Jesus was an only son.. Mary did not have more children!!

[avflf]

So now here’s the big question…

How do you know this about God?

I’m not sure, it came to me … probably influenced by something I read. Maybe even by direct revelation? A force that permeates all matter throughout the universe like Paul wrote Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;… A force that should one be able to tap into it one would be able to do all things. One way is prayer, the focusing of one’s thought to effect an action that can even be regarded as supernatural. Miracles are such manifestations. Look at it as electricity, anyone that finds the switch brings the light on. Now the question remains - is this force an intelligent entity or is it just a force self programmed to create, continuously?
To be honest I do not know, but it makes more sense than those at present worshipped by man.

 

[1beleevr]

goodfella: So, what is your point???

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi: And once again, we disagree. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy written about Him, against astronomical odds One of these prophecies, was that Jesus would be betrayed and hung on tree(Cross). The Jewish High Council, knowing that they had no authority to execute anyone, had to convince the Romans to crucify Him. God allowed Satan to enter Judas, thereby setting up the betrayal. But, of course, Judas had to get close to and befriend Jesus; to complete the evil deed! It has nothing to do with predestination, God regularly “used” people all throughout history to facilitate His will. In this case, it just happened to be Judas! Can you imagine what the Jews would have thought, if they had realized Who they were crucifying?

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: Only according to your understanding! Been consummated, redeemed, and made a coheir with Christ!

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger: Just re-read post#875, and considering the twists that this thread has taken;and in the interest of having some fun, came up with the following dialogue.Q:So, tell me, is belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity necessary for salvation?AI’ve been told that it is! Q: Do you believe that? A: Well, umm, sure! Q: You don’t sound particularly sure of your answer! Why do you believe it? A: Someone said that the apostles taught it a long time ago, as being part of the Gospel! Q: And where do you suppose the apostles got it? A: From Jesus, I guess! Q:You mean you’re not totally sure? A: No, not totally sure! Q: Why would you believe in something you’re not 100% sure of?A: It’s all part of how I was raised! I see; so what will happen to those who don’t accept Mary’s perpetual virginity as part of salvation?A: Not really sure about that, either! I think maybe God has the answer to that question!

 

[1beleevr]

goodfella: Nobody said that God was responsible for our sins! And WE Christians, and nonchristians alike, do indeed have a free will! Sometimes this is to our detriment, but I think that PERHAPS God wanted to give us the opportunity to choose Him, or choose Hell. And I do belie ve tht even though Judas had free will, he was used by both God and Satan to accomplish His plan!

 

[PRmerger]

prmerger: Only according to your understanding! Been consummated, redeemed, and made a coheir with Christ!

Ok. According to* your *understanding, (which uses the Bible alone, right?) where does the Bible say you’ve been consummated? Is consummated in the Bible? If not, then how do you know you’ve consummated and been ONE FLESH with Christ?

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure, it came to me … probably influenced by something I read. Maybe even by direct revelation? A force that permeates all matter throughout the universe like Paul wrote Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;… A force that should one be able to tap into it one would be able to do all things. One way is prayer, the focusing of one’s thought to effect an action that can even be regarded as supernatural. Miracles are such manifestations. Look at it as electricity, anyone that finds the switch brings the light on. Now the question remains - is this force an intelligent entity or is it just a force self programmed to create, continuously?
To be honest I do not know, but it makes more sense than those at present worshipped by man.

I respect your honesty, avflf, in admitting that you really don’t know where you get your understanding of the Divine. It indicates a humble heart, and if you continue to search for God, you will find the Truth, I am certain of that!

HOWEVER, with that being said, “it came to me” is really a peculiar basis for understanding the Divine. Really, avflf? I mean, come on, now. That which your human mind can conceive is infinitesimal compared to what God has revealed.

Put yourself in the company of the greatest thinkers of theology–Aquinas, Augustine, Confucius, Pope JPII–not a single one of those ever claimed such a peculiar method for understanding the numinous.

 

[Good_Fella]

goodfella: Nobody said that God was responsible for our sins! And WE Christians, and nonchristians alike, do indeed have a free will! Sometimes this is to our detriment, but I think that PERHAPS God wanted to give us the opportunity to choose Him, or choose Hell. And I do belie ve tht even though Judas had free will, he was used by both God and Satan to accomplish His plan!

