Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: The reason I said that “someone long ago believed”, was because, since there is no written evidence, save for oral tradition, then one is to presume that it was the collective belief that Mary did remain a virgin! And we really don’t know how long Joseph lived after Jesus was born, or if he and Mary had sexual relations, or other children, for that matter We know that Joseph lived at least 12 more years, and then there is the debate over Jesus’s brothers, or notDid Jesus speak(written or unwritten) about His mother’s virginity? And how have I disrespected the mother of Christ? By not believing in her perpetual virginity? That is weak Don’t ever underestimate the power of God, and His ability to do whatever He sees fit to do!!!

If we were to use your reasoning for the rest of the Bible…

Who wrote the Genesis? We are told it was Moses, who was born about the year 1400 BC. Wasn’t he putting in writing “oral traditions”? I’m sure you have no trouble accepting as truth events described by Moses that had taken place (more or less) 2500 years before he was born, and he did it without the aid of “written evidence”. Is one to presume then (based on your own reasoning), that it was the “collective belief” in Moses time that Adam was created by God, that Eve was created from one of his ribs, that Cain killed Abel? So, according to your reasoning, for the lack of “written evidence” in Adam’s time we should not believe Moses, just as Protestants don’t believe the writings of Church Fathers.

When I said that “we have Jesus as our witness” I was hoping that you would understand what I said it in the following sense:

Jesus is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. Jesus is God. He promised His Apostles that He Would be with them until the end of the World. He told them He would teach them to say “what you ought to say” (Luke 12:12). The Holy Spirit (God) told the Apostles and their successors about Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, whether or not the Apostles wrote about it (in plain English) in the NT books, but there is ample evidence in the Bible to attest to this… that is, if one knows how to read the Bible.

Nothing… nothing that the Catholic Church teaches is owed to “collective belief”. What the Church teaches becomes our “collective belief”, not the other way around. Besides, there are countless of writings of Church members that confirm that, from the very beginning of the Church that’s what has been taught about Mary.

By denying Her Perpetual Virginity it is not I who “underestimate the power of God, and His ability to do whatever He sees fit to do!!!”

God bless you

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: It is unfortunate, and sad that, for whatever reasons, there is divisiveness, even in the realm of believers!

I agree 100% with you.

That is why there are so many religions worldwideAnd maybe even subconsciously, churches DO put up barriers, and say, in essence,"If you want to be a part of our church; you ust do this, this, oh, and this too, at least once weekly! When will it end? When humility becomes the rule, rather than the exception! I can only imagine what shape this world would be in, if Jesus had offered salvation to only ONE group of people Thank goodness He offered it to ALL(John 3:16)

Hebrews 13:17, “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are concerned for your souls and are accountable for them. Let this be a joy for them rather than a burden, which would be of no advantage for you.”

There are no conditions, it’s an order. “Obey”. For 1500 years people were obedient. Then rebellion appeared. With our 21st Century understanding of the world many people believe that “democracy” should invade Christianity. Our 21st Century culture is so imbeded in our minds that when we read Hebrews 13:17 we usually think that “it was meant for past times, not for our time.” We are modern, free, we believe and have achieved democracy, etc. These are the times of “human rights”, not the times of “human duties”.

Who are these “leaders”? Where can we find them in biblical times, where can we find them today? Are they “one voice” or are they “thousands of voices”? Should we give a “coup d’état” to our leaders if they sin? The answer is no, and Jesus tells us that in Matthew 23:1-3, “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the Law and the Pharisees sat on the seat of Moses. So you shall do and observe all they say, but do not do as they do.’” Did He authorize His disciples to rebel? Of course not… “observe all they say…”

Did Luther observe what he was told? Remember he took an oath of obedience. Luther’s breaking from the Church was a big mistake. He forgot about Hebrews 13:17, he forgot about Matthew 23:1-3, he forgot also about:

John 10:16, “… there will be one flock since there is one Shepherd.”
John 17:21, “May they all be one as you Father are in me and I am in you. May they be one in us; so the world may believe that you have sent me.”
1 Corinthians 1:10, “I beg of you, brothers, in the name of Christ Jesus, our Lord, to agree among yourselves and do away with divisions; please be perfectly united, with one mind and one judgment.”

There are many more, but these are enough for the moment.

