Jesus was Communist

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I said it’s not about the individual’s talent, in communism everyone receives the same training and qualifications, so why should they not have equal oppertunity in the work field and education. I don’t see why the individual in a community sense is important to the way that the millionaire 1% have no regulations and can work around the laws and get richer, but the 75% poor and lower middle class have to work meaningless jobs and are subject the laws and limited by their pre-existing stance in society.

We do not all have the same ability, irregardless if everyone received the same training. Perhaps you should blame God for this. Nobody should be above the law. I agree that the law should apply to all. People end up in “meaningless” jobs by their own choice. I know too many people, my father included, that started out dirt poor, but because he worked hard, he made a good life for himself and his family…without “working around laws”

BryPGuy89:

Capitalism encourages creativity and inventions for the sole purpose to help the individual in their social standing and ability.

Wow, quite an indictment on so many people you don’t know. As I said before, try reading the 8th commandment.

BryPGuy89:

Capitalism is based on the greed of the individual, they try to acquire enough money and posessions that they can live over well and give what they usually don’t need, no sacrifice or real charity, just throwing away the dispesable. I know nice kind people too, but they still live in a decent house and eat very well and have enough cars for the family to travel, they give because they run out of ways to self provide and need clasure for their selfish acqisitions. The capitalist society is based on the benefit of the individual and then once that is done then the multitudes. I don’t blame the people but the form of government for the greed of our nation.

Capitalism benefits so many more than just the individual. The multitude of families that benefit from a creative person with a dream are endless. Again, you indict so many people you don’t know. Not very Catholic.

BryPGuy89:

In communism you aren’t forced to not use your talents, but everyone in their ability are usually just as capable to do what you can, just not as naturally. The individual is important, but the masses are more important in that they should all be able to eat like you and not starve and that they should have decent housing like you, they should be able to receive the same education as you, the law should apply to them just as much as you. Do you not agree with this in this sence?

I agree with the concept of equality of opportunity…you seem to be preoccupied with equality of outcome. Catholic teaches that even our reward in heaven will not be equal.

By the way, why do you keep avoiding discussing Matthew 25:14-30? It certainly does not support your position…and certainly does not support the title of this thread. You have avoided discussing this twice so far…will you be going for three times???

 

[StMarkEofE]

Che:

Martin Luther King supported equality. communism supports equality for all.
martinlutherking.org/images/commie-school.jpg

Why Socialism? By Albert Einstein
huppi.com/kangaroo/Einstein.htm

Che, hmm, interesting name. Real or adopted?

 

[PPatience]

Jesus was not a communist or a socialist!

Jesus was sent from God to guide his people to the right path through devotion and love.

He cared about justice between people in path drawn by God…

 

[Verity1]

BryPGuy89:

Verity1:

“There has never been a true communist nation”

I didn’t ask you for an example of a true communist nation. I asked you for an example of a “true” communist, who espouses the ideals you speak of and who has lived a life espousing them. I asked you to name names.

“I can name places were the communist idea works in communities. For example in Israel there are communities that basically follow the communist ways, but don’t call themselves communist. They have equal sharing and giving and everyone does their share to help the community”

We can all name such groups. They exist in many countries. Their ideals are practised only amongst themselves. The “believers”. The same tribe as themselves. There is no wish to reach out to others outside the tribe. This is not communism, and it is not Christianity. This is not communism as anyone else would recognise it. Neither is it Christianity.

“If Christian values and teachings were mixed with the communist government it would work.”

WHY the need to mix values? Why dilute perfection with artifice? What values does Communism have that Christianity doesn’t? Why don’t you agree that the Christian ideal is perfect? Why do you bring in Communism? Where has Communism succeeded where Christianity has failed?

Verity1.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

We do not all have the same ability, irregardless if everyone received the same training. Perhaps you should blame God for this. Nobody should be above the law. I agree that the law should apply to all. People end up in “meaningless” jobs by their own choice. I know too many people, my father included, that started out dirt poor, but because he worked hard, he made a good life for himself and his family…without “working around laws”

Wow, quite an indictment on so many people you don’t know. As I said before, try reading the 8th commandment.

Capitalism benefits so many more than just the individual. The multitude of families that benefit from a creative person with a dream are endless. Again, you indict so many people you don’t know. Not very Catholic.

I agree with the concept of equality of opportunity…you seem to be preoccupied with equality of outcome. Catholic teaches that even our reward in heaven will not be equal.

By the way, why do you keep avoiding discussing Matthew 25:14-30? It certainly does not support your position…and certainly does not support the title of this thread. You have avoided discussing this twice so far…will you be going for three times???

