Jesus was not created

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Peregrinans

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Hi everyone,

After reading through the forums I just wanted to clarify something.

Jesus was not created by God. Jesus is God and became incarnate. God lowered himself to enter into his own creation. “And through him (Jesus) all things were made.” That means that Jesus/God created everything. I felt the need to post this after reading some posts on these forums which stated that God created Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus sinless. Jesus made Adam, Eve and Mary. He entered into his own creation by lowering himself via the incarnation. Jesus is fully God, and was fully human while on Earth. And as a human he obeyed all of the rules of God, including doing the will of God, praying to God and honoring God. However, he never stopped being part of the Trinity, so he has always existed (remember, “Before Abraham, I Am!”) , he has always been God, so he was never “created.” Just thought I’d share my thoughts.
 
The body of Jesus was created, for He came into the world in the flesh.

Of course, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity, always was and always will be.

Jim
 
Peregrinans said:
Hi everyone,

After reading through the forums I just wanted to clarify something.

Jesus was not created by God. Jesus is God and became incarnate. God lowered himself to enter into his own creation. “And through him (Jesus) all things were made.” That means that Jesus/God created everything. I felt the need to post this after reading some posts on these forums which stated that God created Adam, Eve, Mary and Jesus sinless. Jesus made Adam, Eve and Mary. He entered into his own creation by lowering himself via the incarnation. Jesus is fully God, and was fully human while on Earth. And as a human he obeyed all of the rules of God, including doing the will of God, praying to God and honoring God. However, he never stopped being part of the Trinity, so he has always existed (remember, “Before Abraham, I Am!”) , he has always been God, so he was never “created.” Just thought I’d share my thoughts.
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Jesus, as man, was created.

Since by the rules of the communication of idioms, what can be communicated concretely about Christ in one nature can be communicated about him as person in positive terms, it is perfectly legit and orthodox to say:

“Jesus was created sinless.”

just as it would be as accurate to say:

“God died.”

But clarifications can always be used to ensure there is no confusion.

“Jesus, as man, was created sinless.”
 
Peregrinans said:
“And through him (Jesus) all things were made.” That means that Jesus/God created everything
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Since you’re clarifying language, I’d point out that the Word did not have a human nature at the creation of the world; so someone could, with reason, object to saying that “Jesus created the world.” The Eternal Word, not the human nature of Jesus, is co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Ghost.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The body of Jesus was created, for He came into the world in the flesh.

Of course, the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity, always was and always will be.

Jim
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Flesh that he created. “Through him ALL things were made.” The “him” is referring to Jesus.
 
porthos11 said:
Jesus, as man, was created.

Since by the rules of the communication of idioms, what can be communicated concretely about Christ in one nature can be communicated about him as person in positive terms, it is perfectly legit and orthodox to say:

“Jesus was created sinless.”

just as it would be as accurate to say:

“God died.”

But clarifications can always be used to ensure there is no confusion.

“Jesus, as man, was created sinless.”
Click to expand...
Except Jesus wasn’t created. “Begotten not made.” Jesus is the second person of the trinity. The second person of a Triune God. There is only one God, so God entered his creation via the incarnation. One person of the Trinity didn’t “create” a man that housed the spirit of the second person of the Trinity. Our one triune God became incarnate and walked among us as Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Mary and step-son of Joesph the carpenter.
 
Jesus, born of the Father before all ages.

Not born to the Father.

Born of means He was both created(or begotten… really what we are going to decide a word means to us as interpretation) and of the exact same thing.

So hence second “person” but of that which is ONE.

So there are three things 1 the Prime, 2 that which was OF the Prime and is still a piece of like an arm, and that which was formed of the two former, that is also part of the Prime. Ergo all are actually one with the Prime but disticnt.

In an imperfect example if I were only a head and of my head came a torso and of my head and torso came my limbs, these are identifiable as seperate yet all truly identifiable as me in one.

Even soul/body of humans. If we are soul and body, two distinct things but are really only one being.
 
Also, a clarification:

It would be correct to say that Jesus was “born” sinless, but not “created” sinless. I think sometimes people forget that there is only one God. God is eternal, he didn’t create himself he has always existed. Our one God is a Triune God that exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All have existed together eternally. Our one triune God, in order to make a new covenant with man, entered creation by lowering himself and through the incarnation he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. He was fully human, he was named Jesus and was bound by God´s laws for mankind… He was sinless, the perfect sacrificial lamb, and through his very human suffering took on our sins and allowed himself to be tortured, crucified and killed. On the third day he rose from the dead and then ascended into Heaven where he is seated at the right hand of the Father. So the trinity always exited, not created. The Son always existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The second person of the Trinity entered via incarnation, and was born, but not created since he always existed.
 