Please, think hard about these words, put yourself in Paul’s shoes, then put yourself in the Pope’s shoes, then in Luther’s shoes. Then, in light of these passages ask yourself, who was divisive? Who broke away? Who renounced to unity? Who rejected “the leaders”?

God bless you

 

[Angelo_Michael]

…]
Note to the reader(s):
I am deciding to try to make this my last post at this thread. Also, I have a disclaimer available at the private message board.

Correction:

Disclaimer available at the “Public Message Wall” in the “Public Profile” for “Angelo Michael”.

 

[1beleevr]

Well, hello there Don Helper: That was quite an interesting answer to my post If I didn’t know better, I’d say you were Jewish, or sympathetic to the Jews! And yes, even though the Jews, were God’s “chosen people,” they rejected the Messiah, which God had spoken about all through the prophets! Jesus told them on several occasions in the New Testament, that Isaiah had told them about the Messiah, who would be born of a virgin, be tortured, beaten, and hung on a cross! But the Jews, flatly rejected Jesus, and fulfilled the prophesies, by convincing the Romans, that He was a troublemaker for the Roman empire as well; thus getting the Romans to crucify Him, fulfilling the prophesies! And we Gentiles, were grafted in, since, in disobedience(something they were familiar with), the Jews turned their back on God, once again! And since the Jews rejected the New Testament, they rejected Jesus! Hebrews says that, “He died once for ALL!”. I for one believe that this means, all mankind! So, you see, I didn’t have to steal anything, it was offered as a gift to me by my Lord! Not challenging your viewpoint, just following Biblical facts!

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: There are people still today, who believe in the possibility that man never walked on the moon; that it was all a hoax, superbly choreographed with cameras, and television stages! And there are also doubts about whether ther was a second shooter, in the JFK assassination So no matter how much you beat us up with the club of catholicism, there will always be those who believe that Jesus had half brothers! Just because you guys say it, doesn’t make it right!

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: I do obey my leaders, both in my job, and my church! I just don’t obey your leaders, since I’m not catholic And I have also heard that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible! And I know that Jesus is our witness, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that He said anything about Mary’s virginity, one way or another! Matthew 1:25.

 

[w_stewart]

prieldedi: I do obey my leaders, both in my job, and my church! I just don’t obey your leaders, since I’m not catholic And I have also heard that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible! And I know that Jesus is our witness, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that He said anything about Mary’s virginity, one way or another! Matthew 1:25.

Where can you read in the Bible that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible?

 

[rbarcia]

The Bible, the inspired Word of God is quite clear on this subject. It’s not like one verse, but many that verify it. You can try to change the meaning of the word brother to cousin, but the context is clear.

Psalm 69: 7-8
7 Because for Your sake I have borne reproach;
Shame has covered my face.
8 I have become a stranger to my brothers,
And an alien to my mother’s children;
(If Mary did not have any children after Jesus, how can we say Jesus fulfilled prophecy)

Matthew 12
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him.

Matthew 13:55-56
55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”

John 2:12
12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.

John 7:2-5
2 Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. 3 His brothers therefore said to Him, “Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. 4 For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5 For even His brothers did not believe in Him.
(Note, his brothers did not believe in Him until Acts, this is a very good reason for Jesus to leave Mary with John. John himself is writing this. This fulfills Psalm 69)

Acts 1:14
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
(After the Resurrection, His brothers became believers. Maybe even through the witnessing of a faithful Mary, who knows)

Gal 1:19
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
(Does Paul who knows specifically we are all adopted sons through Christ have to specify a specific brother? He is talking about his qualifications as an apostle here)

Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus’ cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus’ mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: “Matt 1:25 → But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) **until **she gave birth to a son.

You have to interpret away simple word meanings to mean something else to justify a false teaching. Mary is a great woman, a model of faith for Christians, but not the mother of God to be worshiped, venerated, attribute co-mediator, idolize, etc…

There is nothing sinful with Mary having a children cause she is married. This does not make her an adulteress or anything like this. This is just strange teachings. She was a virgin to have Jesus to fulfill prophecy.

 

[1beleevr]

w_stewart: Probably the same place you would find the word purgatory, trinity, and Jesus commanding us to confess weekly to a priest! Read the post again, very s-l-o-w-l-y, and you will see, that I said, “I have HEARD that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible!”. I did not say that it was written in the Bible! Heck, the word Bible isn’t even in there!

