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Janet1983
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Dr. Martin Luther actually did translate them (the apocrypha)… did you know that?
I don’t use his translation a lot (only when I write something in German and need an appropriate Bible I might, but there are more accurate ones out there too)…
I do however rely on the books in the Tanakh when it comes to the OT.
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guanophore
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It is not up to us to decide which elements of the immutable gospel message are more or less important. When you study the development of the Marian doctrines, it will become clear that they are all corollaries to doctrines that were developed about the divinity of Christ. They are inseparable. They are all part of the One Faith.What I would hope does not happen, is that someone reads this thread, and believes that Mary’s virginity is as important as the divinity and Deity of ChristI can appreciate your devotion to Mary, but still cannot believe that(nor wil I witness to others that it is true) belief in her perpetual virginity is a part of the Gospel, or salvation
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PRmerger
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I believe he did in his first translation, but later repented of doing so.
Did he not argue that since the New Testament authors never quoted from the deuterocanon they ought to be removed? Is that not correct? I defer to you on the subject of Luther (only because you’re German, which, really is a silly reason, but I admit I’m doing so!)
Can you provide documentation that the deuterocanon were not part of the original canon defined at the Councils of Rome, Carthage and Hippo?
Protestant historian J.N.D. Kelly writes, “It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive [than the Protestant Bible]. . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books” (bold mine)
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1beleevr
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elvisman: Welcome to my world! I have felt the same about many of your posts; I have even let friends read them, and they scratch their heads, saying,“What does he mean?” Did you happen to read Ezekiel 44:1, which says,“Then the man brought me back to East Gate in the outer wall of the Temple area, but it was closed.” And we know what verse 2 says! In post#963, you stated that early church fathers(father should not be capitalized unless referring to God, the One and Only Holy Father) used polyvalent symbolism to equate the East Gate with Mary
So, it sounds like the Gate was closed before Christ came! And as far as the woman in Revelation 12,well, there are to many ways to interpret this series of verses
And what does the crown with 12 stars represent? The twelve tribes of Israel?
So, it sounds like the Gate was closed before Christ came! And as far as the woman in Revelation 12,well, there are to many ways to interpret this series of verses And what does the crown with 12 stars represent? The twelve tribes of Israel?
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1beleevr
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Actually, guan, there are some catholics, who try to tell you that you are going to Heaven or Hell!
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1beleevr
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Fight on for old SC(USC 34, ND 27). Here we go Trojans! As we near the end of this thread, it is clear that Mary’s perpetual virginity, is a moot point! But what was not definitively proven, was that we must believe in it to be savedWell, if you are catholic, I guess you do! God bless ALL of my brothers and sisters in Christ; and a special blessing to all of those who are lost, or searching! No one is beyond God’s love, and He wants ALL oof His children to be redeemed!
Well, if you are catholic, I guess you do! God bless ALL of my brothers and sisters in Christ; and a special blessing to all of those who are lost, or searching! No one is beyond God’s love, and He wants ALL oof His children to be redeemed!
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avflf
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Firstly, my concept of God comes from reading about man made gods, such as Jehovah, Allah, Brahman, etc. etc. and it is formulated, logically, by eliminating all their shortcomings.
Secondly, your belief that the Christian God is above all other gods is based on what? where do you get that from? No doubt you’ll say the Bible for it is only there that Jehovah says he’s the greatest, Muhammad Ali style; no where else. The fact that the Bible was written by worshipers of Jehovah accounts for the high esteem he was held. Doesn’t make it the truth though.
As for the Christian concept that “God is love” it is taken from 2 verses out of the whole Bible - 1 Jn. 4:8 and 16. You get the full concept of God out of 2 verses? What about the much numerous instances where he is depicted as ordering the slaughter of innocent men, women and children? That side of his character does not count? How many children were killed in Egypt at the time of the Exodus alone? To say that your God is love is a travesty of the meaning of love.
Tirdly, like for example Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. or his image in Revelation (Rev 19:13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Not very loving, don’t you agree? Ah, you say, he is also a just God. How just is this: Deu 23:3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever: or * (Deu 23:1) * He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. or Exo 20:5 *Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a **jealous *God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;Thirdly, after you’ve affirmed that your understanding of God comes from Christianity, you ought to take the entire message of Christianity, the entire Gospel, the entire deposit of revelation before you make any sort of profession of faith about what God is and what God isn’t.
That’s all I’m saying.
Tell me PRmerger, is love compatible with jealousy?
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1beleevr
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PRmerger;5853455[:
prmerger: Post#988(mine) was in response to post#984(yours, where you ask about the East Gate.
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PRmerger
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Again, QED, avflf.
You “know” that Love is not compatible with jealousy because of the Christian Scriptures!
The Ancients had some mythological gods which they created in their own image–they were capricious, jealous, proud, mean, etc.
Until God revealed that He is LOVE, the concept never occurred to humanity.
