Jesus was Communist

[BryPGuy89]

Al Masetti:

So… then, what would do if so many people “voted with their feet” [where have I heard that expression before], that the country was in danger of being depopulated?

Would you force them to stay? Maybe by building a wall, with machine guns and barbed wire and mine fields?

Would you kill people who tried to leave?

If a true communist goverment existed I would be confident that that wouldn’t be an issue. I don’t see what would turn so many people away. Communism wouldn’t change much except for ownership of businesses and income. There could still be congress and the senate and the president, free election could still be held. I couldn’t think of anything to offset that many people.

Aren’t we cute? You are very funny.

 

[BryPGuy89]

JP2Admirer:

Capitalism DOES benefit the poor. 92% of Americans have televisions these days. Their standard of living is above destitution - there are no famines. 62% of Americans are overweight, many of them poor. You are judging poor by relative standards; relative to other Americans. Poverty in America today is nothing like poverty 100 years ago, where people were starving to death.

Can capitalism be improved? Definitely. Does capitalism exploit human beings? Definitely, but communism is not the answer. Why was it that under the Czar’s in Russia the proportion daily intake of food was greater than in the 1980’s? Because communism, though morally appealing, is practically unworkable. If you decide what my talents are and where I would fit best in the economy, regardless of my interests, I won’t work as hard. I won’t try to accomplish my dreams because they are not my dreams, they are yours. Further, in communism instead of an economic elite you create a political elite; which is more dangerous because it is consolidated in fewer hands. As lord Acton said, “Power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.” What is worse, with no God to check our morals, the absolute leader becomes the moral directive. Anything which stands in the way of “progress” becomes an enemy of the new political (and economic) elite; thus you have mass murder like occurred in communist Russia, China, Vietnam, and anywhere else communism was in power.

Further, the right to property is a fundamental necessity of human rights for it is through this that the inherent dignity of the individual is recognized (how simple we humans are.) By equating Christ with communism, you fall into liberation theology, which makes Christ nothing more than a material reality, that is, a “revolutionary.” He then promises us nothing of eternity.

I understand how appealing “economic equality” is, but its merely a pipe dream in a fallen world. Only God can make true “equality” and with Him there is no equality, at least not in merits but in the dignity of each soul as being His image. Communism is a lie, a snare of the devil, which immitates Christianity to disasterous results. The devil will give you an ocean of truth for on drop of a lie. That small lie, that MAN can create heaven on earth, that MAN should have faith in MAN as his salvation, is a huge lie; which has disasterous consequences.

Need proof? Soviet Union-at least 10 million killed
Pol Pot - murdered 1 million when US pulled out of Vietnam.
China - the death toll is still mounting.

You must be late into this as in the other posts we have already discussed that the “communist” countries people have seen before were not truely communist, but a mixture of communism/totalitarianism/capitalism. Your percents are exagerated I know that. As for the television, how many actually own them and not on credit cards? Most of the belongings people have are not theirs, they belong to credit card companies, which inturn people have to spend most of their money on paying for the rest of their lives. The obesity is because fast food and junk food is more accessible to lower income, it costs more to eat healthy and balanced. This doesn’t take away the fact there are poor. We are such a large nation that the ability to have famine in unlikely, plus the technology we have almost prevents it for now. (side note, did you know that the underground water supply that support nearly all our crops is drying out very quickly?) I am judging it to American standards because that is the main Nation in which I direct my conversation. Czar more % eaten, under communism more actually ate, all getting food instead of those who could afford it. We already have a political elite in America with capitalism. I don’t denote Christ when I think of communism, I just think how those with less on the coultry could have more and we could all live better in a society. Christ would still be in the center of my ideas and behind my actions. I disagree with your view of communism as a tool of evil, because of course that is my view on capitalism. Here our lie is money can make heaven on earth, man should have faith in money for salvation, and our free enterprise allowing porn and what not be big businesses.

Need proof of the evils of capitalism look at our own country, responsible for tens of millions of innocent lives, sinful shows and stores, and crumbling morals.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I don’t want to get mean, but it sounds like I’m arguing with a child. .

