Jesus wasn't all-knowing as a human?

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Ben_Sinner said:
Ok.

Since Jesus is fully Divine and his divine character never mixes with his Human nature. He is fully Human and his human nature never mixes with his Human nature. Thus they are two people that make up one person. So when one character is ignorant, than the Person of Christ is also ignorant. And if one character is all-knowing, than the Person of Christ is all knowing.

Thus he would be ignorant and not ignorant at the same time…Doesn’t this violate the law of Non-Contradiction?..and at worse, it is claiming that there are times when God can be ignorant since he IS also this person?

How can I put my trust in someone that is all-knowing and ignorant at the same time?
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No.
  1. Jesus is one person - divine person. Not a human person. He has a human nature and a Divine nature.
  2. Jesus is not ignorant.
  3. No there is nothing here or anywhere that violates in realty the principle of non-contradiction.
  4. We have faith - and yes trust - in Jesus Christ is who is the Son of God who became man and suffered and died on the cross and who rose from the dead. He is the Lord.
It would not be correct to say he was “ignorant”.

He knew the Father…he knew he is the Son of God…he knew even the interior thoughts of others…he knew all he was sent to reveal…etc.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Ok.

Since Jesus is fully Divine and his divine character never mixes with his Human nature. He is fully Human and his human nature never mixes with his Human nature. Thus they are two people that make up one person. So when one character is ignorant, than the Person of Christ is also ignorant. And if one character is all-knowing, than the Person of Christ is all knowing.

Thus he would be ignorant and not ignorant at the same time…Doesn’t this violate the law of Non-Contradiction?..and at worse, it is claiming that there are times when God can be ignorant since he IS also this person?

How can I put my trust in someone that is all-knowing and ignorant at the same time?
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Hi, Ben!

…let’s see if I can simplify…

Toddlers, before they are perverted by adults and older children in their environment, do not hold racism as a badge of honor…

…they are fully human and fully accepting of all things human… depending upon the child he/she would readily engage any children within their immediate environment… much like dogs that focus on other canines as soon as they come into their presence (of course most canines have this “my space” thing which triggers an attack mode)…

…would you say that a child cannot be trusted because one day he/she will become racist?

No–a reasonable person would not jump into such conclusions, right?

Now Jesus, is God… but in order to accomplish the Salvific Plan He Became man… He emptied Himself of His Divinity–that means that He did not take hold of “I’m God” as He made Himself into the likeness of man.

Jesus, the Word Incarnate, was a man… He took on the human experience (conception, birth, growth); this means that His humanity was complete–with the exception of sin.

As a human person, Christ Jesus, experienced everything we experience… including learning from our parents and our environment.

There are some movies that depict the erroneous belief that Jesus, from infancy, operated in the supernatural (healings, bringing things to life, etc.). That’s wishful thinking. There’s also the belief that Christ wondered the world seeking knowledge in order to begin His Ministry–that’s just as erroneous.

Christ tells us that He is never alone–that the Father is (always) with Him.

Christ also tells us that the other Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, will come to the Church and bring her to the Fullness of Truth… and that He will Reveal all from what Jesus gives Him because all that the Father possesses (owns) Belongs to Him.

So where could Jesus go wrong?

If Yahweh God is willing to share His Divine Plan with mere men and He uses the Holy Spirit to bring forth His Revelations, why would you think that Jesus would fall into error?

…but if you want to know what His Disciples discovered about Jesus’ Knowledge check this out:
30 Now we can see that you know all things
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and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.” 31 “Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. (St. John 16:30-32)
…you have to relinquish your argument or continue to err against God’s Salvific Plan.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Ben_Sinner said:
This article by famous apologist, Jimmy Akin, is what really muddied the pot for me.

He is basically stating that The Church “doesn’t know yet” if Jesus saw the Beatific Vision at conception nor did he always know that he was God.

catholicworldreport.com/Item/4652/the_magisterium_and_the_human_knowledge_of_christ.aspx

Basically, how can we say that Jesus is the Way, the Life, and the Truth if even he didn’t know that when he was alive?
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Yeah Jesus knew it.

John 8
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself? 54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

Matthew 3
16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him.
17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 16

15 Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

John 4

25 The woman saith to him: I know that the Messias cometh (who is called Christ); therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith to her: I am he, who am speaking with thee.

John 14

The Way, the Truth, and the Life

5 Thomas saith to him: Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

7 If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him, and you have seen him.

8 Philip saith to him: Lord, shew us the Father, and it is enough for us. 9 Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? 10 Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. 11 Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? 12 Otherwise believe for the very works’ sake. Amen, amen I say to you, he that believeth in me, the works that I do, he also shall do; and greater than these shall he do. 13 Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.
 
I think that since Jesus was God, he was all-knowing on this earth, too. I also think there a few instances where he revealed hints to certain people. The Samaritan woman at the well comes to mind. Jesus remarked in their brief conversation that she had been married a few times and was then living with a man who wasn’t her husband. She didn’t tell him that, and I’m also guessing that he didn’t know her personally or otherwise, nor are there any hints that he could have picked up from her to guess that.