I strongly disagree that many people are in meaningless jobs by choice, most don’t have the oppertunity or ability to get out of it. Little communities and busy cities alike can only provide so many people with good paying jobe and then the parents can’t afford to support further education of their children and they have no oppertunity to get out of the service workforce. Majority don’t have the ability to get out of it, it is like a circle, around and around it goes and only a few get out. It is possible to get out of the “circle” by honest means, but few can ever leave this circle.

Have you ever read the 8th amendment? It is about excessive bail and punishment, nothing about people and the goal of capitalism. The amendment has nothing to do with this conversation almost at all. I don’t see the purpose of telling me to read it, please explain, because I’m perplexed.

The personal drive of the individual to prosper is not beneficial for the whole. Yes some good benefits have come, but it still is to the point that poor get poorer and the richer get richer and there is a shrinking hole between the classes. The majority of our country is lower class and can’t afford to do much more than eat and pay bills. I don’t know about your upbringing, but I grew up in California in a gang and drug infested area, we lived in probably the safest place in town, a little appartment complex with a fence and security guards. It was a poverty strickan and we often couldn’t pay our bills and woried about our ability to live off the streets. I know what is like to be in the majority and how hard it is to get out of the circle. Most of the friends I had wont go anywhere or be in any economic status then their parents, and then their children will be stuck there later. I got out of it because my parents were devorced and my dad moved to a little growing community on the other side of the country. I moved there to finish my schooloing and get away from the police in school and metal detectors. I don’t see how generalizing the facts in our country is non Catholic. I need you to explain that to me too.

Not about the outcome, the oppertunity in life. The majority of the American populace are in poverty, should not the thilthy rich have an obligation to give more to the needy and less indulgent for themselves. The hungary and the homeless (which I have seen and met, talked and given too) should be able to atleast eat and have basic shelter. Most rich people give for the fact that they need to for taxes or they couldn’t retain most of their money. I agree that we will have different rewards for our actions in heaven, but we need the oppertunity to find Jesus and live for Him in our lives to find salvation, no? God can’t work threw us if we don’t have the oppertunity to find him and open our hearts to his will.

As for Mat.25:14-30, that is metaphorically talking about faith and what one does with it. We are given the gift of salvation because of God’s grace and what we do with this knowledge in the world is what is depicted there. You sound like a protestant with this literal translation and closed mindness. I see no where this does not support equal oppertunity for the masses. Again I don’t see how this does not relate to whether Jesus was a communist or capitalist. I am tlking about the beleifs of communism and why it would apear to represent his teachings. We have gone off about specifics, but I still defend the idea the he was communist. I don’t see how the verses don’t support it. There I have discussed this verse.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Verity1:

BryPGuy89:

Verity1:

“There has never been a true communist nation”

I didn’t ask you for an example of a true communist nation. I asked you for an example of a “true” communist, who espouses the ideals you speak of and who has lived a life espousing them. I asked you to name names.

“I can name places were the communist idea works in communities. For example in Israel there are communities that basically follow the communist ways, but don’t call themselves communist. They have equal sharing and giving and everyone does their share to help the community”

We can all name such groups. They exist in many countries. Their ideals are practised only amongst themselves. The “believers”. The same tribe as themselves. There is no wish to reach out to others outside the tribe. This is not communism, and it is not Christianity. This is not communism as anyone else would recognise it. Neither is it Christianity.

“If Christian values and teachings were mixed with the communist government it would work.”

WHY the need to mix values? Why dilute perfection with artifice? What values does Communism have that Christianity doesn’t? Why don’t you agree that the Christian ideal is perfect? Why do you bring in Communism? Where has Communism succeeded where Christianity has failed?

Verity1.

I know many civil rights activists and poor who have always encouraged these ideals. Equality amongst men have been widely adopted and used. Martin Luther King Jr. come off the top of my head, but there have been women wanting equality and racis to. This is nothing new and surprising tha you ned names.

When it comes to governing the community why would they need to expand? If they work well like that then why bring more into it. I would recognise that as communism. That is at least one. In the sense of running nation communism doesn’t strictly follow Christianity, sharing the faith and everything, but that is what makes it not a church state.

Man is not perfect and falls short of ever reaching true Christian practices. If the government was run by devout people with Christian values atleast the country can be run fairly and hopefully without any problems caused by greed and what not. It’s not diluting Christian with communism, but the fraility of man running a communist society following Christian values. I mean it in the sense that communism without good Christian values would not work, not Christianity needing communism.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I strongly disagree that many people are in meaningless jobs by choice, most don’t have the oppertunity or ability to get out of it.