 

[1beleevr]

rbarcia: Even if it were true, that Mary did not have other children, your post presented a great argument for the POSSIBILTY that she did Those who believe that she didn’t, try to beat those of us who at least entertain the notion that she, may POSSIBY have enjoyed the “fruits” of married life, and bore other children, into submission, with “oral tradition”, since no one really addressed th issue in print! I am one who believes in the power of the Almighty God, and that He can and did, and will bless those who love Him. It is an interesting and intriguing discussion, but ultimately, whether or not she had other children, does not affect our salvation, or eternal life:thumbsup.S. Let me state, that for the record, I lean more towards Mary having other children, in case it wasn’t clear! May the Lord of all creation, richly bless you

 

[abucs]

Rbarcia,

there is no other way to say it except that your interpretation is very late (read within the last couple of centuries).

There is no historical evidence or support for what you say in Christian history before the 19th century.

You are reading in English and using a reversion back to Greek without considering the Aramaic culture behind that writing. See my earlier post.

Tradition (the early church, the original church, the people who didn’t read scripture 2000 years later in English) says that Joseph was much older than Mary and died quite early. He certainly isn’t mentioned at the wedding of Cana at the start of Jesus’ ministry or at any time after that, which would support tradition.

So when the bible says that Mary was there with Jesus’ brothers, we know from the Aramaic culture and the way they translated to Greek in the old testamant that brothers can and does very often mean brethren.

Because Joseph had died and Mary was still there - saying Mary is Jesus’ brethren is not quite correct.

It is more correct to say Mary and his brethren - or as we read in the Greek (translated from Aramaic) Mary and his brothers.

n.b. it never says in the New Testamant - Mary’s children.

To say again. Your assertion is a very late invention. When you are cut off from the continuous Christian tradition, lots of things seem to make sense perfect because you are outside that tradition and have interpreted incorrectly.

 

[abucs]

We have to remember that Jesus started Christianity with his 12 disciples. That’s why he chose them.

Go and baptise in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Those sins you forgive are forgiven, those you don’t are not forgiven.
You are Cephas and on this Cephas i build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.
What you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, what you loose on earth shall be loose in Heaven.
Eat my body and drink my blood - do this as a memorial to me.

He did not say, Matthew you write a book and Peter get your son to do the same and hey there will be this guy Paul who is going to be killing you but he’ll end up being a good guy. Get his travelling companion Luke to write one as well. And collect all of Pauls letters that he will write to the different churches. And John, you are going to live a long time. Later in life, you write a book as well. You’re going to have these visions as well. Don’t worry, put that in the book and some of your own letters as well and include some letters that Peter, James and Jude will write as well.

Then the early Christian Church that will be built will put them altogether in a big book and that is what Christians should base their Christianity on. By the way, then everyone should leave that Christian Church and go and start up their own different churches who will read that book lots of different ways, each believing they have ‘the truth’ and they will have lots of continuous arguements with eachother. But this will be a good thing !

Jesus said nothing like that !!!

The Church decided which writings should be bound together to create a bible. They also thought about including 1st century letters by Pope Clement as well but decided against it. The bible was written, put together and decided by the church.

It is very important, but to take the churches Christian writings and reject that Christian church is a decision that Jesus never promoted.

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: There are people still today, who believe in the possibility that man never walked on the moon; that it was all a hoax, superbly choreographed with cameras, and television stages! And there are also doubts about whether ther was a second shooter, in the JFK assassination So no matter how much you beat us up with the club of catholicism, there will always be those who believe that Jesus had half brothers! Just because you guys say it, doesn’t make it right!

There are people that believe in Dan Brown’s “The Da Vinci Code”, the novel that presents Jesus as having married Mary Magdalene. Do people believing that Jesus married Mary Magdalene make it true?

The Truth is One and has been only with the Catholic Church no matter how much you beat us with the club of skepticism. This is not a matter of people believing what they want. This is about the Church that Jesus founded having the help from GOD for 2000 years and counting. This is a matter of Jesus PROMISE to be with His Church until the end of the World, a promise He has kept and will keep until the end of the world.

prieldedi: I do obey my leaders, both in my job, and my church! I just don’t obey your leaders, since I’m not catholic And I have also heard that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible! And I know that Jesus is our witness, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that He said anything about Mary’s virginity, one way or another! Matthew 1:25.