Hmmm. You are up to four uncharitable comments. You make up “facts”, provide no documentation for any points you make outside of your own opinion, skim over what other people say (not reading most of it) and repeating the same stuff in each and every post. When people make points you don’t like, you insult them to make up for your inability to put together a coherent argument. And you call me childish?

Lets just leave it to say that you see the glass half empty and I see it half full. You can ignore the multitude of success stories and wallow in despair. I choose not to do that. Many other people choose not to do that as well. Jesus certainly wants us to do more for the poor, but not by lowering the bar so everyone is poor. I think raising people up is a better idea. If that is “childish” than so be it.

take care and God Bless.

 

[JP2Admirer]

BryPGuy89:

You must be late into this as in the other posts we have already discussed that the “communist” countries people have seen before were not truely communist, but a mixture of communism/totalitarianism/capitalism. Your percents are exagerated I know that. As for the television, how many actually own them and not on credit cards? Most of the belongings people have are not theirs, they belong to credit card companies, which inturn people have to spend most of their money on paying for the rest of their lives. The obesity is because fast food and junk food is more accessible to lower income, it costs more to eat healthy and balanced. This doesn’t take away the fact there are poor. We are such a large nation that the ability to have famine in unlikely, plus the technology we have almost prevents it for now. (side note, did you know that the underground water supply that support nearly all our crops is drying out very quickly?) I am judging it to American standards because that is the main Nation in which I direct my conversation. Czar more % eaten, under communism more actually ate, all getting food instead of those who could afford it. We already have a political elite in America with capitalism. I don’t denote Christ when I think of communism, I just think how those with less on the coultry could have more and we could all live better in a society. Christ would still be in the center of my ideas and behind my actions. I disagree with your view of communism as a tool of evil, because of course that is my view on capitalism. Here our lie is money can make heaven on earth, man should have faith in money for salvation, and our free enterprise allowing porn and what not be big businesses.

Need proof of the evils of capitalism look at our own country, responsible for tens of millions of innocent lives, sinful shows and stores, and crumbling morals.

Communism is an IDEAL that is unworkable for fallen humanity. Only God can bring about an ideal, not man. I am in no way defending capitalism in a complete sense, for there are absolute horrors tied to it, including abortion and poor wages being paid, etc.

As for the “under communism” more actually ate, you need to do a more academic historical study (meaning one that isn’t propaganda for communism) because millions were starved to death under the USSR, millions! You are correct in saying that no actual communist nation has fulfilled what Marx envisioned; that actual communism has never happened. However, there is a reason for that; Communism for fallen man is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because we are greedy. We crave power. We crave money. We crave materials. Therefore, there will never be economic equality, becuase no matter how much Stalin or Lenin or Trotsky proclaimed the rights of the proletariat, they still wanted POWER and MONEY for themselves. Hence, they took it, and a new elite they became to disasterous outcomes.

Don’t take the words of Christ lightly: When He says that the poor will always be with us, then they always will. There is nothing we can do that will eradicate poverty. Communism DOES NOT work because it assumes a benevolence of ALL men that does not exist.

With capitalism there certainly are flaws, but in America it has put more wealth into more peoples hands than at any other time in the history of the world. More people have more. While there is still a kind of “economic aristocracy” it is no longer limited to the few, that is, those with the right familial relations. It is open to ALL. As fallen men we can ask for nothing else. As Adam Smith once said, “the free market is like the hand of God” because it directs the economic affairs of man by CHANCE, rather than by BIRTHRIGHT.

 

[Al_Masetti]

BryPGuy89:

If a true communist goverment existed I would be confident that that wouldn’t be an issue. I don’t see what would turn so many people away. Communism wouldn’t change much except for ownership of businesses and income. There could still be congress and the senate and the president, free election could still be held. I couldn’t think of anything to offset that many people.

Aren’t we cute? You are very funny.

So, what would happen if it worked out for some unfathomable reason that people DID leave in large numbers?

What woul you do.

What if the people who werre elected voted for materialism and secularism?

Would you be the dictator above the congress and senate and president?