You mentioned that Judas is a bad example of one who initially has faith in Jesus before he eventually loses it. He could be no different than the rest of the faithful unless he had no free will and was used by God as a passive instrument. If Judas hadn’t betrayed Jesus, then the Sanhedrin would have found some other way to arrest our Lord. Neither God nor the Jewish elders relied on Judas alone. God absolutely relied on nobody, including the Sanhedrin.

PAX :heaven:

 

[guanophore]

I guess the thief on the cross won’t be seeing Christ anytime soon.

Why would you say this? Do you not think he “persevered until the end”? After his profession of faith, do you think he denied Christ later?

You are saved at the time you recieve and believe Christ to be your Lord and Saviour. That is not hard to understand.

You have misunderstood what the Apostles believed and taught. These kinds of misunderstandings come from reading one or two verses in isolation, instead of receiving the gospel as a whole, entire, seamless garment.

Sanctification is a person being set apart for the kingdom of God. That person is already set apart.

Then what need is there to distinguish between them? If one has already “arrived” at being made perfect for God, there does not seem to be a need for anything else.

Being born again and being saved IS the same thing.

This statement represents an error emanating from modern american fundamentalism. It bears no resemblance to what the Apostles taught.

If you say santification is a life long process then how do you know you have done enough to enter the kingdom of God when you die. What if you get to heaven Christ says “sorry you missed it by this much”.

This question does not make any sense. It is God who sanctifies us, by His grace. i don’t see what “doing enough” has to do with anything. Do you believe you are responsible for sanctifying yourself?

Again being saved is an action that occurs when a sinner truly repents of their sins and accepts Christ. You no Longer have to worry whether you do enough works.

I think you are suffering from a deficient understanding of salvation, however, I do agree that it is not related to “enough works”.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, let’s say for the sake of argument, that I believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity. The discussion has morphed into whether or not this belief is necessary for salvation,

That is because YOU morphed it, 1beleevr. When Catholics insist that the Truth of the gospel must be a unified whole, you contend that no, it can be carved up according to each individual’s personal preferences.

given all the other verses which tell US,"all who call upon the Name of Jesus will be saved," or "turn back to God for forgiveness of your sins, repent, be baptized(I like full immersion) in the Name of Jesus, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit," "whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life."

What you are doing is separating out a few verses, and building your doctrine of salvation upon them. In doing so, you exclude what the remainder of the scriptures have to say about salvation (especially those that indicate that one can fail to obtain it). You also exclude what the Apostles believed and taught about these concepts. You are distilling your own theology from scripture outside of the context in which Scripture was written (the Church).

Is it a requirement for salvation? We don’t know! Did Jesus tell His disciples that belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity was necessary for salvation?

Well, speak for yourself! You may refuse to accept what has been handed down to us from the Apostles, but we do. One of those truths is that Mary never had any other children. Another is that we are not to parse up the message and declare some parts “non-essential”. We are to receive the “whole gospel” and it is to be kept together.

Are all of us Christians who don't believe it is necessary, unsaved:eek:?We do read the words of the apostles, and we do know that through the Holy Spirit, we can and do enjoy a personal relationship with Christ! HALLELUJAH!!!:thumbsup:

The Apostles also taught us not to judge the eternal state of the soul, and that salvation is up to God. You do read the words of the Apostles, and that is better than nothing. You stand in the shadow of Apollos. Your refusal to accept the whole gospel as it was committed once for all to the Church is a curious puzzle.

 

[guanophore]

Hey, elvisman: I don’t see anything wrong with remembering the day that the Holy Spirit convicyrd your heart of its’ sin, and you finally said YES to Jesus’s offer of salvation! Most of US realize that salvation, is an ongoing process, and God is continually molding us and shaping US into what He wants us to look like(more like Christ). But that day(May 15,1967, for me) was the beginning of our NEW life in Christ("Behold, I stand at the door and knock). But, it is not a “slam dunk”, as you call it! Similarly, confirmation is not the final answer, but a beginning! Curious though, why Janet1983, would say that she was raised catholic, and then got saved in 2007Wasn’t she saved at confirmation?

