Jesus wasn't all-knowing as a human?

[abucs]

I have usually thought that Jesus was limited in his human form. So for example he couldn’t see over the next mountain due to his physical location.

So with being all-knowing I have tended to think in terms of Jesus’ brain being limited to the number of brain cells and synapses etc.

Having read a little lately about scientific claims the human brain works as a hologram I am not so sure now.

archive.org/stream/HolographicModelOfTheUniverse/holouni_djvu.txt

 

[Good_Fella]

I have usually thought that Jesus was limited in his human form. So for example he couldn’t see over the next mountain due to his physical location.

So with being all-knowing I have tended to think in terms of Jesus’ brain being limited to the number of brain cells and synapses etc.

Seeing what’s over the next mountain is a matter of perception, not cognition, unless he were asked what there was over the next mountain. Since Jesus had a divine mind united with his human mind, he would have been able to mentally envision what’s over the next mountain, if he were asked what was there. Of course, our Lord’s human mind had its limitations.

45Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
46And Nathanael said to him,“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
48Nathanael said to Him, “**How do You know me?” ***
Jesus answered and said to him, “**Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” **
49Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are jthe King of Israel!”
50Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
51And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
John 1

:heaven:

 

[abucs]

Yes I think that is a fair point. I was actually thinking of the Nathanael text as I wrote the last post.

I was thinking that the human eye would limit Jesus’ ability to see through the mountain which would be a matter of perception as you say. Then I thought about the Nathanael text and thought about God’s ‘bird’s eye view’ or being able to see all creation for all time at a glance which could be cognition if you hold that God creates the whole of Creation in his mind / thoughts /Word.

I think a lot about fundamental reality and how God relates to it but of course I don’t know exactly how it works out. So point taken.

 

[jcrichton]

I have usually thought that Jesus was limited in his human form. So for example he couldn’t see over the next mountain due to his physical location.

So with being all-knowing I have tended to think in terms of Jesus’ brain being limited to the number of brain cells and synapses etc.

Having read a little lately about scientific claims the human brain works as a hologram I am not so sure now.

archive.org/stream/HolographicModelOfTheUniverse/holouni_djvu.txt

Hi!

…I think that where people go wrong is when we try to understand God through our limitations… I recall some decade ago there was all this big talk from “the experts” about life sustaining system (ocean depth has no light so life there; high cold altitudes no life there; hyper hot springs, yep no life!; and the erroneous claims go on)… as tech advanced and as storms and other discoveries were made we found out that there are creatures in the depth of the oceans that not only create their own light but even flourish; that hyper climates do contain life forms that were not known nor expected by science… that the universe is not folding upon itself but still expanding…

…we should not focus on what Jesus was able to Know but on what the Incarnate Word’s Mission was… did Jesus come to Reveal everything?

No!

He even states this very thing when He tells the Disciples that there are many more things that He must Reveal to them but that they are not yet ready (able to accept) to know them–that He will Send another Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, Who will Bring the Church to the Fullness of Truth!

…so, as the Son of man, Jesus did not Come to Reveal the sequence of events for Judgment Day.

Conversely, take note of the following passage:

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

(St. Matthew 11:27)
This passage seems to state that the Father has no power over whom gets to Know Him–that it is the Son Who Fully Controls the Revelation of God.

…another similar passage is as follows:

12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.

(Apocalypse 19:12)

…a further one states:

17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

(Apocalypse 2:17)
…the first passage seems to intimated that Only Jesus Knows the Name Written on Him–with the inclusion of the Father; while the latter seems to convey that not even Jesus Knows the name Written on the white stone–God is deemed oblivious to this particular Knowledge.

…if we pay attention to Scriptures we can defuse such interpretations/understanding before they form a conscious/collective thought:

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 **All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known **

to you.” (St. John 16:12-15)
Clearly, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the One Omniscient and All-Powerful True God–there’s no division of Abilities in God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Seeing what’s over the next mountain is a matter of perception, not cognition, unless he were asked what there was over the next mountain. Since Jesus had a divine mind united with his human mind, he would have been able to mentally envision what’s over the next mountain, if he were asked what was there. Of course, our Lord’s human mind had its limitations.

45Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
46And Nathanael said to him,“Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
Philip said to him, “Come and see.”
47Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”
48Nathanael said to Him, “**How do You know me?” ***
Jesus answered and said to him, “**Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” **
49Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are jthe King of Israel!”
50Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
51And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”
John 1

:heaven:

Hi!

…did you catch the Revelations within the text?

…Jehovah Witnesses continue to preach against Christ’s Divinity… the Holy Spirit Reveals to Nathanael that Jesus is: a) the Son of God (which makes Jesus Divine), and b) King of Israel… Israel King is Yahweh God–yeah, even and in spite of Israel demanding a human to lead them as their head!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi!

…did you catch the Revelations within the text?

…Jehovah Witnesses continue to preach against Christ’s Divinity… the Holy Spirit Reveals to Nathanael that Jesus is: a) the Son of God (which makes Jesus Divine), and b) King of Israel… Israel King is Yahweh God–yeah, even and in spite of Israel demanding a human to lead them as their head!

Maran atha!

Angel

Still, we have to question whether Nathaniel actually meant that, because as a Jew, he wasn’t expecting the Messiah to be of Divine origin. Nor does Jesus say to him, as he did to Peter, “Flesh and blood hasn’t revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.” So, some biblical scholars believe that Nathaniel must have thought nothing more than that God was with Jesus, the Messiah, and empowered him to do super-human things. I’m inclined to agree with them. The Messiah is still expected to be a man much greater than even Moses, who performed miracles by the power of God. The JWs might see it this way. We read in their Bible: Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7). However, since earliest time, the Church has taken this verse to be a messianic prophecy whose secondary fulfillment is reached in Christ, the divine Son of God. The JWs have divorced Scripture from Tradition and have no fundamental ties with historical Christianity.

:heaven:

 

[jcrichton]

Still, we have to question whether Nathaniel actually meant that, because as a Jew, he wasn’t expecting the Messiah to be of Divine origin. Nor does Jesus say to him, as he did to Peter, “Flesh and blood hasn’t revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.” So, some biblical scholars believe that Nathaniel must have thought nothing more than that God was with Jesus, the Messiah, and empowered him to do super-human things. I’m inclined to agree with them. The Messiah is still expected to be a man much greater than even Moses, who performed miracles by the power of God. The JWs might see it this way. We read in their Bible: Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee" (Psalm 2:7). However, since earliest time, the Church has taken this verse to be a messianic prophecy whose secondary fulfillment is reached in Christ, the divine Son of God. The JWs have divorced Scripture from Tradition and have no fundamental ties with historical Christianity.

:heaven:

Hi!

I respect your understanding of this passage; though, I equate it to St. Thomas’ experience… “my Lord, and my God” could not have been a common place remark that Jews would use as an exclamation… to me, Nathaniel’s exclamation comes from the revelation that no one was present during his experience… Jesus is Revealing to him (as with the Samaritan woman at the well) things known only to him… so he goes from a skeptic to a Believer in a whiplash!

…the JWs are a species onto themselves… they not only divorce Christianity from history, they divorce it from Scriptures and from Christ Himself!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Good_Fella]

Hi!

I respect your understanding of this passage; though, I equate it to St. Thomas’ experience… “my Lord, and my God” could not have been a common place remark that Jews would use as an exclamation… to me, Nathaniel’s exclamation comes from the revelation that no one was present during his experience… Jesus is Revealing to him (as with the Samaritan woman at the well) things known only to him… so he goes from a skeptic to a Believer in a whiplash!

Hi! :tiphat:

Thomas was an apostle who could recall what had been revealed to Peter. The footnote below is from the NABRE.

1:49 Son of God: this title is used in the Old Testament, among other ways, as a title of adoption for the Davidic king (2*Sm 7:14; Ps 2:7; 89:27), and thus here, with King of Israel, in a messianic sense. For the evangelist, Son of God also points to Jesus’ divinity (cf. Jn 20:28).

*I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. If he does wrong, I will reprove him with a human rod and with human punishments;

I will proclaim the decree of the Lord,
he said to me, “You are my son;
today I have begotten you.