The incident in the Temple is also worth mentioning, too. I’ve always thought it kind of fun to imagine Him as a twelve-year-old boy asking things that a twelve-year-old wouldn’t know, and the various teachers in the Temple surprised at how much He knew. They must have thought He was an prodigy, kind of like Piaget or somebody like that. Did His knowledge that he displayed there come from God?
 
Each person who takes up speculating on this issue can say whatever he thinks. The reality is we don’t know when Jesus knew what. He didn’t reveal that to us and so the Church is silent on it.

This does not mean that Jesus wasn’t fully God from the instant of his conception. It merely means that he didn’t share all his inner life with us–which is his privilege and right. We know he was/is who he said he was/is because he rose from the dead. That’s really the only evidence that matters–at least St. Paul stated that it is.

Jesus is the Word made flesh, as St. John wrote. Exactly what all that means is a mystery–one we will not fully understand in this life–perhaps we never will understand it, but we will see him as he is and be like him. Surely, that’s all that matters.
 
In_Hoc_Signo312 said:
I think that since Jesus was God, he was all-knowing on this earth, too. I also think there a few instances where he revealed hints to certain people. The Samaritan woman at the well comes to mind. Jesus remarked in their brief conversation that she had been married a few times and was then living with a man who wasn’t her husband. She didn’t tell him that, and I’m also guessing that he didn’t know her personally or otherwise, nor are there any hints that he could have picked up from her to guess that.

The incident in the Temple is also worth mentioning, too. I’ve always thought it kind of fun to imagine Him as a twelve-year-old boy asking things that a twelve-year-old wouldn’t know, and the various teachers in the Temple surprised at how much He knew. They must have thought He was an prodigy, kind of like Piaget or somebody like that. Did His knowledge that he displayed there come from God?
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Hi!

…what is fantastic (beyond just wondrous) is that Jesus was engaging amongst others, teachers of the Law… and not only did Jesus hold His own but they were astounded by Him!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
Hi!

…what is fantastic (beyond just wondrous) is that Jesus was engaging amongst others, teachers of the Law… and not only did Jesus hold His own but they were astounded by Him!

Maran atha!

Angel
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And that’s because Moses originally received the Law from the voice of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1, 1

:heaven:
 
Aquinas says:

“When it is inquired whether Christ knows all things in the Word, “all things” may be taken in two ways: **First, properly, to stand for all that in any way whatsoever is, will be, or was done, said, or thought, by whomsoever and at any time. And in this way it must be said that the soul of Christ knows all things in the Word. **For every created intellect knows in the Word, not all simply, but so many more things the more perfectly it sees the Word. Yet no beatified intellect fails to know in the Word whatever pertains to itself. Now to Christ and to His dignity all things to some extent belong, inasmuch as all things are subject to Him. Moreover, He has been appointed Judge of all by God, “because He is the Son of Man,” as is said John 5:27; and therefore the soul of Christ knows in the Word all things existing in whatever time, and the thoughts of men, of which He is the Judge, so that what is said of Him (John 2:25), “For He knew what was in man,” can be understood not merely of the Divine knowledge, but also of His soul’s knowledge, which it had in the Word. Secondly, “all things” may be taken widely, as extending not merely to such things as are in act at some time, but even to such things as are in potentiality, and never have been nor ever will be reduced to act. Now some of these are in the Divine power alone, and not all of these does the soul of Christ know in the Word. For this would be to comprehend all that God could do, which would be to comprehend the Divine power, and, consequently, the Divine Essence. For every power is known from the knowledge of all it can do. Some, however, are not only in the power of God, but also in the power of the creature; and all of these the soul of Christ knows in the Word; for it comprehends in the Word the essence of every creature, and, consequently, its power and virtue, and all things that are in the power of the creature.”

newadvent.org/summa/4010.htm#article2
 
Good_Fella said:
And that’s because Moses originally received the Law from the voice of God.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1, 1

:heaven:
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Hi!

I fully concur!

…at age twelve He was very succinct: ‘I must tend to my Father’s Business.’

…now, take that to His Revelation that: ‘…as My Father Works so Do I.’

…it is the same Conversation… Jesus is Revealing both His Unity with the Father and His Divinity… yet, it is done in such a subtle way that only His Sheep and the enemy can spot it head-on!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
Hi!

I fully concur!

…at age twelve He was very succinct: ‘I must tend to my Father’s Business.’

…now, take that to His Revelation that: ‘…as My Father Works so Do I.’

…it is the same Conversation… Jesus is Revealing both His Unity with the Father and His Divinity… yet, it is done in such a subtle way that only His Sheep and the enemy can spot it head-on!

Maran atha!

Angel
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Who can better interpret the Law than the One who gave it? 🤷

:heaven:
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Ok.

Since Jesus is fully Divine and his divine character never mixes with his Human nature. He is fully Human and his human nature never mixes with his Human nature. Thus they are two people that make up one person. So when one character is ignorant, than the Person of Christ is also ignorant. And if one character is all-knowing, than the Person of Christ is all knowing.

