Jesus was Communist

[BryPGuy89]

Verity1:

BryPGuy89:

There is no communist country in the world that exists.

Is there a SINGLE Communist person that you can point me to who displays all of the behaviours you have mentioned? Either now or in the past?

I can point you to many, many Christians.

“If the communist and religious ethics met they would blend beautifully”

They would blend only where the communist “ideals” are a carbon-copy of Christian ideals. It’s a cheap imitation that CANNOT work because such behaviour requires divine grace.

Verity 1

There has never been a true communist nation, I can name places were the communist idea works in communities. For example in Israel there are communities that basically follow the communist ways, but don’t call themselves communist. They have equal sharing and giving and everyone does their share to help the community, they live following good Jewish morals and they live well, not even using money between themselves, because they don’t need to.

If Christian values and teachings were mixed with the communist government it would work, the Jews have basically the same morals and ethics, they differ on some of their teachings, but they work over there and I don’t see why it couldn’t work for a national government.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Booklover:

Why did our Lady at Fatima tell us to amend our lives and tell us to pray for the conversion of Russia? She told us that if we did not amend our lives and repent and pray for Russia, that IT WOULD SPREAD ITS ERRORS ALL OVER THE WORLD? Why would she do that if communism is the ideal way of life as you seem to think?

And don’t forget that Jesus said: Give to caesar what is caesar’s and to God what is God’? He did not say anything about life without money.

Vickie

Russia was not a true communist government, they were a totalitarian/capitolist/communist government which did terrible things because of the evil leaders. The real ideaology of communism has flurished in communities and tribes for centuries, though it wasn’t called that, many small communities around the world live in a self governing communities that prosper.

Is not the government’s money is not the government’s? That takes away some of these people’s views that we should receive money for works and not give it to the government. Life without much use of money would be great, I wish there were some Catholic communities that lived in the same fashion as the Amish. That would be the life, friendly, religious and generous society, which could easily describe the true idea of a communist government. They work for the betterment of the community and do everything with God in mind, they turn from the distractions that tear us away and they don’t have this idea that everyone should try to aquire money and power and extra rewards for hard work like the capitalists do.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I don’t see what is this fasination with rewards and money people always talk about. Are you not stisfied to know that if you do your job you will not have to worry about anything, in communism yes you receive equal pay regardless of work, but the self satisfaction of knowing you are doing your best and that you have no cares, is that not enough. I don’t know if I’m odd, but this reward system and wanting more money for the good you do doesn’t appeal to me. The fact of knowing I did my best for the better of the society is enough. I don’t need to receive more money for more good I do, I take pride in what I know to be my good work and that is enough. I don’t see why it is alway about the money, all defenses are not enough pay for my work, why should I make the same as someone doing a job half has important then mine, I support communim because it fits my understanding of a Christian society, applying Christ’s teaching to everyday life. I’m not looking for a utopia, but a society without money and greed to distract the faithful.

How about addressing some of the points in my post instead of repeating your previous posts. It makes this forum more enjoyable.

thanks.

 

[Verity1]

Here are some excerpts of poetry written by the co-founder of Communism, Karl Marx.

“I wish to avenge myself against the one who rules above
The hellish vapours rise and fill the brain
Till I go mad and my heart is utterly changed
See this sword?
The Prince of Darkness
Sold it to me…”

“While for us both the abyss yawns in darkness
You will sink down and I shall follow laughing
Whispering in your ears descend, come with me friend”

“Ruined, ruined, my time has clean run out
The clock has stopped, the pigmy house has crumbled
Soon I shall embrace eternity to my breast
And soon I shall howl gigantic curses on mankind”

“Thus heaven I’ve forfeited
I know it full well
My soul, once true to God
Is chosen for hell.”

The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

No, Communism and Christianity are utterly different. The latter comes from and is of God. Communism come from and is of His enemy.

Verity 1

 

[Al_Masetti]

BryPGuy89:

That book is not based on the principle of communism, but the failings of communist countries that never came close to the true idea of the government system. The atrocities were that of power hungary men with nothing to stop them. I still stand by that the real ideaology of communism is very close to the teachings of Jesus on social behavior.

I think that the system you are describing is not so much “communism” as it is “utopianism”.

There have been any number of “communes” and other communities based on utopian ideals.

You can research “utopia” on google and on amazon. There are a lot of papers and books on the subject.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

How about addressing some of the points in my post instead of repeating your previous posts. It makes this forum more enjoyable.

thanks.

I’m waiting for a post that can be responded to without repeating myself. So far everyone has repeatedly asked the same thing and time and time again I have to repeat myself, because no one has asked a question I haven’t already answered in a previous post. Please read the posts and then form a question that I can address without repetition so I can make this thread more enjoyable please.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Verity1:

Here are some excerpts of poetry written by the co-founder of Communism, Karl Marx.