Some people study in school, some people don’t. Thats a choice. Some people decide to have kids when they can’t afford them and some don’t. Thats a choice. Some people sacrifce to afford college, and some people don’t. Thats a choice. Some take drugs and some don’t. Thats a choice. Some look at a minimum wage job as beneath them, and some view it as an opportunity. Thats a choice. There are too many success stories of people from all walks of life becoming successful by taking advantage of every opportunity, and there are many stories of people wasting opportunites. Again people make choices…they are, for the most part, where they are at in life because of the sum total of the choices they have made.

BryPGuy89:

It is possible to get out of the “circle” by honest means, but few can ever leave this circle.

Sounds like another choice.

BryPGuy89:

Have you ever read the 8th amendment? It is about excessive bail and punishment, nothing about people and the goal of capitalism. The amendment has nothing to do with this conversation almost at all. I don’t see the purpose of telling me to read it, please explain, because I’m perplexed.

Please take time to actually READ my comments. I asked if you had read the 8th COMMANDMENT, not the 8th ammendment. When you indict so many people as being greedy, you may be bearing false witness against them. That was my point.

BryPGuy89:

I don’t see how generalizing the facts in our country is non Catholic. I need you to explain that to me too.

You look at “the rich” as some evil group of people who somehow do their best to avoid taxes, avoid giving to charity, are greedy and selfish. When you generalize this, you bear false witness against the many successful people who are not greedy, and who are not selfish. Also, what you call “facts” are mearly your “opinion”. “Facts” require proof, and you have provided none. That was my point about being uncatholic. Sure some people are greedy and some people are selfish. Certainly not all. You need to make an attempt at being fair in your generalizations.

BryPGuy89:

Not about the outcome, the oppertunity in life. The majority of the American populace are in poverty, should not the thilthy rich have an obligation to give more to the needy and less indulgent for themselves. The hungary and the homeless (which I have seen and met, talked and given too) should be able to atleast eat and have basic shelter. Most rich people give for the fact that they need to for taxes or they couldn’t retain most of their money. I agree that we will have different rewards for our actions in heaven, but we need the oppertunity to find Jesus and live for Him in our lives to find salvation, no? God can’t work threw us if we don’t have the oppertunity to find him and open our hearts to his will.

Do you know “most rich people”? If not, how do you know what “most rich people” do with their money?
Also, communism is about equal outcome. Your previous posts lament that some people have more than others. In your version of true communism, everyone has the same. Thats equal outcome.

BryPGuy89:

As for Mat.25:14-30, that is metaphorically talking about faith and what one does with it. We are given the gift of salvation because of God’s grace and what we do with this knowledge in the world is what is depicted there. You sound like a protestant with this literal translation and closed mindness. I see no where this does not support equal oppertunity for the masses. Again I don’t see how this does not relate to whether Jesus was a communist or capitalist. I am tlking about the beleifs of communism and why it would apear to represent his teachings. We have gone off about specifics, but I still defend the idea the he was communist. I don’t see how the verses don’t support it. There I have discussed this verse.

Did you actually read the verse? It is a parable in which a man left his servants in charge. When he came back, he gave them different rewards for the actions they had taken. He did not give them the same rewards. If Jesus were a communist, he would have give to “each according to his need”. But he did not, in fact he gave to each what they had earned. Not very communist.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

Some people study in school, some people don’t. Thats a choice. Some people decide to have kids when they can’t afford them and some don’t. Thats a choice. Some people sacrifce to afford college, and some people don’t. Thats a choice. Some take drugs and some don’t. Thats a choice. Some look at a minimum wage job as beneath them, and some view it as an opportunity. Thats a choice. There are too many success stories of people from all walks of life becoming successful by taking advantage of every opportunity, and there are many stories of people wasting opportunites. Again people make choices…they are, for the most part, where they are at in life because of the sum total of the choices they have made.

Sounds like another choice.

Please take time to actually READ my comments. I asked if you had read the 8th COMMANDMENT, not the 8th ammendment. When you indict so many people as being greedy, you may be bearing false witness against them. That was my point.

You look at “the rich” as some evil group of people who somehow do their best to avoid taxes, avoid giving to charity, are greedy and selfish. When you generalize this, you bear false witness against the many successful people who are not greedy, and who are not selfish. Also, what you call “facts” are mearly your “opinion”. “Facts” require proof, and you have provided none. That was my point about being uncatholic. Sure some people are greedy and some people are selfish. Certainly not all. You need to make an attempt at being fair in your generalizations.

Do you know “most rich people”? If not, how do you know what “most rich people” do with their money?
Also, communism is about equal outcome. Your previous posts lament that some people have more than others. In your version of true communism, everyone has the same. Thats equal outcome.

