Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[Angelo_Michael]

Flattery? When did I use flattery?

I did not direct my comment toward you or anyone in particular but intended it as a general analysis of the error and hypocrisy inherent in the adoration of Mary concommitant with the trespassing of Christ’s mandates. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

 

[Don_Hepler]

Amen!

P.S;

Mormons believe that God was a man once and that he walked the Earth just like Christ did, flesh and blood!

I missed the question, are you Mormon and your stating a belief?

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Your theory is interesting, I collect books from Religious sects, and occasional other books not religiously associated. I found a old book, there was no Cover to it for is gone, and a few pages were torn off. However the ones that were readable were most interesting. I believe it is a religious book That was translated anciently I found this in my travels, discarded. I know that the dead sea scrolls caused much interest to me but don’t think of this that it is anything except for what it is, I look at it as a treasure that I have found. I thought I would share this with you because of what you have pondered. Here it goes…And calling upon the name of God, he beheld his glory again, for it was upon him; and he heard a voice, saying; Blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee, and thou shalt be made stronger than many waters; for they shall obey thy command as if thou wert God. And lo, I am with thee, even unto the end of thy days; for thou shalt deliver my people from bondage, even Israel my chosen. And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God. And their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore. And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. And It came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them: And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God and talked with him Face to face, And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things, Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds, that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man, but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. And It came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying; The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. and as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as naught and take many of them from the book which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another like unto thee; and they shall be had again among the children of men among as many as shall believe…I thought you would like this as we ponder… are we alone… God bless

Thanks for sharing. It is sort of reminiscent of the Testament of Abraham and 4 Ezra/2 Esdras a bit in that Moses, like Abraham and Ezra, is questioning God about the world and why things are the way they are. And the response is somewhat similar, in at least one extent, as I remember in 4 Ezra the two ages – the one that is and the one that is yet to be – were likened to Esau and Jacob, with Jacob representing the new age and Esau representing the old.

from above:

“and as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.”

 

[Zundrah]

I did not direct my comment toward you or anyone in particular but intended it as a general analysis of the error and hypocrisy inherent in the adoration of Mary concommitant with the trespassing of Christ’s mandates. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

I am not a mormon! I was merely telling you about what they believe!

 

[Zundrah]

I did not direct my comment toward you or anyone in particular but intended it as a general analysis of the error and hypocrisy inherent in the adoration of Mary concommitant with the trespassing of Christ’s mandates. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

LOL - sorry, itz okay I thought I had said something wrong!

Blessings

 

[Don_Hepler]

Thanks for sharing. It is sort of reminiscent of the Testament of Abraham and 4 Ezra/2 Esdras a bit in that Moses, like Abraham and Ezra, is questioning God about the world and why things are the way they are. And the response is somewhat similar, in at least one extent, as I remember in 4 Ezra the two ages – the one that is and the one that is yet to be – were likened to Esau and Jacob, with Jacob representing the new age and Esau representing the old.

from above:

“and as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.”

I don’t know about the representing part with Esau and Jacob. But Esau is now broken the yoke of his brother Jacob and is at the head of our country. Esau is claiming his birthright, to rule over Jacob and to put to death Jacobs lineage, and kill all christens because Jesus came through Jacob lineage. Esau has now gained power to rule over the world. Claiming BIRTHRIGHT.

 

[Don_Hepler]

I am not a mormon! I was merely telling you about what they believe!

If you are not Mormon, then how do you know this is what they believe?

 

[Zundrah]

If you are not Mormon, then how do you know this is what they believe?

Oh my good Lord, you are obviously mormon aren’t you? Go and do some research!

 

[YADA]

The scripture says that Joseph did not have sex with her while she was pregnant, but that doesn’t mean that they never had sex after. Where is the scripture that says that Mary did not have children after Christ? Show me that scripture and then I will believe you.

Where is the passage that clearly states that Mary and Joseph “knew” each other at any point in time? WHere is it stated that Mary and Joseph engaged in a carnal married relationship after Jesus was consecrated in the Temple or attained the age of two years [6 weeks, 10 years, etc]?

Where is the passage that clearly states that “Male Person X” or “Female Person Y” is a chil born of the womb of Mary? Where dies it say something like … " ‘Male Person X’, second born child of Mary, and brother brother of Jesus …" ?