“I wish to avenge myself against the one who rules above
The hellish vapours rise and fill the brain
Till I go mad and my heart is utterly changed
See this sword?
The Prince of Darkness
Sold it to me…”

“While for us both the abyss yawns in darkness
You will sink down and I shall follow laughing
Whispering in your ears descend, come with me friend”

“Ruined, ruined, my time has clean run out
The clock has stopped, the pigmy house has crumbled
Soon I shall embrace eternity to my breast
And soon I shall howl gigantic curses on mankind”

“Thus heaven I’ve forfeited
I know it full well
My soul, once true to God
Is chosen for hell.”

The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.

No, Communism and Christianity are utterly different. The latter comes from and is of God. Communism come from and is of His enemy.

Verity 1

Communism in idea is similar to Christ’s teachings on social behavior. They share and give, generosity, selflessness, compassion to others, men are equal in their ability to acquire things, knowledge, food, family expenses, etc… With Christian teachings and morals a communist society would do well.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Al Masetti:

I think that the system you are describing is not so much “communism” as it is “utopianism”.

There have been any number of “communes” and other communities based on utopian ideals.

You can research “utopia” on google and on amazon. There are a lot of papers and books on the subject.

I do mean communism, a government of people with equal oppertunities and fair treatment to the masses. People don’t need a lot of money to live well and sharing with the whole group so all can prosper is the the ideal I am refering to.

 

[Al_Masetti]

BryPGuy89:

I do mean communism, a government of people with equal oppertunities and fair treatment to the masses. People don’t need a lot of money to live well and sharing with the whole group so all can prosper is the the ideal I am refering to.

Well, your understanding of communism is at variance with the actual experience of the rest of the planet.

 

[katewithak]

BryPGuy89:

I do mean communism, a government of people with equal oppertunities and fair treatment to the masses. People don’t need a lot of money to live well and sharing with the whole group so all can prosper is the the ideal I am refering to.

Wow.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I’m waiting for a post that can be responded to without repeating myself. So far everyone has repeatedly asked the same thing and time and time again I have to repeat myself, because no one has asked a question I haven’t already answered in a previous post. Please read the posts and then form a question that I can address without repetition so I can make this thread more enjoyable please.

First, I don’t see where you addressed Matthew 25:14-30…this relates directly back to the title of the thread. If Jesus were communist wouldn’t each person have received the same number of talents?

Second, You state that capitalism is only about money, greed, and the individual. Capitalism is the economic system that stimulates creativity. Think of all of the wonderful inventions that were produced because a person was motivated to make money. Think of all of the jobs created because of Bill Gates. Think of all of the millions and millions of dollars given to charity by Bill Gates. Capitalism nurtures invention and creativity. Communism stifles it.

Third, capitalism is no more the reason for greed than God is the reason for evil. I know plenty of benevolent people who are capitalists. They give to charity, and use their time, talents, and treasures to help others. To make a blanket statement that capitalism is about greed is to unjustly impugn those who are capitalists and not greedy (check out the 8th commandment).

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with the individual. God created me as an individual, and gave me separate talents from everyone else. To simply try to be the same as everyone else would be to turn my back on the UNIQUE gifts God has given me. The value of the individual is important…simply look at the parable about the shepherd who leaves his flock for the one stray sheep. Why go after one sheep if the flock is more important as a group, as you imply? My salvation depends on what I do as an individual…I will be judged by Christ himself for what I have done in my life…not by membership in any group.

There you have it, 4 separate points you have not addressed. I look forward to your response.

 

[KnightErrantJR]

Che:

Was Jesus a Capitalist or a Communist?

We have to first of all know that one of pillars of Communism is having a GODless State. So, my response to this question will ignore this pillar, since Jesus obviously was not GODless.

To me as a Muslim, Jesus was a Muslim. He was neither a Capitalist nor a Communist, because he believed in One True Undivided GOD Almighty, and he believed in Justice and equality of treatment to all people. Plus he taught his followers how to love and forgive others, which is what Islam also teaches.

Aside from that, I believe that Jesus was closer to Communism than Capitalism for the following reasons:

1- Communism believes that everyone is equal. Capitalism’s human equality is largely influenced by money.

2- Jesus disliked very much the tax collectors because they were money-driven and money-hungry (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-13).

3- Jesus disliked the rich people and promised that only few of them will make it to Heaven (Matthew 19:23-26).

4- Jesus in points 2 and 3 clearly disliked the “Capitalist” people. He clearly disliked Capitalism, because this system is all about money. Human value is precisely determined by the amount of money the person has.