Did you actually read the verse? It is a parable in which a man left his servants in charge. When he came back, he gave them different rewards for the actions they had taken. He did not give them the same rewards. If Jesus were a communist, he would have give to “each according to his need”. But he did not, in fact he gave to each what they had earned. Not very communist.

Not to be rude, but that is one of the stupidest things I have yet read on the forum. Most people don’t have this golden “choice” you speak of. Apparently you have never been with the majority of the U.S. population and the smallest income status. There is only so much education provided to the public for free, after that it costs lots of money which people in the lower classes regardless of their “choices” can’t afford. Suprisingly enough it is the uneducated music artists and sports player that make up a lot of lower class people that do succeed… so explain why those who don’t even benefitt society make more money than entire cities. They didn’t make “good” decisions, they just have some skill in an extracurricular activity, that just happen to get noticed, because I have seen some really poor people who have the same skills if not better who don’t get to go anywhere. This “choice” thing doesn’t really work as much as you think, because I have seen many people do everything they could to get out of the poverty circle and still not be able to get out. The majority by far in America is poor and low income, you can’t tell me that is because almost 80% of the population just make bad decisions all their life, that is rediculous. As for your success stories, how many are there? I could give you entire neighborhoods that people make all kinds of efforts to get better lives than their parents and yet fall short. Poverty exists and apparently you are ignorent of the high levels in our own country.

I apologize for my error, but again I don’t bare false witness to what I have seen and what is in the news. People are in general greedy even if only some. Many people base their decisions on how to make more money and to ensure they have good lives, even if these fail. People don’t want to give a lot of money. The rich give away minimum amounts of money to save on taxes and don’t have any sacrifice in it. Regardless, people have proven that they like to retain as much money as possible by skipping some taxes or giving only small amounts, etc… I don’t have to bare witness to anyone, the media and the people of this country bring it out to show the world.

.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Be fair in my generalizations? To be filthy rich you have to be greedy and selfish. To have more then enough money to support a country for years and not give as much as you can to the needy is greed and selfishness. Once you have enough to live and pay bills and put some away for a rainy day and you still have tens of thousands, milions, billion left, that is greed and selfishness. I don’t kow maybe my heart just goes out to the poor more because I have shared in the life the better lower class live. I don’t know when Jesus talked about giving and sharing and talked so greatly to those who make sacfrifices to help others just put it in my head, that I don’t beleive anyone should have such rediculous amounts of money. I don’t mean to say all rich people work around the taxes and stuff, but it is greed and selfishness that leads people to live so well. I could never allow myself to hold more money then to support and pay for expenses and some for savings, after that I would feel obligated to give the remaining amount.

I use “most rich people” because to be excessively rich you have to be to some degree greedy and selfish. It is obvious that most rich people save their money and spend it on lavish itms of no importance.
Communism is also about the oppertunity, everyone has the same oppertunities to receive the same education and that the next generations wont get stuck in a wheel of poverty. The youth has the same ability to get a job and support themselves in the country. This give everyone the ability to receive the same outcome.

I read the verses, if you had any sence of understanding you would notice it was a metaphor for the actions of faith. The others built upon their faith and were rewarded for their efforts. The other one just kept it were it was, not building upon it. Like a child retaining just the same amount of faith for his adulthood, it just doesn’t go as far and is less. It has nothing to do with material belongings and wealth. I feel appalld that you would take this as saying that God would rather someone get rich then just keep the same amount of money. If this is your understanding of the verse then I must ask that you lock yourself in a private cell and study the Bible for the rest of your life. Communism has to do with everyone benefitting and living in decent lives, having the same chances and “choice” abilities in a country.

 

[JOHNYJ]

Truthfuly speakinging.It wold be more logical for Jesus to be a Communist than a Republican.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

Not to be rude, but that is one of the stupidest things I have yet read on the forum.

Wow, thats charitable.

BryPGuy89:

Most people don’t have this golden “choice” you speak of.

No choice to study hard with your free public education? No choice to not have babies out of wedlock? No choice to take advantages of what opportunities you do have?

BryPGuy89:

Apparently you have never been with the majority of the U.S. population and the smallest income status…

The majority by far in America is poor and low income, you can’t tell me that is because almost 80% of the population just make bad decisions all their life, that is rediculous.

Point number one: my father started out dirt poor, but made good choices and worked hard, and became successful. Sorry, but my family has been there.

Point number two: Your statement about 80% of the population being poor and low income is factually incorrect. The poverty line is $18,850 for a family of 4
(Source: aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml)), and the average income per capita is slightly more than $43,000.
(Source:census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h08a.html)
Also, according to IRS figures, in order to make the top 50% of wage earners, you need to make at least $29,019 (2003, source:www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/03in05tr.xls)).
Are you making up statistics in order to support your weak position?