You show me a passage that clearly states they engaged in marital relations or that clearly identifies a person as being born of that union [Mary and Joseph] then I will believe you …

Was Jesus the result of and was Mary raped by a Roman Soldier ?.. This is the conclusion of Bishop Spong …

Was Jesus married to Mary of Magdela as many “DaVinci Code” types believe?

Are the royals of Europe related to Jesus by a blood line as many people today believe? …

Why do you stray from the core beliefs of your foundational leaders? What meakes this new idea that Mary had other children, was not perpetually a virgin so tenable for you against the witness of the first and earliest CHristians and even the first Protestants?

Do you just consider yourself too sophisticated to believe something you consider superstitious or the creation of ignorant Christians from the “Dark Ages”? What is it?

 

[Zundrah]

Where is the passage that clearly states that Mary and Joseph “knew” each other at any point in time? WHere is it stated that Mary and Joseph engaged in a carnal married relationship after Jesus was consecrated in the Temple or attained the age of two years [6 weeks, 10 years, etc]?

Where is the passage that clearly states that “Male Person X” or “Female Person Y” is a chil born of the womb of Mary? Where dies it say something like … " ‘Male Person X’, second born child of Mary, and brother brother of Jesus …" ?

You show me a passage that clearly states they engaged in marital relations or that clearly identifies a person as being born of that union [Mary and Joseph] then I will believe you …

Was Jesus the result of and was Mary raped by a Roman Soldier ?.. This is the conclusion of Bishop Spong …

Was Jesus married to Mary of Magdela as many “DaVinci Code” types believe?

Are the royals of Europe related to Jesus by a blood line as many people today believe? …

Why do you stray from the core beliefs of your foundational leaders? What meakes this new idea that Mary had other children, was not perpetually a virgin so tenable for you against the witness of the first and earliest CHristians and even the first Protestants?

Do you just consider yourself too sophisticated to believe something you consider superstitious or the creation of ignorant Christians from the “Dark Ages”? What is it?

…you are talking about fiction, most of your post I have never heard of.
The bible said;

Matthew 1:25
25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

And also the bible says this;

Mark 3:31-35

Jesus’ Mother and Brothers
31Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

LOL - this is not fiction.

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Although I have only recently begun to question my assumption that Mary had other children I have not been enticed formerly by theories that try to disprove Christ’s divinity or make Him out to have a [physical] wife and children. Nor have I had empathy for Judas Iscariot due to a gospel attributed to him, or any other matter. It seems unfair to me to link the assumption or assertion that Mary had other children in the same category as these other deviations as the subject is represented in many translations as [potentially] fact. Also, because of the alternate translations that also do not coincide with other original content, and the mishandling of doctrines of Christ first entrusted to the apostles. Moreover, the existence of siblings does not necesarily render Christ void of divinity, make Him a husband or father of children, or attempt to override His judgment against Judas Iscariot.

 

[Don_Hepler]

Oh my good Lord, you are obviously mormon aren’t you? Go and do some research!

Nice try

 

[Don_Hepler]

Oh my good Lord, you are obviously mormon aren’t you? Go and do some research!

what research???

 

[Don_Hepler]

Although I have only recently begun to question my assumption that Mary had other children I have not been enticed formerly by theories that try to disprove Christ’s divinity or make Him out to have a [physical] wife and children. Nor have I had empathy for Judas Iscariot due to a gospel attributed to him, or any other matter. It seems unfair to me to link the assumption or assertion that Mary had other children in the same category as these other deviations as the subject is represented in many translations as [potentially] fact. Also, because of the alternate translations that also do not coincide with other original content, and the mishandling of doctrines of Christ first entrusted to the apostles. Moreover, the existence of siblings does not necesarily render Christ void of divinity, make Him a husband or father of children, or attempt to override His judgment against Judas Iscariot.

your Awesome Angelo, your on the right track, Logic is taking over, Now translations have been alter, Your right It doesn’t make Christ void of Divinity, but makes him greater, If God is our Father, and we are his children, Then God has to have a wife, so we can become the child…psalms 82:6 Keep pondering and praying your getting it. Your becoming more and more like me. LOL

 

[Don_Hepler]

…you are talking about fiction, most of your post I have never heard of.
The bible said;

And also the bible says this;

LOL - this is not fiction.