Therefore, I believe that Jesus’ materialistic or capitalistic views were much closer to Communism.

answering-christianity.com/was_jesus.htm

First off, I would say you are right to the degree that Christ, being divine and one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, would not endorse any earthly government, as the fact that humans clamored for their own self rule is one of the mistakes that we made over history. The Isrealites were ruled by God directly, but asked God for a king, even though he told them such a thing would not be a good idea in the long run. We could have been under God’s rule directly, but we chose not to, so any system we come up with will pale by comparison.

Communism does not beleive everyone is equal, it beleives that everyone should end up with equal results. This serves to deter anyone from working any harder than they absolutely have to, because there is no reward for doing so. A society that does the bare minimum will never produce great results.

It was common, in Jesus’ time, for Tax Collectors to take advantage of people and overcharge them, and to skim money off of what they collected. Corruption was common in the profession. It had nothing to do with taxes or tax collectors, and everything to do with corruption. I beleive that Jesus would have been just as critical of a Communist government that did a poor job of making sure that its citizens had their needs met.

Jesus did not dislike rich people. He said that it was difficult for those that had become accostomed to worldly wealth to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But if you notice, while he told one follower that he had to sell everything and give away all of his wealth to follow him, another follower was told to give away HALF of what he owned. In other words, it had to do with how much they had to part with before they realized that what was important were matters that were spiritual, not material. Some alchoholics are so addicted to alchohol that they can’t even have cough medicine for fear of falling off the wagon, others are fine with it. Why should an addiction to wealth be any different?

The final flaw here is that the Roman Empire was not a captitalist society. There was no free market system in effect, and not anyone could sell just anything they wanted too. The closest you can get to coming up with an actual conclusion based on the facts you present is that Jesus viewed the Romans as corrupt, but even then, he didn’t “dislike” them, since a centurion was among his followers.

 

[BlestOne]

Actually Jesus would have advocated Divine Monarchy…God is King! As we know from reading 1Kings…it was the people that wanted an earthly king as an outward sign of power…God tried to reason with them but they wanted it so God punished them by giving them what they wanted like any good parent would. Now they will see the errors of their ways…but once you have an earthly king…it is virtually impossible to get rid of them.

 

[BlestOne]

BTW…Brilliant post KnightErrantJR…You are the bomb!!! (Is that good honey?) No wonder why I married you!!!

 

[StMarkEofE]

Che:

Was Jesus a Capitalist or a Communist?

We have to first of all know that one of pillars of Communism is having a GODless State. So, my response to this question will ignore this pillar, since Jesus obviously was not GODless.

To me as a Muslim, Jesus was a Muslim. He was neither a Capitalist nor a Communist, because he believed in One True Undivided GOD Almighty, and he believed in Justice and equality of treatment to all people. Plus he taught his followers how to love and forgive others, which is what Islam also teaches.

Aside from that, I believe that Jesus was closer to Communism than Capitalism for the following reasons:

1- Communism believes that everyone is equal. Capitalism’s human equality is largely influenced by money.

2- Jesus disliked very much the tax collectors because they were money-driven and money-hungry (Matthew 5:46, 9:10, and Luke 3:11-13).

3- Jesus disliked the rich people and promised that only few of them will make it to Heaven (Matthew 19:23-26).

4- Jesus in points 2 and 3 clearly disliked the “Capitalist” people. He clearly disliked Capitalism, because this system is all about money. Human value is precisely determined by the amount of money the person has.

Therefore, I believe that Jesus’ materialistic or capitalistic views were much closer to Communism.

answering-christianity.com/was_jesus.htm

1. Yes, everyone is equal in God’s eyes but each person is unique with unique talents and thus are not equal in qualifications. Money is not the root of evil, it is the LOVE of money that is evil. Try buying sometime someday without it.
2. Christ also said “Render to Ceasar those things that are Ceasars and to God the things that are God”. He expected man to pay his taxes and to honor God.
3. One of Jesus’ closest friends was Lazarus a man of means. Jesus did not love him less because Lazarus was a very generous rich man who gave generously to the poor. He even raised Lazarus from the dead. When Jesus heard of Lazarus’ death He wept.
4. Jesus was neither capitalist or communist he was THE Redeemer and truly the Son of the Living God.

 

[Tmaque]

I don’t know if someone has hit on this yet, but I’ll make my statement anyway at the risk of being redundant. It occurs to me that if Jesus was against capitalism he certainly would have said so. There is not one instance in the NT where Jesus says anything about giving up trying to earn money to provide for one’s means, and instead giving all resources in common as a commune. He, of course, did want people to give up everything and follow him, and that included money along with family, career, and even life itself. But nowhere does he condemn the economic system that was in place in 1st century Palestine. That system was definitely capitalistic. This silence on Jesus’ part speaks volumes.

While I’m certain Jesus would condemn the general (aquisition of wealth for it’s own sake) mentality that is prevalent in our society, I am quite certain that he would approve of the idea that one should earn his bread through his own efforts, and suffer the consequences if he is too lazy to do so. Suffering is a great teacher. It’s the best vehicle for spiritual growth, especially when we are suffering because of our own failures.