BryPGuy89:

People are in general greedy even if only some. Many people base their decisions on how to make more money and to ensure they have good lives, even if these fail. People don’t want to give a lot of money. The rich give away minimum amounts of money to save on taxes and don’t have any sacrifice in it.
.

Your apparent strong dislike of successful looks to be the root cause of most of your diatribes.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

Be fair in my generalizations? To be filthy rich you have to be greedy and selfish.

Not sure what you mean by “filthy rich”, but lets assume you mean as rich as Bill Gates. He has donated hundreds of millions to charity…that means if he were not filthy rich, we would NOT have donated that money. He may be rich, but he is also quite generous

BryPGuy89:

I could never allow myself to hold more money then to support and pay for expenses and some for savings, after that I would feel obligated to give the remaining amount.

Good for you. Charity is a good thing.

BryPGuy89:

Communism is also about the oppertunity, everyone has the same oppertunities to receive the same education and that the next generations wont get stuck in a wheel of poverty. The youth has the same ability to get a job and support themselves in the country. This give everyone the ability to receive the same outcome.

Karl Marx said “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs!” Basically, communism is not about opportunity…it is only about outcomes.

BryPGuy89:

I read the verses, if you had any sence of understanding

Impressive…yet another very uncharitable comment. Thanks!

BryPGuy89:

you would notice it was a metaphor for the actions of faith. The others built upon their faith and were rewarded for their efforts.

thank you for proving my point. The outcomes were NOT EQUAL!!! In communism, outcomes are equal. Which ties directly back to the topic of this thread that I disagree with. If Jesus were a communist, the outcomes would have been the same.

God Bless.

 

[JP2Admirer]

BryPGuy89:

Not to be rude, but that is one of the stupidest things I have yet read on the forum. Most people don’t have this golden “choice” you speak of. Apparently you have never been with the majority of the U.S. population and the smallest income status. There is only so much education provided to the public for free, after that it costs lots of money which people in the lower classes regardless of their “choices” can’t afford. Suprisingly enough it is the uneducated music artists and sports player that make up a lot of lower class people that do succeed… so explain why those who don’t even benefitt society make more money than entire cities. They didn’t make “good” decisions, they just have some skill in an extracurricular activity, that just happen to get noticed, because I have seen some really poor people who have the same skills if not better who don’t get to go anywhere. This “choice” thing doesn’t really work as much as you think, because I have seen many people do everything they could to get out of the poverty circle and still not be able to get out. The majority by far in America is poor and low income, you can’t tell me that is because almost 80% of the population just make bad decisions all their life, that is rediculous. As for your success stories, how many are there? I could give you entire neighborhoods that people make all kinds of efforts to get better lives than their parents and yet fall short. Poverty exists and apparently you are ignorent of the high levels in our own country.

I apologize for my error, but again I don’t bare false witness to what I have seen and what is in the news. People are in general greedy even if only some. Many people base their decisions on how to make more money and to ensure they have good lives, even if these fail. People don’t want to give a lot of money. The rich give away minimum amounts of money to save on taxes and don’t have any sacrifice in it. Regardless, people have proven that they like to retain pleas much money as possible by skipping some taxes or giving only small amounts, etc… I don’t have to bare witness to anyone, the media and the people of this country bring it out to show the world.

.

This is Marxist rhetoric you are using. You are categorizing the “rich” as being malevolent, which is true in some cases, but not all. Sure there are rich people who are ruthless, who use capitalism to exploit human beings, however, it precisely this kind of labeling that brought about the “liquidation of the kulaks” aka the unabashed starvation of millions of “wealthy” farmers in Russia.

While I understand your compassion for the poor, (I certainly am not a rich man) I was able to attend college by getting loans. Anyone can do that as long as they have not destroyed their credit through poor decisions.

Socialism, although it seems Christian, is really the antithesis of Christianity, because while it boasts of serving the poor, what it really does is consolidate power in the hands of bureacrats who then make the decisions for others. It then creates a dependency on MAN rather than GOD, because man is seen to be the cure all for the problems that he faces.

Marxism seems more about jealousy of what others have. Communism is basically rampant materialism guised in anti-materialism, and for that reason it is anti-Christian for Christ told us to be concerned not with the things of this world but of the next. Communism is purely concerned with this world.

As for the people you have seen who cannot get out of the poverty circle, what are they shooting for? To be a musician or athlete or actor? Worldly pursuits of worldly praise? In those areas, you will never get out of poverty, because the number of people who are pursuing that. You can get out of poverty by driving a bus, hauling cement, selling coffee, anything. In America, while I know people can fall on hard times, and I have done so myself, you can make a living if you are willing to work. Will you be the richest of men? Probably not. But money is more of a burden than a blessing, in spiritual terms.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

Wow, thats charitable.