Would you consent to elections ONLY if the elections validated your own ideas?

Keep in mind, we already have a congress and a senate and a president. And you already know what kind of society we have and what kind of tax code, etc.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

Hmmm. You are up to four uncharitable comments. You make up “facts”, provide no documentation for any points you make outside of your own opinion, skim over what other people say (not reading most of it) and repeating the same stuff in each and every post. When people make points you don’t like, you insult them to make up for your inability to put together a coherent argument. And you call me childish?

Lets just leave it to say that you see the glass half empty and I see it half full. You can ignore the multitude of success stories and wallow in despair. I choose not to do that. Many other people choose not to do that as well. Jesus certainly wants us to do more for the poor, but not by lowering the bar so everyone is poor. I think raising people up is a better idea. If that is “childish” than so be it.

take care and God Bless.

Again I don’t mean to say what I say in a rude way, but only way to pertrey my thought. Again and again I bring up the same things because othrs continually bring up what I have already said. My facts are usually common knowledge and basic teachings, I don’t feel obligated to prove the already known. I don’t skim, I do read the full post. I don’t want to come off insulting, but… Usually I have a reason and prabable reason for my beleives and can hold my argument, if someone can bring up something I haven’t already addressed multiple times. I acknowlledge the success stories, but they only make a small amount incomparison to the failings and negatives. The only flaw with bringing everyone up is, the very idea of capitalism is for there to be a large lower class and a small minority of rich people. The only thing about this is that that is unlikely, as there can only be so much money and posestions in circulation, or there is inflation and complications.

 

[BryPGuy89]

JP2Admirer:

Communism is an IDEAL that is unworkable for fallen humanity. Only God can bring about an ideal, not man. I am in no way defending capitalism in a complete sense, for there are absolute horrors tied to it, including abortion and poor wages being paid, etc.

As for the “under communism” more actually ate, you need to do a more academic historical study (meaning one that isn’t propaganda for communism) because millions were starved to death under the USSR, millions! You are correct in saying that no actual communist nation has fulfilled what Marx envisioned; that actual communism has never happened. However, there is a reason for that; Communism for fallen man is IMPOSSIBLE. Why? Because we are greedy. We crave power. We crave money. We crave materials. Therefore, there will never be economic equality, becuase no matter how much Stalin or Lenin or Trotsky proclaimed the rights of the proletariat, they still wanted POWER and MONEY for themselves. Hence, they took it, and a new elite they became to disasterous outcomes.

Don’t take the words of Christ lightly: When He says that the poor will always be with us, then they always will. There is nothing we can do that will eradicate poverty. Communism DOES NOT work because it assumes a benevolence of ALL men that does not exist.

With capitalism there certainly are flaws, but in America it has put more wealth into more peoples hands than at any other time in the history of the world. More people have more. While there is still a kind of “economic aristocracy” it is no longer limited to the few, that is, those with the right familial relations. It is open to ALL. As fallen men we can ask for nothing else. As Adam Smith once said, “the free market is like the hand of God” because it directs the economic affairs of man by CHANCE, rather than by BIRTHRIGHT.

I’m aware that man is incapable of creating a good government because of our sins. My original point long ago was that in comparison to the teachings of Christ in a social behavior is more similer to communist like views then capitalism. We got off line when people kept trying to take down communism, not even pertaining to the social aspect, but even divinity and faith… We have just gotten very off track.

 

[BryPGuy89]

Al Masetti:

So, what would happen if it worked out for some unfathomable reason that people DID leave in large numbers?

What woul you do.

What if the people who werre elected voted for materialism and secularism?

Would you be the dictator above the congress and senate and president?

Would you consent to elections ONLY if the elections validated your own ideas?

Keep in mind, we already have a congress and a senate and a president. And you already know what kind of society we have and what kind of tax code, etc.

As I said elections could still be held and the people could show their disatisfaction and vote for a different party. It is not a dictatorship. Communism in no way takes away the rights for citizens to be represented in the government. It would be free and open as it is now. The only real difference would be the economic trends, more of an equal pay, no private ownership, etc… We wouldn’t need to change the whole country, laws and leadership behaviors and what not.