Thus he would be ignorant and not ignorant at the same time…Doesn’t this violate the law of Non-Contradiction?..and at worse, it is claiming that there are times when God can be ignorant since he IS also this person?

How can I put my trust in someone that is all-knowing and ignorant at the same time?
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Here is what prompted this question from me. I don’t know how authoritative this sentiment is, nor do I think this guy is even Catholic, but here is what he had to say. Is this a misconception?

desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man

Here comes the most fascinating part: Since the two natures are united in one Person, the fact that Christ’s human nature didn’t know when he would return means that the Person of Christ did not know when he would return. Thus, Jesus the Person could truly say, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24:36). At the same time, by virtue of his divine nature, we can also say that the Person of Christ did know when he would return.

He is saying that the Person of Jesus didn’t know something. Not just one part of him.
 
fbl9 said:
When Jesus walked this earth He was not just merely a man but both God and man. There is no separating.
Thee are several places in the gospels that speak of Jesus having knowledge that an ordinary man would not have.
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If Yeshua was all knowing then he would have known the story of Moses didn’t happen. If we are to truly believe that how do we overcome this hurdle?
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Here is what prompted this question from me. I don’t know how authoritative this sentiment is, nor do I think this guy is even Catholic, but here is what he had to say. Is this a misconception?

Here comes the most fascinating part: Since the two natures are united in one Person, the fact that Christ’s human nature didn’t know when he would return means that the Person of Christ did not know when he would return. Thus, Jesus the Person could truly say, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24:36). At the same time, by virtue of his divine nature, we can also say that the Person of Christ did know when he would return.

He is saying that the Person of Jesus didn’t know something. Not just one part of him.
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Yes it is a huge misconception and error.

To quote our President: Huge.

One Person. Two natures.

See the Catechism.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Here is what prompted this question from me. I don’t know how authoritative this sentiment is, nor do I think this guy is even Catholic, but here is what he had to say. Is this a misconception?

desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man

Here comes the most fascinating part: Since the two natures are united in one Person, the fact that Christ’s human nature didn’t know when he would return means that the Person of Christ did not know when he would return. Thus, Jesus the Person could truly say, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24:36). At the same time, by virtue of his divine nature, we can also say that the Person of Christ did know when he would return.

He is saying that the Person of Jesus didn’t know something. Not just one part of him.
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Hi, Ben!

…rather what this means is that Jesus, the man, was not to Reveal anything beyond that which was necessary to be Revealed by the Lamb of God.

…however, any stipulation as to when Jesus Knew Who He Is and what Knowledge He Possessed and when would not demonstrate that He was ignorant or had no Divine Authority.

…it would be as if one would say that once salt is removed from ocean/sea water it is no longer water.

Jesus, emptying Himself of His Divinity did not mean that He ceased Being God–the only thing that happened was that He did not rely on His Divinity as He sought to became as man, in everything but sin.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
NM505StKate said:
If Yeshua was all knowing then he would have known the story of Moses didn’t happen. If we are to truly believe that how do we overcome this hurdle?
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Hi!

…I think it was asked before, but if I may be redundant… ? or is it: ?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Here is what prompted this question from me. I don’t know how authoritative this sentiment is, nor do I think this guy is even Catholic, but here is what he had to say. Is this a misconception?

desiringgod.org/articles/how-can-jesus-be-god-and-man

Here comes the most fascinating part: Since the two natures are united in one Person, the fact that Christ’s human nature didn’t know when he would return means that the Person of Christ did not know when he would return. Thus, Jesus the Person could truly say, “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24:36).** At the same time, by virtue of his divine nature, we can also say that the Person of Christ did know when he would return./**I]

He is saying that the Person of Jesus didn’t know something. Not just one part of him.

He is also saying that the person of Jesus in his divine nature did know when he would return. Thus the person of Jesus did know something, not just one part of him. What follows is that the person of Jesus did and did not know when he would return, which doesn’t make sense. The truth is Jesus used a mental reservation when he said the Son did not know the day and the hour of his return. He did in fact know all actual things in the past, present, and future. The only knowledge he acquired was that through human experience.

:heaven:
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jcrichton said:
Jesus, emptying Himself of His Divinity did not mean that He ceased Being God–the only thing that happened was that He did not rely on His Divinity as He sought to became as man, in everything but sin.
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I’m surprised modernists don’t present the same argument with respect to whether Jesus sinned. Of course, they don’t because the Scriptures are explicitly clear on that point. But according to their reasoning, the person of Jesus must have sinned in his human nature, and not just that part of him. To be logically consistent in their argument, albeit the Scriptures, they would have to concede that the person of Jesus did sin, but only by his human nature. Jesus did not sin because his human nature was divinized in the hypostatic union. The same can be said with respect to the knowledge he possessed. In the words of St. Paul: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,” (Col 2:9).

:juggle:
 
I do not think there is anything wrong with realizing that Jesus did not “Know” everything. Jesus knew he did not know everything. “But of that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

To be ignorant is not necessarily to be sinful. I think there is a false equivalency here that “all knowing” is an essential quality of being “all good”.
 
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