No choice to study hard with your free public education? No choice to not have babies out of wedlock? No choice to take advantages of what opportunities you do have?

Point number one: my father started out dirt poor, but made good choices and worked hard, and became successful. Sorry, but my family has been there.

Point number two: Your statement about 80% of the population being poor and low income is factually incorrect. The poverty line is $18,850 for a family of 4
(Source: aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/04poverty.shtml)), and the average income per capita is slightly more than $43,000.
(Source:census.gov/hhes/income/histinc/h08a.html)
Also, according to IRS figures, in order to make the top 50% of wage earners, you need to make at least $29,019 (2003, source:www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/03in05tr.xls)).
Are you making up statistics in order to support your weak position?

Your apparent strong dislike of successful looks to be the root cause of most of your diatribes.

Public education wont get you a job that is above the basic, minimum wage these days. For the choices, I mean to get out and get the better education and earn more money. To be able to actually get a job that would go some where. I know that people have the choice of pre marridal sex. I’m just saying a majority of the population don’t have the oppertunity to do that.

Ok, I’m happy for your family, but that is not a common thing for poorer people to get out of it. So your experience, though it is nice, doesn’t apply for the masses.

As for the poverty, I admit I use the term lightly, I mean those in general who struggle to pay bills and live in housing and eat dayly. Not just the dirt poor, but the poor and struggling as well. Even making the 50% wage earner that only leaves you with a little money. That is slightlly less than a teacher makes and we all are aware of how little money teachers make, so 29,000 isn’t saying much after taxes and expenses, which a year are between 16,000-20,000 for a single person living on their own. I’m not making up statistics, just my view of poor is much wider then yours and our governments.

I don’t dislike successful people, I just think they are inadvertently greedy and selfish. I don’t care how successful someone is there is no way to justify having millions of dollars, even extra hundreds of thousands. With all the poverty in the country and the world, I couldn’t think of any way to say it is alright for you to hord money because you made the right “choices”. You some how deserve to have expensive cars and houses that have way to many rooms and pointless junk just because you make good “choices”, while half the world is in the governmental standard of poverty.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

Not sure what you mean by “filthy rich”, but lets assume you mean as rich as Bill Gates. He has donated hundreds of millions to charity…that means if he were not filthy rich, we would NOT have donated that money. He may be rich, but he is also quite generous

Good for you. Charity is a good thing.

Karl Marx said “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs!” Basically, communism is not about opportunity…it is only about outcomes.

Impressive…yet another very uncharitable comment. Thanks!

thank you for proving my point. The outcomes were NOT EQUAL!!! In communism, outcomes are equal. Which ties directly back to the topic of this thread that I disagree with. If Jesus were a communist, the outcomes would have been the same.

God Bless.

My term of filthy rich basically applies to anyone with more than a few million dollars in my opinion. Yes I know not everyone would share this view, but I don’t think it is even appropriate for someone to have more than that. Yes he makes generous gifts, but he doesn’t make a sacrifice, he could easily give more and help many more. He gave away a large percent of his money, he is already half way making back the 40 billion he gave a few years ago. So he gave half his wealth, but he could buy his own country for the money he has. It is nothing in comparison to what people in that possision should give. The way I look at it, in communism everyone would have a regular income of basically the same, at least a certain range, not exactly the same. There would be no need to rely on generous money donations to help the poorer peopl, because there wouldn’t be any.

Again I don’t want to sound rude or mean, but I found some things to be completely rediculous.

That is what I am saying, everyone has the same oppertunity in the beginning so that the outcome is fair to all. Everyone gets the equal education oppertunity so that for their adult life they can look forward to having the same outcome as everyone else.

I don’t want to get mean, but it sounds like I’m arguing with a child. Faith and material belonging are two seperate things entirely. Wanting everyone to build on their faith and they get rewarded for that is not like everyone having the same financial capabilities and be able to live healthy. I don’t see how you can go and mix such things together. Jesus asked for material goods to be shared and for people to live comfortably, also giving what they don’t need to others would go with the sharing. Jesus taught the communal life, sharing the belongings, “the fish and bread” amongst his listeners. asking people to drop everything and follow him. No were have I ever read anywhere in the Bible that someone should have more belongings and financial capabilities. I feel all people have the right to live and live in a decent manner, not the best “choice makers” or oppertunists get to have all the money while the others struggle.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Ya know… NOBODY at Bill Gates’ company, Microsoft, has ever put a gun to anyone’s head and forced them to buy Windows.

