Jesus was not the messiah?

[StGerardMajella]

If Jesus was really found guilty of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin, why was he not simply stoned to death, as Jewish law required (Mishnah Sanhedrin 6:4 h & i)?

The New Testament makes it quite clear why the Sanhedrin was fearful of killing Christ, whether by stoning or any other means. Christ had many Jewish followers, and the Sanhedrin was fearful of an uprising from these followers as well as fearful of reprisal from the Roman authorities.

Why is the original trial account of Jesus so full of other unhistorical details and just plain mistakes that could never have actually happen as portrayed?

Eyewitness accounts vary.

Who were Jesus’ disciples, and why is it no Gospels agree on who they were? Why do the disciples disappear so quickly in the New Testament after the Gospels, only to pop up again centuries later when churches start spinning rival legends that they were busy founding Christian communities all along? If any were martyred for their faith, as Christians frequently insist, why don’t we have any details of any of the disciples’s deaths in the bible?

He had twelve disciples, as Scripture states. Scripture provides the names of the disciples as well as the replacement for Judas at a later date. (Who disappears quickly? We do have details of the deaths of the disciples in the Bible, as well as records of many Catholic martyrs in Butler’s Lives of the Saints.)

Why can’t the Gospels agree on so many fundamental facts about Jesus’ life and ministry?

Eyewitness accounts vary. Same as above.

Why are the Gospels all written in Greek, not Aramaic?

The Peshitta is in Aramaic, and believed by a minority of scholars to be the original New Testament. (Regardless, this, too, is irrelevant, as the Peshitta and the Greek New Testament have differences, albeit slight.)

Why is Paul – and every other Christian writer from the first generation of Christianity – so silent on any details of Jesus’ life? Why do they display so much ignorance of Jesus’ teachings and miracles?

Opinion.

Despite the frequent boasts in the New Testament of Christianity spreading like wildfire, attracting new converts by the thousands with every new miracle or inspired sermon, why does Christianity remain a struggling, obscure cult of feuding house churches on the fringe of Roman society for more than three centuries?

Jewish and Roman persecution.

*The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) - It was. It’s called the Vatican Council of Cardinals.

• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
  Kings throughout the last two thousand years have looked to Christ’s message for guidance, including royalty in our own age.
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
  More so now, than ever before, in large part because Christianity has spread the Gospel to every part of the planet.
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
  Christ’s lineage to King David is quite clearly outlined in the New Testament, (regardless of the absurd protestations about Christ not being a flesh and blood son of Joseph because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit).
• The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
  Christ was a Torah observant Jew.
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
  And still cannot, even to this very day.
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
  See above. Because of Christianity, there is not a single country on the planet that has not heard of the G-d of Israel.
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
  He has. And they are in the Catholic Church.
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
  They have returned to their spiritual homeland, the legacy of their forefathers, if they follow Christ.
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
  If you follow Christ, you will have eternal life.
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
  Spiritual death, spiritual hunger, spiritual illness - All cease by following Christ. Not to mention the many physical miracles associated with Christ.
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
  Dead in spirit come to life with Christ.
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
  If they follow Christ, yes.
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
  Christ practiced and preached non-violence.
• Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
  Christian nations are acutely aware of sins against spiritual Israel. Confession, acts of penance, etc.
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
  Yes, Christ and his chosen successors - Peter, and successors.
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
  Spiritual ruins.
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
  The second coming. Book of Revelation.
• The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
  Spiritual temple is already rebuilt - It is called the Catholic Church.
• He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
  See above. Christianity has spread to every part of the planet.
• Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
  A charge even the rabbis of his age gave against Christ as not being “educated”, and being astounded at his spiritual knowledge and knowledge of Torah.
• He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
  He does.
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
  The barren spiritual land is now fruitful, in Christ.

 

[praestat_fides]

The New Testament makes it quite clear why the Sanhedrin was fearful of killing Christ, whether by stoning or any other means. Christ had many Jewish followers, and the Sanhedrin was fearful of an uprising from these followers as well as fearful of reprisal from the Roman authorities.

Eyewitness accounts vary.

He had twelve disciples, as Scripture states. Scripture provides the names of the disciples as well as the replacement for Judas at a later date. (Who disappears quickly? We do have details of the deaths of the disciples in the Bible, as well as records of many Catholic martyrs in Butler’s Lives of the Saints.)

Eyewitness accounts vary. Same as above.

The Peshitta is in Aramaic, and believed by a minority of scholars to be the original New Testament. (Regardless, this, too, is irrelevant, as the Peshitta and the Greek New Testament have differences, albeit slight.)

Opinion.