I don’t see anything wrong with it either, but not everyone has a single date. Some of use had a gradual series of dates or years when they were convicted. Not all conversion experiences are Road to Damascus types. Some of us have been saying “yest” to Jesus’ offer of salvation since we were old enough to say "yes’, and there was never a time when they thought of themselves as “unsaved”.

Janet was justified by the blood of Jesus through baptism when she was an infant. She was never properly catechized, and did not understand the nature of salvation, so she believes that she was saved when she asked Jesus into her heart. It is always a good thing to ask Jesus into one’s heart. Daily communicants do this during liturgy.

 

[guanophore]

prmerger: Thank you for your correspondence; always enjoy your posts! So Acts 2:38 is the order, so to speak of salvation? And I suppose it doesn’t matter whether you are sprinkled or fully immersed, when it comes to baptism!

The Catholic Church follows the Apostolic Teaching found in the Didache, published about the same time as the gospel of John. However, “sprinkling” is a misunderstanding of Apostolic baptism. If there is not enough water to immerse, then water is POURED.

The sprinkling is a ceremonial reminder of the baptismal waters, just as the holy water font is.

It is God who saves, by grace through faith. We are saved through water, just as Noah and his family were saved through the water.

 

[guanophore]

prmerger: Don’t be so sensitive I do not disparage the apdstolic teaching, just wondering if they have been passed down pristinely???

People wonder about such things who cannot trust Jesus at His Word. Such questions come from minds that believe he abandoned his promises, left them orphans, failed to bring to their minds what He taught. Such wonderments reveal that the HS cannot be trusted to lead them into all Truth, or to preserve the sacred deposit that was instilled by the laying on of hands. Such wonderments reveal the mind of one who does not believe God will watch over His Word to perform it, or that His Word will not go forth to accomplish what He intends. Such wonderment considers God weak, lazy, or indifferent to His promises.

****And, I know this is probably not the entire list of essentials for salvation, but belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity, seems to be absent Disparage; that’s an awfully mean word, don’t you think?

The fact that you believe you can compose your own “list of essentials for salvation” is itself a departure from what the Apostles believed and taught.

Your “wonderings” are clearly a disparagement of the nature and character of God. You indicate that you don’t believe He is bigger than the fallible men to whom He committed His message.

 

[guanophore]

prmerger: Apparently, you do not have a scripture verse, outlining primary and secondary essentials for salvation either At least not for belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity, being a requirement for salvation Sounds good though

But we DO have verses that state the gospel is one, whole, indivisible, and preserved by God in the Church.

 

[guanophore]

You seem to come highly qualified so could you please answer the poor chap and lay his fears to rest? Is the belief in Mary’s perpetual virginity necessary for salvation? YES or NO? Thanks.

What is necessary is that the Gospel not be divided. This is part of the whole gospel of God. Problems occur as soon as we begin to carve parts out that we think are “non-essential”. Jesus commissioned the Apsotles to teach “all that I have commanded”. He did not authorize them to disassemble it, then try to reassemble according to their own ideas.

 

[avflf]

I respect your honesty, avflf, in admitting that you really don’t know where you get your understanding of the Divine. It indicates a humble heart, and if you continue to search for God, you will find the Truth, I am certain of that!

The way I see it none of us will ever come close to know THE TRUTH

HOWEVER, with that being said, “it came to me” is really a peculiar basis for understanding the Divine. Really, avflf? I mean, come on, now. That which your human mind can conceive is infinitesimal compared to what God has revealed.

Why are you so surprised. You believe that the writers of the Bible were inspired, one could say it also “came to them”

Put yourself in the company of the greatest thinkers of theology–Aquinas, Augustine, Confucius, Pope JPII–not a single one of those ever claimed such a peculiar method for understanding the numinous.

They (the Christian ones) were sold on the idea and accepted the Bible as divinely inspired and never crossed their mind to question its veracity and spent most of their time defending their belief in the Scriptures. As for Confucius, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad and other religious figures, my point exactly - one does not have to follow Christianity to lead a moral and righteous life as all religions teach basically the same principles.

 

[PRmerger]

Why are you so surprised. You believe that the writers of the Bible were inspired, one could say it also “came to them”

Fair enough. So if you feel that you could be inspired similarly, what are you doing with this “truth” that you’ve uncovered? Do you have any evidence that we should follow your truth vs the truth of the Apostles?