People just THROW money at Bill Gates.

What’s the poor guy supposed to do???

People have a choice… MANY choices… Apple/ Mac. is a good alternative. Or Unix/ Linux… for goodness Linux is FREE!!! no charge. Just download it for free.

Think of all the computer systems that have gone away. Just disappeared.

But people just keep buying Microsoft products…

Must be something to it.

But what happens in a Communist society if someone chooses NOT to go along???

Well, one dissident wrote a book, “The Gulag Archipelligo”. That’s what happens.

Way up on the Arctic Circle there a variety of mines, gold mines, all kind of mines, with the workers being unpaid slave laborers…

I know, the Soviets didn’t do it right…

But tell me, in the Communist state that is envisioned by the OP and other posters here… how would you deal with dissenters?

 

[BryPGuy89]

JP2Admirer:

This is Marxist rhetoric you are using. You are categorizing the “rich” as being malevolent, which is true in some cases, but not all. Sure there are rich people who are ruthless, who use capitalism to exploit human beings, however, it precisely this kind of labeling that brought about the “liquidation of the kulaks” aka the unabashed starvation of millions of “wealthy” farmers in Russia.

While I understand your compassion for the poor, (I certainly am not a rich man) I was able to attend college by getting loans. Anyone can do that as long as they have not destroyed their credit through poor decisions.

Socialism, although it seems Christian, is really the antithesis of Christianity, because while it boasts of serving the poor, what it really does is consolidate power in the hands of bureacrats who then make the decisions for others. It then creates a dependency on MAN rather than GOD, because man is seen to be the cure all for the problems that he faces.

Marxism seems more about jealousy of what others have. Communism is basically rampant materialism guised in anti-materialism, and for that reason it is anti-Christian for Christ told us to be concerned not with the things of this world but of the next. Communism is purely concerned with this world.

As for the people you have seen who cannot get out of the poverty circle, what are they shooting for? To be a musician or athlete or actor? Worldly pursuits of worldly praise? In those areas, you will never get out of poverty, because the number of people who are pursuing that. You can get out of poverty by driving a bus, hauling cement, selling coffee, anything. In America, while I know people can fall on hard times, and I have done so myself, you can make a living if you are willing to work. Will you be the richest of men? Probably not. But money is more of a burden than a blessing, in spiritual terms.

I don’t want to come off as saying that the rich are evil or ill intentioned, but up to a certain monetary level I can’t even justify having that money after that level.

To have credit you first have to get it. Many young poor people don’t have the oppertunity to build credit.

I understand that, but in capitalism is jsut as bad if not worse and it doesn’t benefit the poor. Capitalism does the same thing with money, money is the source of everything and it is the remedy to all problems, money comes to be the source and it takes away from God as well.

Yes to limit all persons to have the same and to make everyone have the same things and thus satisfying the jealousy of the poor is as you say. I just like the concept because it allows all people to live and live better than most do. I don’t see how any other government in practice in most of these countries isn’t based on the world and materialism. You could say the same thing about almost all other forms of government, you know why, because that is the government’s job to provide for the material well being of the people.

Like stated in another post here, I admit to use the term poverty loosely. When I speak of poverty I mean anyone that struggles to pay bills, eat, have shelter, or buy basic living materials. Those jobs are jobs and yes anyone with a job is better off than someone without. I’m not talking about the dreamers looking for the big timed at all, I pitty anyone that sets their goals in that direction. I just think all people should be able to have a decent living space, fair job, afford to eat, and have the basic ltems to live, not the higher classes and the rich solely being able to.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Al Masetti:

Ya know… NOBODY at Bill Gates’ company, Microsoft, has ever put a gun to anyone’s head and forced them to buy Windows.

People just THROW money at Bill Gates.

What’s the poor guy supposed to do???

People have a choice… MANY choices… Apple/ Mac. is a good alternative. Or Unix/ Linux… for goodness Linux is FREE!!! no charge. Just download it for free.

Think of all the computer systems that have gone away. Just disappeared.

But people just keep buying Microsoft products…

Must be something to it.

But what happens in a Communist society if someone chooses NOT to go along???

Well, one dissident wrote a book, “The Gulag Archipelligo”. That’s what happens.

Way up on the Arctic Circle there a variety of mines, gold mines, all kind of mines, with the workers being unpaid slave laborers…

I know, the Soviets didn’t do it right…

But tell me, in the Communist state that is envisioned by the OP and other posters here… how would you deal with dissenters?

In communist/socialist ideaology this individual man wouldn’t be the one getting all the money from these sales.