Jewish and Roman persecution.

*The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) - It was. It’s called the Vatican Council of Cardinals.

• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)
  Kings throughout the last two thousand years have looked to Christ’s message for guidance, including royalty in our own age.
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)
  More so now, than ever before, in large part because Christianity has spread the Gospel to every part of the planet.
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)
  Christ’s lineage to King David is quite clearly outlined in the New Testament, (regardless of the absurd protestations about Christ not being a flesh and blood son of Joseph because he was conceived by the Holy Spirit).
• The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)
  Christ was a Torah observant Jew.
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
  And still cannot, even to this very day.
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
  See above. Because of Christianity, there is not a single country on the planet that has not heard of the G-d of Israel.
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
  He has. And they are in the Catholic Church.
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
  They have returned to their spiritual homeland, the legacy of their forefathers, if they follow Christ.
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
  If you follow Christ, you will have eternal life.
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
  Spiritual death, spiritual hunger, spiritual illness - All cease by following Christ. Not to mention the many physical miracles associated with Christ.
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
  Dead in spirit come to life with Christ.
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
  If they follow Christ, yes.
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
  Christ practiced and preached non-violence.
• Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
  Christian nations are acutely aware of sins against spiritual Israel. Confession, acts of penance, etc.
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
  Yes, Christ and his chosen successors - Peter, and successors.
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
  Spiritual ruins.
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
  The second coming. Book of Revelation.
• The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot
  Spiritual temple is already rebuilt - It is called the Catholic Church.
• He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
  See above. Christianity has spread to every part of the planet.
• Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
  A charge even the rabbis of his age gave against Christ as not being “educated”, and being astounded at his spiritual knowledge and knowledge of Torah.
• He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
  He does.
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)
  The barren spiritual land is now fruitful, in Christ.

Geez…you bring new meaning to the expression “grasping at straws”

 

[BrethrenBoy]

I actually did… thanks. I actually did end up seeing many articles with Christian apologist refuting his claims.

Would you mind sending some of the best ones to me? Your post has made me curious, and due to life I don’t have as much time to spend researching apologetics as I would like.

 

[Frankenfurter]

• Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

You have given a huge list of points. It would take many threads to discuss each one. But I believe the flavor would be the same in all cases. So I will take this seemingly simple one as an example.

The interpretation of scripture given, that the Jews will know the Torah without study is clearly NOT what that scripture is saying and reveals a specific anti-Christian bias. What I mean is that if one ASSUMES that there is no new covenant that actually happened (Jesus), then you are forced to find an interpretation of this scripture without reference to the actual New Testament - you only have the old.

The scripture in question actually describes that the new covenant will be written on the hearts of the people. This is the love we have for Christ and the Father. This is real and has come to pass.

To say that this scripture means that the Jews will all memorize the Torah reveals a desire to stay connected with the old legalistic laws, written on stone tablets.

We have record of Jews of Jesus’ time having the same kind of objections. There is nothing new here that isn’t addressed within the Gospels and other New testament books. But it would of course take some time to point out the error of each one.

In each case you will find that the statement made is not in agreement with the Old or New Testament itself, and certainly not the correct interpretation of the old in light of the new. They represent strained interpretations that you have to make if you throw out the NT to start with.

Seriously, to say that Jeremiah 31:33 means that Jews will know the Torah without study is quite a stretch. It says nothing of the kind, and that kind of simple interpretation misses the entire point of what it actually says.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Geez…you bring new meaning to the expression “grasping at straws”

Feel free to refute. Specifics help.

You either believe that Christ is the Messiah, or you do not. Christ in his own time answered and quite concisely refuted similar arguments from his enemies. These arguments are repeated thoroughly throughout the Gospel. Let the Gospel speak for itself.

 

[Josephene]

Tomorrow being Feast of St.Alphonsa of The Eastern S.M . Church , was reading through
St. John Paul 11’s insights on the meaning of suffering , which has been also a major theme of the above saints’s hidden life ; her grace and goodness was brought to light afterwards , in a most miraculous manner by The Lord - we met the boy , a gentle , humble soul , who was miraculously healed of club feet at the age of one, through the intercession of this saint ; he was there with the family , during her canonistaion ceremony, in Rome .

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

The writings of Bl.Emmerich , an illiterate nun who was revealed /shown, in visions , the history of the world from its beginings , until the time of the Assumption of The Bl.Mother, esp. the discovery of her home and her last days near Ephesus , are all probbaly God given blessings for our times when The Lord knew there would be such attacks against faith !

The above nun also warns that our times would see an intensification of the activity of evil spirits and would faith not be an area that they would esp. target - thus possibly good idea to invoke the angels specifically too, such as through the Chaplet of St.Michael !