 

[Verity1]

BryPGuy89:

Verity1:

BryPGuy89:

“I know many civil rights activists and poor who have always encouraged these ideals. Equality amongst men have been widely adopted and used. Martin Luther King Jr. come off the top of my head, but there have been women wanting equality and racis to. This is nothing new and surprising tha you ned names.”

First time I’ve heard that Martin Luther King was a Communist.
I asked you for an example of an individual COMMUNIST who practised what you say is Communism. You consistently fail to answer questions.

“When it comes to governing the community why would they need to expand? If they work well like that then why bring more into it. I would recognise that as communism.”

There are many Christian groups who do this. What is this obsession with Communism? Why espouse that when you have Christianity as a perfect model?

"If the government was run by devout people with Christian values atleast the country can be run fairly and hopefully without any problems caused by greed and what not. It’s not diluting Christian with communism, but the fraility of man running a communist society following Christian values. I mean it in the sense that communism without good Christian values would not work, not Christianity needing communism.

"

Right. So why bring Communism into the equasion? Why not just work for a Christian world? I mean, if mankind is too frail to consistently follow the teachings of Christianity, even with the help of Divine grace, what on earth makes you think mankind will selflessly work without that Divine grace? And WHAT would be the point? If we have enough grace to follow Christianity, WHY would we want to follow Communism? And if we haven’t got the grace to follow Christianity, why on earth would we practise these Communist “ideals” that you speak of (but which don’t actually exist!)?

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

My facts are usually common knowledge and basic teachings, I don’t feel obligated to prove the already known.

If your “facts” were common knowledge, then there would not be so many people in this forum disagreeing with them.

You may feel that your OPINIONS are factually based, however, when debating people who disagree with you, you do not help your case by making the assumption we should accept your opinion as fact, just because you say so.

Maybe you don’t feel obligated to prove anything. Thats OK. I went to independent sources to check some of your “facts”, and proved them wrong. Therefore, it is reasonable for people in this forum be suspicious of the accuracy of the rest of your “facts” (aka your OPINION).

Lastly, again to tie back to the title of the thread, you have not made a solid case that Jesus was communist (even the definition you use). Yes, Jesus commands us to help the poor, and he instructs us that the love of money will not get you to heaven. I agree with that. But Communist? Hardly.

Peace,

Shockerfan.

p.s. It is quite appropriate that a thread titled “Jesus is Communist” would be in the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum.

 

[JP2Admirer]

BryPGuy89:

I’m aware that man is incapable of creating a good government because of our sins. My original point long ago was that in comparison to the teachings of Christ in a social behavior is more similer to communist like views then capitalism. We got off line when people kept trying to take down communism, not even pertaining to the social aspect, but even divinity and faith… We have just gotten very off track.

I don’t know that communism is more compatible with Christianity than capitalism. Number one, and I know you’ve dealt with this objection already, communisms’ basic premise is Godlessness and a complete ignorance of history because history is nothing but “oppression.”

Number 2, it is purely materialistic; there is no room for anything metaphysical within its framework. As we know, Christ always said His kingdom was “not of this world.” The communist ideology is “completely of this world.”

Number 3, communism assumes an equality of people which simply doesn’t exist. I agree with the communists in the idea that each person has dignity as a human being. This premise, however, gets lost because any human who isn’t part of the revolution can legitimately be removed, since they hinder the attainment of eutopia. Therefore, under communism, human dignity gets reduced to those who favor revolution, and those who oppose it. Those who oppose it, well, they have no dignity because they stand in the way of progress; they stand in the way of the utopia. This then leads to bureaucratic directives being carried out which are anything but moral. And since the communist doesn’t have to answer to God for his immoral behavior, he can kill in the name of progress and still be acting morally within his own eyes.

Christ did proclaim the dignity of each human ("whatever you’ve done unto the least of my brethren…) However, where the communists go wrong is they assume that equal human dignity means equal human merits. This is completely wrong. Throughout the Bible God speaks of the “chosen,” aka the saints. Well, this says something about the merits of people, (not that they can merit their way to heaven) but that they have something that makes them unequal to others. Same human dignity, but different talents.

