already be in process. But my main observation and statement concerning this is: [that] faith is more than rebellion and the justifications for it.

Angelo I was sent to this site, yep your right in the middle of it aren’t you? can’t leave these poor people alone, are you a lawyer??? you think like them. Let’s take a word and claim we know what Christ is refering to. The bible was translated. get it nothing was perfect in the translation, maybe he was refering to the comparson to him and his father, maybe he was refering to his light to his fathers light, what is good??? mean, I can’t believe you would chose this scripture to attack when their are so many good ones out there conterdiction, all over the place. But be gentle will our faith, it might waver. Oh by the way there are many worlds out there. Gods work continues to roll on without us, I don’t know how God can get along without us, we are so much smarter, aren’t we angelo, I mean we have been to college, trained by men, to serve others. to be slaves and not to think. Angelo want to be a GOD???

 

[Don_Hepler]

Also consider the words contained in the Blessing of Moses in Deuteronomy 33:8-11,

“And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah; Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant. They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.”

In my opinion, Christ’s tenor and words toward His mother and brothers (his family) may be intended to be held in the same regard as every other comparison Christ made of Himself and Moses-- as the copper serpent/ crucifixion, as manna/ bread of life, etc.-- which may have been related to persuade, and/or convince, believers that He, the Christ, is the Prophet, "like unto Moses."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19,
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

Angelo what is the Urim and thummim???this better be good

 

[1beleevr]

tantum ergo: Isn’t all of this, amatter of semantics; after before, during,etc., etc.,And the scripture does not explicitly say that they didn’t have sexual relations, so the debate is still on I can understand the catholic position, a lotmore clearly now, and it sort of makes sense, but then if you truly believe in God, and that He is sovereign, and is firmly ensconced on His throne, then aren’t ALL things POSSIBLE with God? I really believe that we will all go to our graves, still firmly clutching our own feelings about whether Mary was a perpetual virgin, although it does not have any bearing on our salvation:thumbsup:

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Angelo what is the Urim and Thummim???this better be good

At the time I posted the reply you are referring to I understood the Urim and Thummin to be similar to casting lots. And the scripture, “…Let thy Urim and Thummin be with thy holy one…” reminds me of something Einstein said, “God does not play dice with the world.” But, I do not know to what end Einstein was intending these words, and I am again reminded of Moses’ sister, Miriam, and brother, Aaron, and the time they provoked the Lord by slandering Moses.

Number chapter 12:All,
“And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it. (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.) And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out. And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them; and he departed. And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous. And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned. Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother’s womb. And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee. And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again. And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again. And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.”

Also visit, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim , for more information.