The Church giveds us ample meausres , to arm oursleves in many ways - esp. confession - which , as per Rev Fr.Gary Thomas , the exorcist , can be as powerful as exorcism ! and the other Sacraments as well ;

one of the very good such help could be repenting / asking for mercy , through such devotions as the Chaplet of Mercy , on behalf of all in our lives and even family lines - some would say , even all the way to Adam and Eve - for their disbelief , for rebellion against God in many forms among our ancestors …

Would one need to even consider such matters as possible participation in many trials against the Holy Family …( this from having heard of the dire poverty in certain areas of Egypt ! )

… for any participation in the Crucifiction and down through the centuries , for actions againtst God’s chosen and those in The Church … the saints …and so on , by any in our lines !

Thus , one hopefully gets the grace to be set free from the legalistic claims of the enemy and come to see more , the infinite nature of the grace of God, given to us , in The Lord - which is a major focus in family healing …

The Lord’s love and merits , helping us thus , to participate more fully , in The Life of Most Divine Family of The Trinity …to help others to do so more …

for a Catholic , if we listen carefully , all these aspects of The Truth are there , at every Holy Mass,
which is The Gift that Lord came to leave for us His children and in Him, with Him, repentance , asking for mercy and deliverance , thanking Him, - all take on a depth and vastness that is far beyond the Old Testament times !

And who knows how such love /prayers on behalf of those in our lives can bless them and us , by a Father of love that is beyond time … who loves to bless HIs children - having given us the Infinite merits in The Lord, through His Passion …as long as we trust in Him, which would include following with trust , His Bride , The Church , even if some in Her might seem like weeds that need more work of grace …which is not impossible for Him …

May He spare us from ignoring or hardening our hearts against Him …
and may The Mother , who ever magnifies Him, be our refuge , with the love and help of the holy saints !

God bless !

 

[StrawberryJam]

You can ask your Jewish friend why God allowed the temple to be destroyed in the 1st century or thereabouts, effectively abolishing the Jewish religion up to that point in time. The Jewish religion that was formulated thereafter is like protestantism, or Jewish lite.

Offensive, yet accepted by your kind without objection.

 

[meltzerboy]

You have given a huge list of points. It would take many threads to discuss each one. But I believe the flavor would be the same in all cases. So I will take this seemingly simple one as an example.

The interpretation of scripture given, that the Jews will know the Torah without study is clearly NOT what that scripture is saying and reveals a specific anti-Christian bias. What I mean is that if one ASSUMES that there is no new covenant that actually happened (Jesus), then you are forced to find an interpretation of this scripture without reference to the actual New Testament - you only have the old.

The scripture in question actually describes that the new covenant will be written on the hearts of the people. This is the love we have for Christ and the Father. This is real and has come to pass.

To say that this scripture means that the Jews will all memorize the Torah reveals a desire to stay connected with the old legalistic laws, written on stone tablets.

We have record of Jews of Jesus’ time having the same kind of objections. There is nothing new here that isn’t addressed within the Gospels and other New testament books. But it would of course take some time to point out the error of each one.

In each case you will find that the statement made is not in agreement with the Old or New Testament itself, and certainly not the correct interpretation of the old in light of the new. They represent strained interpretations that you have to make if you throw out the NT to start with.

Seriously, to say that Jeremiah 31:33 means that Jews will know the Torah without study is quite a stretch. It says nothing of the kind, and that kind of simple interpretation misses the entire point of what it actually says.

Jews (some, that is) believe that the Covenant will be “renewed” (not new) in the time of the Messiah so that Jews will have the commandments written on their heart. That does not mean, however, that the Torah need not be followed. Quite the opposite, in fact. Since the Law will be inscribed on the hearts of Jews (as well as Gentiles), it will be followed more diligently. In Judaism, action always speaks louder than words and, according to the Oral Law, “studying is not the ultimate, but the doing.”

 

[Frankenfurter]

Jews (some, that is) believe that the Covenant will be “renewed” (not new) in the time of the Messiah so that Jews will have the commandments written on their heart.

A reasonable interpretation. And a logical interpretation if one discards the actual New Testament a priori.

So we have a circular logical argument. If one discards the Jewish/Christian New Testament, and interprets the old with no reference to the new, then one finds that these interpretation can be used to ‘disprove’ the existence of the new.

I believe this is the problem with all the points listed.

 

[Angelabove13]

When it says “Jews will know the Torah without study,” I’m a little confused. Do they mean the ethnic Jews of Israel, or the people who identify themselves with the Jewish religion?