Finally, communism has failed everywhere it’s been tried simply because there must be consequences for failure to be productive, and rewards for being productive. Communism imposes an artificial system over this fundamental law of nature seperating ones actions from the consequences of said actions. This dooms communism to failure every time. It always has failed and always will fail. This proves that Jesus would not approve of communism. He would not approve of a system doomed to continual failure that in the end inevitably produces utter misery for his children.

 

[Tmaque]

Che:

To me as a Muslim, Jesus was a Muslim. He was neither a Capitalist nor a Communist, because he believed in One True Undivided GOD Almighty, and he believed in Justice and equality of treatment to all people. Plus he taught his followers how to love and forgive others, which is what Islam also teaches.

This is off topic but it must be stated:
He also taught that He was the Son of God, equal to God, One with God. In other words, He taught that He was God. You can’t call Jesus a prophet and then ignore the most powerful thing he taught. He was either 100% correct or crazy.

 

[BlestOne]

Good point Todd…accept or reject the whole package…

 

[BryPGuy89]

Al Masetti:

Well, your understanding of communism is at variance with the actual experience of the rest of the planet.

That is my point, no one has ever truly experienced communism under a communist state. Only in communities and tribes within countries have practiced communism, not U.S.S.R., Cuba, China, or Korea count as communists, because they never really followed the concepts of communism, only the basis.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

First, I don’t see where you addressed Matthew 25:14-30…this relates directly back to the title of the thread. If Jesus were communist wouldn’t each person have received the same number of talents?

Second, You state that capitalism is only about money, greed, and the individual. Capitalism is the economic system that stimulates creativity. Think of all of the wonderful inventions that were produced because a person was motivated to make money. Think of all of the jobs created because of Bill Gates. Think of all of the millions and millions of dollars given to charity by Bill Gates. Capitalism nurtures invention and creativity. Communism stifles it.

Third, capitalism is no more the reason for greed than God is the reason for evil. I know plenty of benevolent people who are capitalists. They give to charity, and use their time, talents, and treasures to help others. To make a blanket statement that capitalism is about greed is to unjustly impugn those who are capitalists and not greedy (check out the 8th commandment).

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with the individual. God created me as an individual, and gave me separate talents from everyone else. To simply try to be the same as everyone else would be to turn my back on the UNIQUE gifts God has given me. The value of the individual is important…simply look at the parable about the shepherd who leaves his flock for the one stray sheep. Why go after one sheep if the flock is more important as a group, as you imply? My salvation depends on what I do as an individual…I will be judged by Christ himself for what I have done in my life…not by membership in any group.

There you have it, 4 separate points you have not addressed. I look forward to your response.

I said it’s not about the individual’s talent, in communism everyone receives the same training and qualifications, so why should they not have equal oppertunity in the work field and education. I don’t see why the individual in a community sense is important to the way that the millionaire 1% have no regulations and can work around the laws and get richer, but the 75% poor and lower middle class have to work meaningless jobs and are subject the laws and limited by their pre-existing stance in society.

Capitalism encourages creativity and inventions for the sole purpose to help the individual in their social standing and ability. Yeah we have come up with some good inventions, but most are self indulgent for the individual and lead to sin and distraction in the way they are used, lightly restricted these days. Most of the important inventions came in the old monarchy nation, mathematics, basic science, liturature, engineering, and etc… They may not be as indept as they are today, but if not for them most things acreditted to capitalism couldn’t exist.

Capitalism is based on the greed of the individual, they try to acquire enough money and posessions that they can live over well and give what they usually don’t need, no sacrifice or real charity, just throwing away the dispesable. I know nice kind people too, but they still live in a decent house and eat very well and have enough cars for the family to travel, they give because they run out of ways to self provide and need clasure for their selfish acqisitions. The capitalist society is based on the benefit of the individual and then once that is done then the multitudes. I don’t blame the people but the form of government for the greed of our nation.

In communism you aren’t forced to not use your talents, but everyone in their ability are usually just as capable to do what you can, just not as naturally. The individual is important, but the masses are more important in that they should all be able to eat like you and not starve and that they should have decent housing like you, they should be able to receive the same education as you, the law should apply to them just as much as you. Do you not agree with this in this sence? The individual ins’t lost or put away but it is just not the focus of the life in the community. Yes you are judged by your actions, but did God not create a sence of community with the Jews? Or Jesus not talk of sharing of your blessings and being charitable with the less fortunate, Like the old blind widow giving two gold peices when the rich aristocrats gave a single, she was not just being charitable, but giving in sacrafice and love, praised by Jesus for it she was. Also are we not asked to share our faith with other groups and thus become part of groups of faith and follow Jesus together?

I have answered your post and I would like to see your answers to my questions of your own.