Luther and others broke away from the Church to form new churches. Luther and the others (your church founders) DID NOT obey their leaders. If you read Numbers Chapters 11, 12, 16, 21 (written by Moses himself), you’ll see how GOD deals with those who don’t OBEY their leaders. Even Paul refers to these chapters in 1 Corinthians 10:11 “These things happened to them as an example, and they were written as a warning for us, as the last times come upon us.” I wonder how Luther and the others, who thought they knew the Bible, could’ve miss these warnings. I would give Henry VIII the benefit of the doubt as he was just a king, nevertheless he also DID NOT obey his leaders, his spiritual leaders.

You are free to believe whom you want to believe. But if you really want to know the Truth, study history. Read the Church Fathers, read what countless of Christians wrote between the Resurrection and 1520. Don’t be satisfied with just reading from 1520 on, much less from the 1900’s on.

If you find that “Bible alone” was taught in all those centuries, if you find that Mary wasn’t believed and taught to be a Perpetual Virgin, if you find that Christians believed and taught that Jesus had blood brothers and sisters whose mother was Mary, if you find that Christians believed and taught that the Pope was not Peter successor, if you can show me that they were not Catholics united in One Church, with One Voice, One Gospel, One Leader, One Bible (now there are two), then I’ll stop being a Catholic.

Show me that the Christians in this list, the Church Fathers were not Catholics. I hope you’ll have the time and disposition to be your own judge, and as Solomon or any other judge, read what both sides have to say to this issue. I also invite you to read Luther and his followers. Compare both. If at the end you can show me that unity is in the Protestant churches and disunity is in the Catholic Church, then I’ll stop being a Catholic. If you can just show me that Luther, “the Reformer, the First Protestant Ever” did not believe in Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, then I’ll stop being a Catholic.

I often ask Protestants, if God was not with the Catholic Church in the 1500’s but with Luther, when did God abandon Luther? Why aren’t there just TWO churches: the Catholic and the Lutheran Churches? Why was “The Reformer” reformed?

You ask me, Where can you read in the Bible that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible? I ask you, where can you read in the Bible that the 66 books (in your Bible) are the ones that should be in the Bible? Where can you read in the Bible that Matthew wrote Matthew, that Mark wrote Mark, that Luke wrote Luke, that John wrote John? Nowhere. You know their names and their writers thanks to the Catholic Church. All you know about the Bible is thanks to the Catholic Church. Look at what the first protestant said:

“We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of GOD, that we received it from them, and that without them, we should have no knowledge of it at all.”
Martin Luther, commentary on St. John.

God bless you

 

[w_stewart]

w_stewart: Probably the same place you would find the word purgatory, trinity, and Jesus commanding us to confess weekly to a priest! Read the post again, very s-l-o-w-l-y, and you will see, that I said, “I have HEARD that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible!”. I did not say that it was written in the Bible! Heck, the word Bible isn’t even in there!

Fine. At least we agree that the Bible is not the sole rule of faith.

 

[Prieldedi]

You ask me, Where can you read in the Bible that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible? I ask you, where can you read in the Bible that the 66 books (in your Bible) are the ones that should be in the Bible? Where can you read in the Bible that Matthew wrote Matthew, that Mark wrote Mark, that Luke wrote Luke, that John wrote John? … etc

1beleevr:

I confused your reply with that of w_stewart. You did not ask me that question, it was w_stewart who asked you that question. Please accept my apologies.

God bless you

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: I would never ask anyone to stop being one thing or another, just as I would not like anyone asking me to stop being a believer! I don’t know a lot about Luther, but I do wonder what it was that would make him leave the church I have met many former catholics, infact, we have about 5 at our church, and I am always curious as to why they are “former” catholics! The answers vary from,“too many rules”, to “I have trouble confessing my sins to a total stranger”, to " I can only call God Holy Father." My father told me once that it was dangerous to discuss politics and religion, and he has been proved right more times than I care to remember! The reason is, these are two areas where people tend to get rather passionate, and sometimes obstinate about I was raised in a Southern Baptist home, but do not claim them as my denomination. I gave my life to Christ 42 years ago, and let me tell you, it has been a difficult,exhilerating, roller coaster ride, but He has sustained me, and restored me all these years. Contrary to popular belief, I do not hate any religion, ot its members(which includes catholics). Just because I don’t agree with you, does not mean I am persecuting you. When I use the word possibly, or possibility, it is in the right context, because, we don’t know for sure if it happened as someone said. Was Mary a virgin her whole life? Not sure! It does make it easier to venerate and worship her, and ask her to intercede for you to God(something else I have a problem with), especially when Christ is there to be our mediator. I have the utmost respect for you, and do not want to make you feel like your viewpoints are wrong, but if I converted, I would be a “cafeteria” cathoilc, and I know you wouldn’t want that. And BTW, you are forgiven for the faux pas in your previous post May the Lord of all of Heaven’s Armies, richly bless and keep you, and your family:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