He shall cry to me, ‘You are my father,
my God, the Rock of my salvation!’*
I myself make him the firstborn,
Most High over the kings of the earth.
heaven*:

The S in son isn’t capitalized as it is in the Gospel of John, because the Evangelist has Jesus’ divinity in mind, not so much Nathaniel. Though I see no reason why, who can say with certainty that Nathaniel didn’t receive a direct revelation from God as Peter did. One thing is certain, Jesus did not repress his divine power.

:heaven:

 

[jcrichton]

Hi! :tiphat:

Thomas was an apostle who could recall what had been revealed to Peter. The footnote below is from the NABRE.

1:49 Son of God: this title is used in the Old Testament, among other ways, as a title of adoption for the Davidic king (2*Sm 7:14; Ps 2:7; 89:27), and thus here, with King of Israel, in a messianic sense. For the evangelist, Son of God also points to Jesus’ divinity (cf. Jn 20:28).

*I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. If he does wrong, I will reprove him with a human rod and with human punishments;

I will proclaim the decree of the Lord,
he said to me, “You are my son;
today I have begotten you.

He shall cry to me, ‘You are my father,
my God, the Rock of my salvation!’*
I myself make him the firstborn,
Most High over the kings of the earth.
heaven*:

The S in son isn’t capitalized as it is in the Gospel of John, because the Evangelist has Jesus’ divinity in mind, not so much Nathaniel. Though I see no reason why, who can say with certainty that Nathaniel didn’t receive a direct revelation from God as Peter did. One thing is certain, Jesus did not repress his divine power.

:heaven:

Hi!

…I fully concur with your final statement… not only did Jesus not repress but He, in my estimation, upped the anti in verses 50 and 51.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Richca]

One of the things that kept my faith afloat in moments of doubt was the fact that it has been taught that Jesus was all-knowing. This is what separates him from the other religious leaders in history.

Recently I realized that only the Divine version of Jesus was all-knowing. The Human version of Jesus was not.

This human soul that the Son of God assumed is endowed with a true human knowledge. As such, this knowledge could not in itself be unlimited: it was exercised in the historical conditions of his existence in space and time. This is why the Son of God could, when he became man, “increase in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and man”, and would even have to inquire for himself about what one in the human condition can learn only from experience. This corresponded to the reality of his voluntary emptying of himself, taking “the form of a slave”.(CCC 471–474)

Since all of Scripture accounts of Jesus are in his fallible human form, doesn’t this just make him “another guy” who can’t fully be trusted since his intellect is limited? What separates him from the likes of a Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, etc.? These were all very wise human beings that weren’t all knowing.

Why should we trust Jesus’s word over those guys? People say, the Resurrection, but this only proves that he conquered death. Not that he was all powerful and all-knowing.

Jesus Christ is not only a true man having a true human nature but true God as well at the same time. “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” That is, the second person of the Trinity, the omniscient and eternal Son of God, became incarnated in the womb of the Virgin Mary as a man, in the likeness of sinful flesh. Jesus Christ is not a human person, he is a divine person in human flesh. In Jesus Christ there are two natures, divine and human, but only one person and this person is the eternal Son of God, one of the Trinity. Accordingly, as Christ is one divine person in two natures, he has two kinds of knowledge, namely, an omniscient and infinite divine knowledge which is natural to him as the second person of the Trinity, the other a created and finite human knowledge which is natural to his created human nature. Sometimes the scriptures or Jesus himself speaks according to his human nature as when it is said that Jesus advanced in wisdom, age, and grace before God and man. Sometimes Jesus spoke according to his divinity and Godhead as when he said ‘before Abraham was, I am,’ or when he forgave people’s sins for who can forgive sins but God?, or as God he performed the many miracles he did. The words of Jesus are the word of God for the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

‘Since all of Scripture accounts of Jesus are in his fallible human form.’ Correction: Jesus is God in human flesh, Jesus is a divine person, therefore, the scripture accounts of Jesus are of the eternal and infinite Son of God in human form. Yes, the human knowledge of Christ according to his human nature is finite but not fallible due to the human nature being assumed by the second person of the Trinity.