Peregrinans said:
Except Jesus wasn’t created. “Begotten not made.” Jesus is the second person of the trinity. The second person of a Triune God. There is only one God, so God entered his creation via the incarnation. One person of the Trinity didn’t “create” a man that housed the spirit of the second person of the Trinity. Our one triune God became incarnate and walked among us as Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Mary and step-son of Joesph the carpenter.
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Again, you’re forgetting the communication of idioms and its rules. What can be ascribed to one nature can be ascribed to the Person.

Jesus is created, because is man. He is also uncreated because is God.

The Second Person of the Trinity of course is uncreated.

Your statement that refers to Christ as a man that “housed” the spirit of the Second Person is also problematic as it sounds too much like the old heresy that claimed Jesus had no human soul (this may not be what you meant). Jesus had a created, human soul, just like the rest of us.

According to the rules of the communicatio idiomatum, the following statements are orthodox:

“Jesus, [as man] is created.”
“Jesus, [as God] is uncreated.”

The words in brackets are prudently inserted to clarify the statements, but removing them does not detract from the orthodoxy of the statements because the communication of idioms, subject to its rules, allows us to ascribe to the person as a whole what we would ascribe to him in one nature.

It must be noted though, that caution should be exercised especially where misinterpretation is likely. A statement like “Jesus is a creature” has been the foundation of the Arian heresy, although technically orthodox by the rules of the communication of idioms. It is best then, to always clarify statements to be clear: “Jesus, as man, is a creature.”
 
Peregrinans said:
Flesh that he created. “Through him ALL things were made.” The “him” is referring to Jesus.
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Correct, flesh was created, Jesus was flesh, but also Divine.

Before Jesus was born, God did not exist in the flesh, but only in spirit.

Jim
 
Would it be fair to say that the Second Person of the Trinity — the Logos — was not created, but when “the Word became flesh”, *that *was Jesus? So the “flesh” was created…

I mean, there was no “Jesus” per se before the Incarnation — where Jesus was wholly man/wholly God, before Jesus was only Logos, “wholly God”. Jesus still exists now, as the [divine] Logos/[human] Jesus.

To use an imperfect* analogy, I existed since my birth. John Lazarus, who is me, did not exist until I created his profile on this site. But I existed — just not [as] John Lazarus. The account/profile/avatar/whatever you call the digital presence did not exist, even though it is wholly me and I did exist… ?]

OK, I just broke my brain… :whacky:

*Analogies are inherently imperfect — I hate using them. Even more so when trying to explain a divine mystery.
 
I don’t understand the holy trinity nor can I explain it. I find that trying to explain it, or having it explained to me, only confuses me more. And then when I think I have it figured out, someone comes in and says, no, that’s wrong, that was deemed heresy years ago.

So I honestly don’t know.
 
Alex_H said:
I don’t understand the holy trinity nor can I explain it. I find that trying to explain it, or having it explained to me, only confuses me more. And then when I think I have it figured out, someone comes in and says, no, that’s wrong, that was deemed heresy years ago.

So I honestly don’t know.
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The best way to understand it, the way I came up with, which is probably wrong, but it goes like this.

We are created in God’s image. Body, soul and spirit.

So, God is body soul and spirit.

The Father = the soul

Jesus = the body

The Holy Ghost, = the Spirit

A three are part of the One God, as we will one day be one with our risen body, soul an spirit.

Jim
 
Alex_H said:
I don’t understand the holy trinity nor can I explain it. I find that trying to explain it, or having it explained to me, only confuses me more. And then when I think I have it figured out, someone comes in and says, no, that’s wrong, that was deemed heresy years ago.

So I honestly don’t know.
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And it cannot be any other way. None of us understand the Trinity and neither can we explain it. This is God we’re talking about and we are merely finite creatures. Anyone who claims to fully understand the Trinity is either deluded or lying.

Saying something is “wrong” is in fact a good way of synthesizing an understanding of the Trinity, alongside what’s “right.” This is called the via negativa, or the negative way. In cases pertaining to the Trinity, it is often better to explain what God is not (The Trinity is not three forms of God; the Word is not a creature; the Word is not the soul of Christ; the Trinity is not three Gods, etc.).
 
The eternal second person of the divine unity “took on” human flesh.
His flesh was conceived, born in the womb, entered into substance and history “in the fullness of time”. There was a time when his flesh was not.
 
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