Number 4, read the parable of the talents. Each was given money and asked to make more of it. Now obviously reading this economically is a very literal interpretation, but it suggests a laisez faire approach.

Number 5, Christ asks people to give of their wealth and follow Him. He doesn’t FORCE them to do so. Communists do. I think freedom of conscience is a little more important than giving to the poor, afterall, free will is what determines any man’s chance of heaven. If you are forced to give your possessions, you aren’t actually giving them; their is no merit to your action. Aristotle once said the “crime is in the intention,” so is the virtue.

Number 6, read the parable of the workers in the vineyard. God pays the same wages to those who worked for only a few hours to those who worked all day. More work for less money, less work for more money, sounds like capitalism to me.

Finally, God also says not to store up your riches and let them rot. People should give of their wealth, and those who choose not to will meet their Judge, Who is the giver of all wealth, Who is the actual owner of all. What does any of us own that was not given to us? The avaricious wealthy will get their desserts.

Communism like all great lies, MIRRORS the truth, and contains so much of it with such slight deviations that without careful attention it will swallow even the best of men.

Afterall, as Augustine said, we cannot willfully choose evil. We choose what we THINK is good, even though it may not be (aka “freedom of choice” vs. "murder of the unborn.) People can side with abortion because it is touted as a “good.” The same is true of communism. Christ said a “tree is known by its fruits.” What are the fruits of Marxism in whatever form it has reared its ugly head?

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

If your “facts” were common knowledge, then there would not be so many people in this forum disagreeing with them.

You may feel that your OPINIONS are factually based, however, when debating people who disagree with you, you do not help your case by making the assumption we should accept your opinion as fact, just because you say so.

Maybe you don’t feel obligated to prove anything. Thats OK. I went to independent sources to check some of your “facts”, and proved them wrong. Therefore, it is reasonable for people in this forum be suspicious of the accuracy of the rest of your “facts” (aka your OPINION).

Lastly, again to tie back to the title of the thread, you have not made a solid case that Jesus was communist (even the definition you use). Yes, Jesus commands us to help the poor, and he instructs us that the love of money will not get you to heaven. I agree with that. But Communist? Hardly.

Peace,

Shockerfan.

p.s. It is quite appropriate that a thread titled “Jesus is Communist” would be in the “Non-Catholic Religions” forum.

My facts or opinions, whatever you want to call them come from three main sources, School text books, T.V. (History channel and discovery channel…), and my browsing on the web. My facts come from sources that are usually refertable and I there for stand by them. As for people disagreeing with me it is only a few peole and on specific parts of my posts, usually not even the whole general idea of my posts.

I can only ask from what stance do you get where he didn’t talk in a communist ideaology, I have been defending myself and have yet come across a reason to denounce that opinion. This whole thread to my understanding is about the physical world and the behavior of people socially in it, not the salvation, as salvation can’t be attained by a worldly government, so I don’t know why people keep trying to turn it into such. If my understanding of the original meaning of the topic is not the same as yours please share what it is.

 

[BryPGuy89]

JP2Admirer:

I don’t know that communism is more compatible with Christianity than capitalism. Number one, and I know you’ve dealt with this objection already, communisms’ basic premise is Godlessness and a complete ignorance of history because history is nothing but “oppression.”

Number 2, it is purely materialistic; there is no room for anything metaphysical within its framework. As we know, Christ always said His kingdom was “not of this world.” The communist ideology is “completely of this world.”

Number 3, communism assumes an equality of people which simply doesn’t exist. I agree with the communists in the idea that each person has dignity as a human being. This premise, however, gets lost because any human who isn’t part of the revolution can legitimately be removed, since they hinder the attainment of eutopia. Therefore, under communism, human dignity gets reduced to those who favor revolution, and those who oppose it. Those who oppose it, well, they have no dignity because they stand in the way of progress; they stand in the way of the utopia. This then leads to bureaucratic directives being carried out which are anything but moral. And since the communist doesn’t have to answer to God for his immoral behavior, he can kill in the name of progress and still be acting morally within his own eyes.