Give up zundrah you’ll never lead the blind, their eyes will never be opened, they are trained not to think, and their reasoning has gone out the Door. your scriptures are true, God will just have to sort them out when they get to the other side.

 

[Angelo_Michael]

I don’t know about the representing part with Esau and Jacob. But Esau is now broken the yoke of his brother Jacob and is at the head of our country. Esau is claiming his birthright, to rule over Jacob and to put to death Jacobs lineage, and kill all christens because Jesus came through Jacob lineage. Esau has now gained power to rule over the world. Claiming BIRTHRIGHT.

Here’s 4 Ezra 6:1-34:

“And he said unto me, In the beginning, when the earth was made, before the borders of the world stood, or ever the winds blew, Before it thundered and lightened, or ever the foundations of paradise were laid, Before the fair flowers were seen, or ever the moveable powers were established, before the innumerable multitude of angels were gathered together, Or ever the heights of the air were lifted up, before the measures of the firmament were named, or ever the chimneys in Sion were hot, And ere the present years were sought out, and or ever the inventions of them that now sin were turned, before they were sealed that have gathered faith for a treasure: Then did I consider these things, and they all were made through me alone, and through none other: by me also they shall be ended, and by none other. Then answered I and said, What shall be the parting asunder of the times? or when shall be the end of the first, and the beginning of it that followeth? And he said unto me, From Abraham unto Isaac, when Jacob and Esau were born of him, Jacob’s hand held first the heel of Esau. For Esau is the end of the world, and Jacob is the beginning of it that followeth. The hand of man is betwixt the heel and the hand: other question, Esdras, ask thou not. I answered then and said, O Lord that bearest rule, if I have found favour in thy sight, I beseech thee, shew thy servant the end of thy tokens, whereof thou shewedst me part the last night. So he answered and said unto me, Stand up upon thy feet, and hear a mighty sounding voice. And it shall be as it were a great motion; but the place where thou standest shall not be moved. And therefore when it speaketh be not afraid: for the word is of the end, and the foundation of the earth is understood. And why? because the speech of these things trembleth and is moved: for it knoweth that the end of these things must be changed. And it happened, that when I had heard it I stood up upon my feet, and hearkened, and, behold, there was a voice that spake, and the sound of it was like the sound of many waters. And it said, Behold, the days come, that I will begin to draw nigh, and to visit them that dwell upon the earth, And will begin to make inquisition of them, what they be that have hurt unjustly with their unrighteousness, and when the affliction of Sion shall be fulfilled; And when the world, that shall begin to vanish away, shall be finished, then will I shew these tokens: the books shall be opened before the firmament, and they shall see all together: And the children of a year old shall speak with their voices, the women with child shall bring forth untimely children of three or four months old, and they shall live, and be raised up. And suddenly shall the sown places appear unsown, the full storehouses shall suddenly be found empty: And tha trumpet shall give a sound, which when every man heareth, they shall be suddenly afraid. At that time shall friends fight one against another like enemies, and the earth shall stand in fear with those that dwell therein, the springs of the fountains shall stand still, and in three hours they shall not run. Whosoever remaineth from all these that I have told thee shall escape, and see my salvation, and the end of your world. And the men that are received shall see it, who have not tasted death from their birth: and the heart of the inhabitants shall be changed, and turned into another meaning. For evil shall be put out, and deceit shall be quenched. As for faith, it shall flourish, corruption shall be overcome, and the truth, which hath been so long without fruit, shall be declared. And when he talked with me, behold, I looked by little and little upon him before whom I stood. And these words said he unto me; I am come to shew thee the time of the night to come. If thou wilt pray yet more, and fast seven days again, I shall tell thee greater things by day than I have heard. For thy voice is heard before the most High: for the Mighty hath seen thy righteous dealing, he hath seen also thy chastity, which thou hast had ever since thy youth. And therefore hath he sent me to shew thee all these things, and to say unto thee, Be of good comfort and fear not And hasten not with the times that are past, to think vain things, that thou mayest not hasten from the latter times.”

**From what I understand Ezra is a descendant of Aaron (Moses’ older brother), even Phinehas, who slew the fornicators and stayed the plague of the Lord.