w_stewart: At least you read it right this time Did you find trinity, purgatory or rapture in the Bible yet? It may not be the sole source of faith, but it is God’s inerrant Word! So the catholics took the Old Testament from the Jews, the New Testament from the early believers, put them together, and called it the Bible? And the catholic church was started by a Jew, right?

 

[abucs]

Catholics would say they kept the heritage of their Judaic roots and added their own Christian writings to form the bible.

Splitting ‘Catholics’ from the early believers is a supposition with no historical evidence.

If you are protesting against the Catholic Church but wanting their early writings as the basis of your faith then you have little choice but to arbitrarily declare that somewhere along the line true Christians died out and this new creation of the Catholic Church was formed who, 15 centuries later suddenly created real Christians again.

Apart from being illogical it has the mindset of God abandoning Christianity for 1500 years until Luther and now blesses all of the different deviations that have arisen since then.

New Protestant churches come up all the time and old ones die. Evangelicals are only about 100 years old. They will disentegrate just as the protestant churches they originally came from are also disentegrating. They do this because ‘they have no firm foundation’.

Deep down they know this, which is why they are very critical of the majority Catholic Church’s foundation and pretend that somewhere along the line, early Christians dissappeared and Catholics somehow re-appeared in their place.

It might work in a Dan Brown novel but not in the real world.

 

[Prieldedi]

Roman Catholics claim that these “brothers” were actually Jesus’ cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for “brother” is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for “cousin,” and it was not used…

Well, if “brother” means literally “brother” and there is no other meaning but biological sons of the same father and mother, I would like to call your attention to the extended family of Paul.

Paul’s parents had lots of sons and sisters, one was named Ananias, whom Paul apparently barely knew.

Acts 22:12-13, “There a certain Ananias came to me. He was a devout observer of the Law and well spoken of by all the Jews who were living there. As he stood by me, he said: ‘Brother Saul, recover your sight.’ At that moment I could see and I looked at him.”

Acts 9:17, “So Ananias left and went to the house. He laid his hands upon Saul and said, “Saul, my brother, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on your way here, has sent me to you so that you may receive your sight and be filled with Holy Spirit.””

Another son was Timothy…

Colossians 1:1, “Paul, apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God and Timothy our brother.”

Other was Tychicus…

Colossians 4,7, “Tychicus will give news of me. He is our dear brother and for me a faithful assistant and fellow worker for the Lord.”

Let’s not forget Onesimus…

Colossians 4,9, “With him I am sending Onesimus, our faithful and dear brother, who is one of yours. They will tell you about everything that is happening here.”

The High Priest and the whole Council were also Paul’s parents sons.

Acts 22:30 “The next day the commander wanted to know for certain the charges the Jews were making against Paul. So he released him from prison and called together the High Priest and the whole Council; and they brought Paul down and made him stand before them.”
Acts 23:1, “Paul looked directly at the Council and said, “Brothers, to this day I have lived my life with a clear conscience before God.””

Some of the sons of Paul’s parents were Saducees, some were Pharisees.

Acts 23:6, “Paul knew that part of the Council were Sadducees and others Pharisees; so he spoke out in the Council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, son of a Pharisee. It is for the hope in the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial here.””

The leaders of the Jews were also sons of Paul’s parents.

Acts 28:17, "After three days, Paul called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them: “Brothers, though I have not done anything against our people or against the traditions of our fathers, I was arrested in Jerusalem and handed over to the Romans.”

Other sons and daughters of Paul’s parents had moved to Rome.

Romans 1:13, “You must know, brothers and sisters, that many times I have made plans to go to you, but till now I have been prevented.”