People aren’t forced to live in a communist country. If they want to lleave then I would let them. Yes this could be bad in several ways, but it could be just as beneficial in other ways. If they don’t want to leave the country, just not be communist, then they get fed in a cell in free community living. They get fed jut the basics to promote health and there would be a public park for the community alone within their communal housing. In a sense they will be in prison, but they wont die or be mistreated, if they change their minds and want to work, or leave the country that would be promoted. That might sound barbaric, but laiziness can’t be allowed and openly allowing people to leave should prevent people from having this happen.

 

[Al_Masetti]

BryPGuy89:

In communist/socialist ideaology this individual man wouldn’t be the one getting all the money from these sales.

People aren’t forced to live in a communist country. If they want to lleave then I would let them. Yes this could be bad in several ways, but it could be just as beneficial in other ways. If they don’t want to leave the country, just not be communist, then they get fed in a cell in free community living. They get fed jut the basics to promote health and there would be a public park for the community alone within their communal housing. In a sense they will be in prison, but they wont die or be mistreated, if they change their minds and want to work, or leave the country that would be promoted. That might sound barbaric, but laiziness can’t be allowed and openly allowing people to leave should prevent people from having this happen.

So… then, what would do if so many people “voted with their feet” [where have I heard that expression before], that the country was in danger of being depopulated?

Would you force them to stay? Maybe by building a wall, with machine guns and barbed wire and mine fields?

Would you kill people who tried to leave?

 

[JP2Admirer]

BryPGuy89:

I don’t want to come off as saying that the rich are evil or ill intentioned, but up to a certain monetary level I can’t even justify having that money after that level.

To have credit you first have to get it. Many young poor people don’t have the oppertunity to build credit.

I understand that, but in capitalism is jsut as bad if not worse and it doesn’t benefit the poor. Capitalism does the same thing with money, money is the source of everything and it is the remedy to all problems, money comes to be the source and it takes away from God as well.

Yes to limit all persons to have the same and to make everyone have the same things and thus satisfying the jealousy of the poor is as you say. I just like the concept because it allows all people to live and live better than most do. I don’t see how any other government in practice in most of these countries isn’t based on the world and materialism. You could say the same thing about almost all other forms of government, you know why, because that is the government’s job to provide for the material well being of the people.

Like stated in another post here, I admit to use the term poverty loosely. When I speak of poverty I mean anyone that struggles to pay bills, eat, have shelter, or buy basic living materials. Those jobs are jobs and yes anyone with a job is better off than someone without. I’m not talking about the dreamers looking for the big timed at all, I pitty anyone that sets their goals in that direction. I just think all people should be able to have a decent living space, fair job, afford to eat, and have the basic ltems to live, not the higher classes and the rich solely being able to.

Capitalism DOES benefit the poor. 92% of Americans have televisions these days. Their standard of living is above destitution - there are no famines. 62% of Americans are overweight, many of them poor. You are judging poor by relative standards; relative to other Americans. Poverty in America today is nothing like poverty 100 years ago, where people were starving to death.

Can capitalism be improved? Definitely. Does capitalism exploit human beings? Definitely, but communism is not the answer. Why was it that under the Czar’s in Russia the proportion daily intake of food was greater than in the 1980’s? Because communism, though morally appealing, is practically unworkable. If you decide what my talents are and where I would fit best in the economy, regardless of my interests, I won’t work as hard. I won’t try to accomplish my dreams because they are not my dreams, they are yours. Further, in communism instead of an economic elite you create a political elite; which is more dangerous because it is consolidated in fewer hands. As lord Acton said, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.” What is worse, with no God to check our morals, the absolute leader becomes the moral directive. Anything which stands in the way of “progress” becomes an enemy of the new political (and economic) elite; thus you have mass murder like occurred in communist Russia, China, Vietnam, and anywhere else communism was in power.

Further, the right to property is a fundamental necessity of human rights for it is through this that the inherent dignity of the individual is recognized (how simple we humans are.) By equating Christ with communism, you fall into liberation theology, which makes Christ nothing more than a material reality, that is, a “revolutionary.” He then promises us nothing of eternity.

I understand how appealing “economic equality” is, but its merely a pipe dream in a fallen world. Only God can make true “equality” and with Him there is no equality, at least not in merits but in the dignity of each soul as being His image. Communism is a lie, a snare of the devil, which immitates Christianity to disasterous results. The devil will give you an ocean of truth for on drop of a lie. That small lie, that MAN can create heaven on earth, that MAN should have faith in MAN as his salvation, is a huge lie; which has disasterous consequences.

Need proof? Soviet Union-at least 10 million killed
Pol Pot - murdered 1 million when US pulled out of Vietnam.
China - the death toll is still mounting.