P.S.: I’ll try to pick up a conversation with you at your thread, “What is truth?” Things like this will be more appropriate there.**

 

[Prieldedi]

What is the importance of Mary being a virgin? Does it matter? I still believe in Christ, even if Mary was a virgin or not.

Yes, it matters because it took more than 1500 years before anyone started to promote the idea that Mary was not a perpetual Virgin. When Luther gave the “green light” to anyone to interpret the Bible on their own, it was just a matter of time before someone would read the passage about “the brethren of the Lord” and come to the wrong conclusion. Luther himself lamented his deed when he penned the following remarks:

“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet.” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, The Facts About Luther, 208.

Luther was not the man who started to deny Mary’s perpetual virginity. I understand no protestant did it in the 1500s and I also understand that it took place later, perhaps 100 or more years after Luther’s rebellion. I don’t know when and where, I wish I would.

Denying Mary’s perpetual virginity is denying the Word of God, the very Bible. Saint Augustine said “The New Testament lies hidden in the Old. The Old Testament is revealed in the New.” There are so many passages in the Bible (some hidden, some out in the clear) that confirm Mary’s perpetual virginity, Her role in God’s plan, Her Immaculate Conception, that She was sinless, that She is the Mother of God, that She is the Queen of Heaven and Mother of the Church.

You cannot accept just “part” of the Word of God. His Word is to be taken totally. The Catholic Church is the one that had preserved the Word of God for 1500+ years until the Body of Christ was divided. She still preserves it. But the Unity was broken, and after 300 years (in the 1850s) there were less than 400 Protestant denominations. Today there are more than 39,000 just in the USA with many of them practicing and teaching a gospel so distant from the one that Luther taught, which in turn was also distant from the one taught by the Apostles.

To believe that the Early Church deviated from the Gospel taught by Jesus is to deny Jesus own words, that is, it’s to deny (again) the Word of God:

Matthew 28:20 "… and teach them to fulfill all that I have commanded you. I am with you always until the end of this world."

The world didn’t end in the 2nd Century AD after the death of the last of the Apostles, and Jesus is not a liar. “I’m with You always”…

You say you believe in Christ. I ask you, do you believe in His Word? This is God’s Word through Mary:

Luke 1:48, “Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid: for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me Blessed.”

Do you really believe in His Word? Do you believe She is Blessed? Do you call her Blessed?

God bless you

 

[Angelo_Michael]

Though many times I have read the argument that private interpretation of the Bible is sinister, I think it is a too all inclusive judgment because it implies that an impure motive is automatically associated with it. For me, during various traumatic events, I believed I had seen the Christ. Also, I had been told many times that Christ was, in essence, anti-Christ, and I wondered how this conclusion was reached as I knew the one making the statement had also read the Bible. So, for me, perhaps my initial investigation into scripture was to decipher how someone could, “get it wrong.” Moreover, it was only until then that I understood the implications that some may have inferred when I told them I saw, or thought I saw, the Christ.

 

[avflf]

P.S;Mormons believe that God was a man once and that he walked the Earth just like Christ did, flesh and blood!

Don’t you? As a Christian you should know that God took human form and visited with Abram and Sarai on his way to check the truth of the rumors that Sodom was queer town

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If Mary and Joseph had more children, why is it that:

A. None of the so-called “brothers of Jesus” had the Virgin Mary as their mother. All can be proven (by Scripture) to have had a different mother than the Virgin.

Let’s take “James the brother of the Lord” who is referred to also as an apostle. So we know it is one of the two “James” who are mentioned as a apostles.

Well, we know ONE James is also the brother of John --the 'sons of Zebedee". Zebedee is not Joseph. . .therefore, this James cannot be the son of Joseph, can he?

What about the other James? HE is the son of Alpheus. Alpheus is not Joseph, either.

Therefore we know at least ONE of the so-called “brothers of the Lord” is not a biological brother. . .neither James is the son of Joseph. And since only Joseph is mentioned as the husband of Mary. . .neither James is a son of MARY either.

Right there is one of the clearest possible proofs (since many Protestants refuse to accept Tradition or the authority of the Church) that “brother of the Lord” does not necessarily mean ‘biological brother’.

Because I used only Scripture itself to prove that “James the brother of the Lord” is not, according to Scripture, the biological son of Joseph and Mary.