While others to Corinth…

1 Corinthians 1:10, “I beg of you, brothers, in the name of Christ Jesus, our Lord, to agree among yourselves and do away with divisions; please be perfectly united, with one mind and one judgment.”

And Galatia…

Galatians 1:11, “Let me remind you, brothers and sisters, that the Gospel we preached to you is not a human message,”

And Ephesus, where Tychicus went…

Ephesians 6:21, “I also want you to know how I am and what I am doing. Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful minister in the Lord, will tell you everything.”

Still others were in Philippi…

Philippians 1:12, “I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that what has happened to me has served to advance the Gospel.”

Thessalonica…

1 Thessalonias 2:14, “Brothers and sisters, you followed the example of the churches of God in Judea, churches of Christ Jesus. For you suffered from your compatriots the same trials they suffered from the Jews,”

And Colossae, also visited by Tychicus…

Colossians 1,2, “to the saints in Colossae, our faithful brothers and sisters in Christ: Receive grace and peace from God our Father, and Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Just as you said, “in each instance, the specific Greek word for brother is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother”.

God bless you

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: I would never ask anyone to stop being one thing or another, just as I would not like anyone asking me to stop being a believer! I don’t know a lot about Luther, but I do wonder what it was that would make him leave the church I have met many former catholics, infact, we have about 5 at our church, and I am always curious as to why they are “former” catholics! The answers vary from,“too many rules”, to “I have trouble confessing my sins to a total stranger”, to " I can only call God Holy Father." My father told me once that it was dangerous to discuss politics and religion, and he has been proved right more times than I care to remember! The reason is, these are two areas where people tend to get rather passionate, and sometimes obstinate about I was raised in a Southern Baptist home, but do not claim them as my denomination. I gave my life to Christ 42 years ago, and let me tell you, it has been a difficult,exhilerating, roller coaster ride, but He has sustained me, and restored me all these years. Contrary to popular belief, I do not hate any religion, ot its members(which includes catholics). Just because I don’t agree with you, does not mean I am persecuting you. When I use the word possibly, or possibility, it is in the right context, because, we don’t know for sure if it happened as someone said. Was Mary a virgin her whole life? Not sure! It does make it easier to venerate and worship her, and ask her to intercede for you to God(something else I have a problem with), especially when Christ is there to be our mediator. I have the utmost respect for you, and do not want to make you feel like your viewpoints are wrong, but if I converted, I would be a “cafeteria” cathoilc, and I know you wouldn’t want that. And BTW, you are forgiven for the faux pas in your previous post May the Lord of all of Heaven’s Armies, richly bless and keep you, and your family:thumbsup:

I didn’t ask you to stop being what you are. We are expressing our Churches’ teachings to one another. When you doubt about the teachings of the Catholic Church all I try to do is explain it the to the best of my abilities. And contrary to what many protestants believe, ALL that the Catholic Church teaches is biblical. Everything.

You should read about Luther. He is part of Christian history. Cardinal John Newman, a convert from Anglicanism said it best in regards to historical documents: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant."

My mother was a Baptist. She converted to Catholicism when she was 19, 60 years ago. So both sides trade members.

We Catholics know for sure Mary is Ever Virgin. It’s a revelation from God. It’s biblical. You’ve read all the passages and their meanings that others have posted before on this matter. No one can deny it’s biblical. You are free to believe it or not. No one is forcing you to believe in it. But our explanation cannot be accused of not being biblical.

Mary is an intercessor. Is She dead? No, She is alive! Isn’t our faith that of Eternal life? She interceded for the newlyweds in Cana. That established Her intercessory role. She even changed Jesus public life beginnings! She ordered God to change His plans! And God obeyed Her!!!

Luther couldn’t and wouldn’t accept authority. There are more than 1 billion Catholics worldwide. 99.99% of Catholics have no problem with the authority of the Pope, with the “rules”, with confession. To us these are things like taxes, they are part of life. It’s human nature to feel “uncomfortable” at times, but we recognize it’s divine origin.

No hard feelings, I’m glad we can express our thought with respect and understanding of each other. I understand your doubts about Mary and her role in God’s plan. Non Christians would not believe Catholics nor Protestants, and they would use your same argument: isn’t there the possibility, just the possibility, that there is no God? But we know better, don’t we?

God bless you