Christ did proclaim the dignity of each human ("whatever you’ve done unto the least of my brethren…) However, where the communists go wrong is they assume that equal human dignity means equal human merits. This is completely wrong. Throughout the Bible God speaks of the “chosen,” aka the saints. Well, this says something about the merits of people, (not that they can merit their way to heaven) but that they have something that makes them unequal to others. Same human dignity, but different talents.

Number 4, read the parable of the talents. Each was given money and asked to make more of it. Now obviously reading this economically is a very literal interpretation, but it suggests a laisez faire approach.

Number 5, Christ asks people to give of their wealth and follow Him. He doesn’t FORCE them to do so. Communists do. I think freedom of conscience is a little more important than giving to the poor, afterall, free will is what determines any man’s chance of heaven. If you are forced to give your possessions, you aren’t actually giving them; their is no merit to your action. Aristotle once said the “crime is in the intention,” so is the virtue.

Number 6, read the parable of the workers in the vineyard. God pays the same wages to those who worked for only a few hours to those who worked all day. More work for less money, less work for more money, sounds like capitalism to me.

Finally, God also says not to store up your riches and let them rot. People should give of their wealth, and those who choose not to will meet their Judge, Who is the giver of all wealth, Who is the actual owner of all. What does any of us own that was not given to us? The avaricious wealthy will get their desserts.

Communism like all great lies, MIRRORS the truth, and contains so much of it with such slight deviations that without careful attention it will swallow even the best of men.

Afterall, as Augustine said, we cannot willfully choose evil. We choose what we THINK is good, even though it may not be (aka “freedom of choice” vs. "murder of the unborn.) People can side with abortion because it is touted as a “good.” The same is true of communism. Christ said a “tree is known by its fruits.” What are the fruits of Marxism in whatever form it has reared its ugly head?

Number 2, I haven’t this whole time had any idea that we were talking about the governments representing our faith somehow, but for our physical being and social behavior.

Number 3, I already said it wouldn’t be forced on anyone, I’m just saying if we were to elect a communist president for say, many things would remain mostly the same just a few things would change.

Number 4, I am talking of the physical well being of people and under Christian morals, in matters of faith that would be different.

Number 5, Like I said it wouldn’t be forced, collected in taxes and what not, elected officials would do these things and wouldn’t be there without people consent.

Number 6, communist all get the same.

 

[Al_Masetti]

BryPGuy89:

As I said elections could still be held and the people could show their disatisfaction and vote for a different party. It is not a dictatorship. Communism in no way takes away the rights for citizens to be represented in the government. It would be free and open as it is now. The only real difference would be the economic trends, more of an equal pay, no private ownership, etc… We wouldn’t need to change the whole country, laws and leadership behaviors and what not.

So, what you are saying (am I getting this right?) is that if people voted for unequal pay, private ownership, etc and a totally different structure of laws and economic incentives and penalties, then it wouldn’t change anything.

Did I get that right?

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I can only ask from what stance do you get where he didn’t talk in a communist ideaology, I have been defending myself and have yet come across a reason to denounce that opinion. This whole thread to my understanding is about the physical world and the behavior of people socially in it, not the salvation, as salvation can’t be attained by a worldly government, so I don’t know why people keep trying to turn it into such. If my understanding of the original meaning of the topic is not the same as yours please share what it is.

OK, from what I have read of your definition of communism, is that everybody gets the same education, same pay, same “stuff”. The problem with that is the following:
a) not everyone has the same ability
b) some jobs are more demanding than others. For example, to become a doctor you need an extra 4-6 years of school. Why become a doctor, if under communism, you can make the same as a truck driver or gardener or Walmart door greeter? Why would anyone every pick a job that is more demanding if the rewards are the same?
c) Lastly, as it relates to Jesus and the bible, here is a link with all of the biblical references to money:
preachingtoday.com/illustrations/topicalreference.html?keyword=Money

Read them and you get the following messages:

1. be generous to the poor
2. love of money is evil
3. Share

I don’t see any verse that implies communism, which is totally different than sharing. (For example, Bill Gates shares millions). Do you have specific verses that speak of your definition of communism?