So, when you say that your god is “more God-like”, you mean, your god is more “Christ-like”. Wow. That’s where you get your idea of the Divine–from Christianity.
It’s time for some intellectual honesty here, avflf!
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PRmerger
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Fides Quaerens Intellectum.
Faith seeking understanding.
Now*, that’s* funny, avflf! The entire life of Christ is an example of LOVE in perfection.
Possibly you didn’t do a word search to check out how many times “love” is in the Bible with reference to God? Luke 11:42, John 8:42, John 13:34, John 14:21, John 14:23, John 15:9, John 15:13…whew! I’m getting tired just typing out these verses! (I’m going to leave the rest of the work to you–do some more research on your own before you post something so egregiously false.)
Read this article and then let’s chat!
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avflf
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Not so laughable if you have a good concordance and look up the Hebrew meaning of words, Arundur. As for the historical and geographical background that you hide behind it should make not an iota of difference to a divinely inspired book that is supposedly required reading by all mankind so they may reach the many mansions in the heavenly abode or that it has been translated across languages and thus lost something of the original thought. Is it a divine work or not? What I consider laughable is your naivety.
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Lutheranteach
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Fully open to debate and based on scriptural references it’s probably unknowable. If God meant to give his son the full experience of being human, I can’t see any reason Jesus would not have had brothers and/or sisters. I would also say that the Biblical reference I’ve seen most often used and explained by Catholics as being a reference to Jesus’ cousins leaves me less than persuaded as it seems the verse Matt. 13:55 is being translated partly in one form (literal) and then in another midway through.
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Good_Fella
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elvisman
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So, you only trust Janet’s views?
Is that correct?
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elvisman
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**First of all - “Early Church Fathers” is a ****title (like President or Director of Operations) and therefore can and ***should *be capitalized.elvisman: Welcome to my world! I have felt the same about many of your posts; I have even let friends read them, and they scratch their heads, saying,“What does he mean?” Did you happen to read Ezekiel 44:1, which says,“Then the man brought me back to East Gate in the outer wall of the Temple area, but it was closed.” And we know what verse 2 says! In post#963, you stated that early church fathers(father should not be capitalized unless referring to God, the One and Only Holy Father) used polyvalent symbolism to equate the East Gate with Mary
Secondly, as I pointed out - there is no biblical record of the ACTUAL East Gate being close before OR after Christ.
History tells us that Saladin, Muslim leader had the gate sealed in 1187 because of the prophecy that Jesus would enter through it (as if mere bricks could keep him out).
So - we KNOW that the gate wasn’t closed until more than 1000 years AFTER Christ, therefore, millions of people entered through it after he did. SO, it can be shown that the prophecy in Exek. 44 has a polyvalent symbolism and can be referring to Mary - as the Fathers of the Church said it did.
Game. Set. MATCH.
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Prieldedi
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Adam is a type of Christ, a prefigure of Christ. God created Adam and gave him the “full experience of being human”, just as God gave it to His Son, Jesus. Adam, a human, had no brothers nor sisters. Just as Jesus.
God bless you
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avflf
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You’ve got it the wrong way around. It is through understanding that faith comes
The point is that your quote comes from 2 verses. A search on just “love” gives you hundreds of hits both in the Old and New Testament. But you seem to zero only on God the Son. On my side I was focusing on God the Father
Ah, yes, “the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the Lord”; " my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Standard reply if cornered.
The wicked that prosper in this life will get their proper deserts in hell after death and the good folk that suffer here go to heaven and that’s that The concept of an afterlife was unknown to the Hebrews at the time of the writing of the Pentateuch and the only promise you get from Jehovah is that you will “live long upon the earth” if you followed his commands. The concept of eternal life came much later as did the concept of Hell as a place of punishment. You must give the priesthood their due; they were busy formulating new ways of scarring the flock to keep then in submission and contributing to the material wellbeing of the church - not referring to the CC only but to every religious organization.
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avflf
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If it is intellectual honesty you want from me how about reciprocating . You know I was not referring to “the Ancients that had some mythological gods …” I was talking about the God of the Bible who you say is love only but when love is not enough to explain him when he kills and maims, then the just bit comes out. And when the just bit is not enough out comes God is God and he can do what he likes.Again, QED, avflf.
You “know” that Love is not compatible with jealousy because of the Christian Scriptures!
The Ancients had some mythological gods which they created in their own image–they were capricious, jealous, proud, mean, etc.
Until God revealed that He is LOVE, the concept never occurred to humanity.
So, when you say that your god is “more God-like”, you mean, your god is more “Christ-like”. Wow. That’s where you get your idea of the Divine–from Christianity.
It’s time for some intellectual honesty here, avflf!
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Good_Fella
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Are you suggesting that people who don’t have brothers and sisters aren’t fully human?
Contextual presuppositions formed by proof-reading single verses aren’t what Church dogmas are made of. :nope:
PAX :heaven:
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