Actually, I’m not even certain exactly what you’re claiming. It seems as though you’re professing that God has revealed certain truths to you yet you’re also claiming you really don’t know anything. Which is it?

They (the Christian ones) were sold on the idea and accepted the Bible as divinely inspired and never crossed their mind to question its veracity and spent most of their time defending their belief in the Scriptures.

Who says it never crossed Christians’ minds to question the veracity of Scripture?

And, if you read their apologias, you will find their beliefs quite defensible.

As for Confucius, Buddha, Zoroaster, Muhammad and other religious figures, my point exactly - one does not have to follow Christianity to lead a moral and righteous life as all religions teach basically the same principles.

The CC does not teach that only Christians can lead a moral and righteous life, avflf. You are setting up a straw man.

As I said earlier, Jesus’ mission was not to be a teacher, nor to heal the sick (he only healed a handful of people so he certainly failed miserably if that was his goal!), nor to conquer poverty…he came as the Lamb of God to take away the Sins of the world.

 

[avflf]

Fair enough. So if you feel that you could be inspired similarly, what are you doing with this “truth” that you’ve uncovered? Do you have any evidence that we should follow your truth vs the truth of the Apostles?

Not at all, the writers of the various Biblical books never expected anyone to take them as divine writings. They assumed that status with time. Most prophetic utterances in the O/T were written after the fact., and others were interpreted by the N/T writers in accordance with their already held beliefs.

Actually, I’m not even certain exactly what you’re claiming. It seems as though you’re professing that God has revealed certain truths to you yet you’re also claiming you really don’t know anything. Which is it?

What I really said was that I did not know who or what is God, not “anything”. I also said that it is easier for me to know what God is not - he is not Jehovah, Vishnu, Brahman, Allah, Jupiter, Zeus or any of the gods man created and attributed to them human emotions such as jealousy, vengefulness and at least in the case of Jehovah the need for repentance. My concept of God is thus very different from yours.
A true God is not that vain as to require continuous praise and adoration from his/her/its creation. After all, we did not ask to be created.
If the CC believes that we were created to obey and worship Jehovah in this life and spend eternity with him, no doubt praising him for ever and ever it makes Jehovah hooked on praise as if it were a drug.
A true God does not require the shedding of blood to forgive his creation.
A true God would not reveal him/her/itself to a selected group and any commandments he/she/it would impart on mankind would not be written in a particular language. It would be universally understood by all peoples of the Earth.

The CC does not teach that only Christians can lead a moral and righteous life, avflf. You are setting up a straw man.

Not really, it was just to show you that Christians do not have the monopoly on the “truth” and the “way to heaven” is not found exclusively in Christian teachings.

As I said earlier, Jesus’ mission was not to be a teacher, nor to heal the sick (he only healed a handful of people so he certainly failed miserably if that was his goal!), nor to conquer poverty…he came as the Lamb of God to take away the Sins of the world.

There you go again, obsessed with blood sacrifices so that you can get to heaven. No blood, no open heavenly gate, regardless how upright you lived your life. Really PRmerger, maybe you should work out your own salvation, not with “fear and trembling” as Paul says, but boldly and with good cheer.
But seeing that you are happy with worshiping a repenting God who is jealous, hates, orders genocide, requires blood and sends people to a lake of fire for all eternity, then I am happy for you too.
We really have gone off topic. I’m calling it quits.
Peace and blessings to you and yours

 

[PRmerger]

Not at all, the writers of the various Biblical books never expected anyone to take them as divine writings.

Can you cite your reference for this?

A true God is not that vain as to require continuous praise and adoration from his/her/its creation.

How do you know this?

A true God does not require the shedding of blood to forgive his creation.

How do you know this?

A true God would not reveal him/her/itself to a selected group and any commandments he/she/it would impart on mankind would not be written in a particular language. It would be universally understood by all peoples of the Earth.

How do you know this?

Where is it that you get your understanding of what “a true God” is?

I’m calling it quits.

Oh. disappointed

Methinks that when questions are presented to you and you have no answer except “they just came to me”, it certainly is time to bow out of a reasoned discussion. sigh