 

[BryPGuy89]

Al Masetti:

So, what you are saying (am I getting this right?) is that if people voted for unequal pay, private ownership, etc and a totally different structure of laws and economic incentives and penalties, then it wouldn’t change anything.

Did I get that right?

I’m sorry your post confuses me, are you trying to say that is a communist country had the people vote for these things right. I don’t see many different laws structure or penalties that would be contrary to communist ideals for them to vote against. The incentive would be for the welfare of the group/state whatever, which I know would probably not be attainable in our time, but the idea is noble. That would be differnet, working to help the entire country instead of getting rich, that incentive would be mind boggling to many I know.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

OK, from what I have read of your definition of communism, is that everybody gets the same education, same pay, same “stuff”. The problem with that is the following:
a) not everyone has the same ability
b) some jobs are more demanding than others. For example, to become a doctor you need an extra 4-6 years of school. Why become a doctor, if under communism, you can make the same as a truck driver or gardener or Walmart door greeter? Why would anyone every pick a job that is more demanding if the rewards are the same?
c) Lastly, as it relates to Jesus and the bible, here is a link with all of the biblical references to money:
preachingtoday.com/illustrations/topicalreference.html?keyword=Money

Read them and you get the following messages:

1. be generous to the poor
2. love of money is evil
3. Share

I don’t see any verse that implies communism, which is totally different than sharing. (For example, Bill Gates shares millions). Do you have specific verses that speak of your definition of communism?

a) communism applies usually people with an ability to where they can use that ability.
b)communism doens’t imply that everyone gets exactly the same wages necessarily, as I used earlier a range of income that ins’t super low or high depending on effort and demand would still follow this.

I don’t get how you don’t get communism, everyone getting something that they can live off, because the whole nation is willing to pay taxes or take a more reasonable salary for the benefit of all. Generosity, love, and sharing right there if the people’s heart is in the right place.
As for you example that is like me giving away hundreds of dollars, in relationship to to potential ability to donate. My definition of communism is basic, everyone should have a more fair pay and the right to live, this includes sharing of goods and money and the generosity of people due to their love, that touches basis on all the things you got out of the web sight you used. I don’t think a lazy doctor who just has everyone of his patients go through pointless tests so he doesn’t have to interact with them or do anything should make a larger by far income then some hard working construction worker. (not implying that all doctors are lazy or construction workers all are hardworking) My overall view is that some people in our country completely make too much money, no CEO should be making millions and billions of dollars when the company is paying minimum wage to regular employees. Their jobs usually aren’t that demanding to constitute such a thing.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

I don’t get how you don’t get communism, everyone getting something that they can live off, because the whole nation is willing to pay taxes or take a more reasonable salary for the benefit of all. Generosity, love, and sharing right there if the people’s heart is in the right place.

My hang up is that your view is very idealistic, and basically 100% impossible to implement here on earth. Most people would have to be forced into such a system. Also, you actually destroy incentive to improve, take risks, be creative. The tax rate is a good example. Every time in American history that tax rates have been cut, the economy grew (which means more jobs). Coolidge, Kennedy, Reagan and Bush 43 cut taxes, and in each case revenues increases due to the growth of the economy and thus the tax base. When you raise taxes, you stifle growth, and thus stifle job creation.

Your desires fly in the face of human nature, and thus cannot ever work.

BryPGuy89:

I don’t think a lazy doctor who just has everyone of his patients go through pointless tests so he doesn’t have to interact with them or do anything should make a larger by far income then some hard working construction worker. (not implying that all doctors are lazy or construction workers all are hardworking)

Understand that the “lazy” doctor had to work very hard in school (4 yrs of high school, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, plus possibly 2-3 years of specialization), whereas the hard working construction worker could have learned everything he knew on the job, and does not even need a high school education. Therefore, to reiterate my point, if the reward for the doctor is not significant enough to justify possibly 15 more years of school, then why do it. It would not be worth the effort!

BryPGuy89:

My overall view is that some people in our country completely make too much money, no CEO should be making millions and billions of dollars when the company is paying minimum wage to regular employees. Their jobs usually aren’t that demanding to constitute such a thing.

I understand the point you are trying to make, and in some cases you may be correct. However, in the case of a Bill Gates (he makes such a good example), there are over 61,000 people that have a job just because of him. (Those are just the ones that work for Microsoft, it does not count the other people who either sell, train, or use Microsoft products in their own businesses) That is 61,000 people able to provide for their families because of him. Why do you care what he makes? If you had things your way, he may never have taken the risk to go into business, because his pay would be in line with a construction worker. Communism would destroy job creation, and would cause the growth of a welfare state. To say otherwise is to deny human nature.

 

[shockerfan]

BryPGuy89:

a) communism applies usually people with an ability to where they can use that ability.
b)communism doens’t imply that everyone gets exactly the same wages necessarily, as I used earlier a range of income that ins’t super low or high depending on effort and demand would still follow this.

I don’t get how you don’t get communism, everyone getting something that they can live off, because the whole nation is willing to pay taxes or take a more reasonable salary for the benefit of all. Generosity, love, and sharing right there if the people’s heart is in the right place.
As for you example that is like me giving away hundreds of dollars, in relationship to to potential ability to donate. My definition of communism is basic, everyone should have a more fair pay and the right to live, this includes sharing of goods and money and the generosity of people due to their love, that touches basis on all the things you got out of the web sight you used. I don’t think a lazy doctor who just has everyone of his patients go through pointless tests so he doesn’t have to interact with them or do anything should make a larger by far income then some hard working construction worker. (not implying that all doctors are lazy or construction workers all are hardworking) My overall view is that some people in our country completely make too much money, no CEO should be making millions and billions of dollars when the company is paying minimum wage to regular employees. Their jobs usually aren’t that demanding to constitute such a thing.

By the way, you never did provide any biblical verses that show Jesus would support your definition of communism.

 

[BryPGuy89]

shockerfan:

My hang up is that your view is very idealistic, and basically 100% impossible to implement here on earth. Most people would have to be forced into such a system. Also, you actually destroy incentive to improve, take risks, be creative. The tax rate is a good example. Every time in American history that tax rates have been cut, the economy grew (which means more jobs). Coolidge, Kennedy, Reagan and Bush 43 cut taxes, and in each case revenues increases due to the growth of the economy and thus the tax base. When you raise taxes, you stifle growth, and thus stifle job creation.

Your desires fly in the face of human nature, and thus cannot ever work.

Understand that the “lazy” doctor had to work very hard in school (4 yrs of high school, 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, plus possibly 2-3 years of specialization), whereas the hard working construction worker could have learned everything he knew on the job, and does not even need a high school education. Therefore, to reiterate my point, if the reward for the doctor is not significant enough to justify possibly 15 more years of school, then why do it. It would not be worth the effort!

I understand the point you are trying to make, and in some cases you may be correct. However, in the case of a Bill Gates (he makes such a good example), there are over 61,000 people that have a job just because of him. (Those are just the ones that work for Microsoft, it does not count the other people who either sell, train, or use Microsoft products in their own businesses) That is 61,000 people able to provide for their families because of him. Why do you care what he makes? If you had things your way, he may never have taken the risk to go into business, because his pay would be in line with a construction worker. Communism would destroy job creation, and would cause the growth of a welfare state. To say otherwise is to deny human nature.

Im aware that few people could possibly live in this life style, but my point is that Jesus talked of us trying to find a social life similar to communism. As for the tax cuts, you are aware that following those there were huge economic depressions?

Are you defending the doctor that lead to the medical bills that could possibly lead several families into baank ruptcy? Because he had the oppertunity to attend that many years of higher education he deserves more money even though he doesn’t benefit society or anything? My point is that many, maybe not most, people with high incomes shouldn’t receive it.

The false communism, while following some of the principles in Russia brought that region two hundred years up to date after the Zcars had failed to do so. Even that wasn’t complete communism it still lead to a lot of job creation and growth, this in my opinion nullifies your example of Gates making job and communism stiffling it.