Jesus without the Bible?

[mercygate]

Are we just to accept all teachings from our church leaders as truth blindly, believing that they are still within God’s will just as the Jews did prior to Jesus’s coming? The only answer I know of is the Holy Scriptures. To study over, pray over, and be led by God’s Written Word. And God will reveal truth and discernment to all who gives themselves totally to him (John 7:17)

Accepting anything “blindly” would be to deny the gifts we have been given. It would insult the Church and it would insult Scripture. Even Our Lady questioned the Angel: “How can this be?”

That said, we Catholics do understand that Scripture on its own, outside the context of the Church that wrote it, and for which it was written by the inspired authors, is a dull sword – and a dull sword is clumsy and far more dangerous than one that is well sharpened.

 

[mo3]

I would trust in what Jesus said.

But nonetheless, I do believe Jesus when he says we will be able to discern the truth from false if within His will.

Yes, we both agree on this which is nice. However, how do we know for sure what Jesus is saying? He warns us of learning on our own:

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”— 2 Pet. 1-20 The word “Prophecy” is defined as “Public interpretation of Scripture; Preaching 2) To explain or teach on Religious subjects; Preach” (The Reader’s Digest Encyclopedic Dictionary (C) 1965)

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” — 2 Pet. 3-16

" For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?"— Rom. 10:13-14

I would just say that Jesus is not only with his church as a collective, but he is also always with each individual Christian along with the Holy Spirit. Putting each of us in constant communion with God. The passages about testing is not just for church leadership, but also for each Christian.

This is true.

And say continue to seek and trust not in “Human Beings”, but in God for discernment.

This is true. I trust in Jesus for which I believe you do too. However, haven’t you learned from your parents, friends, bible studies, Pastor or others` about Jesus? Haven’t you trusted “Human Beings” to translate your Bible? Nobody lives and learns in a vacuum. Most of us can’t translate Hebrew or Greek languages of 2000 years ago. This is why Jesus promised us more than the Written word. God bless.

 

[mo3]

I’m a recent entrant into the Catholic Church, so I don’t claim to be an expert on these issues, but here is what I understand from much study over the past two years:

WOW, for a recent entrant you sure learn fast. You should teach RCIA! God bless.

 

[frnate]

I am going to be silly here, just trying to illustrate my question. Let’s suppose hypothetically, you church leader says we should pray to the President of the United States. America being founded under Christian principles and guided under the grace and mercy of God, and the president being appointed by God to rule this country, all Christian should pray to him. Paul states that all govern authorities are appointed by God (Romans 13:1).

Let me reemphasize that no mockery is intended. I know this is silly and your church leadership would never do this, but it helps bring out my question. If your church leadership stated this, would you obey this blindly, or would you hold this teaching up against something to test it’s validity?

I will answer this question to show I am not trying to make anyone out to be silly. I would validate against scripture, that states who I should be praying to. Seeing this is against Scripture, I would determine this teaching false. Being that this is the church leadership making this statement, I would leave that church.

Nathon, how would you react to this? Again, I am not asking this to debate the issue, this is pure education and curiosity on my part.

No mockery inferred
Please be assured that my attitude is the same as your’s. I always welcome an honest inquiry and all responses are ALWAYS meant in the kindest way possible. In other words, if my response can be interpreted both negatively and positively…I was using the positive one.

Gosh, the answer to your hypothetical could be VERY long and involved but I will attempt to be as succinct as possible.

Assuming you use the word “pray” as generally connotated by Protestantism then the short answer is that I would obviusly flee from this blasphemy and not look back lest I be turned into a pillar of salt.

But…(the long answer…sort of)
At the risk of seeming to parse words, we must first be sure that we agree on the meaning of our terminology. In the case you present, most of the disagreement would likely stem from the mis-conception many people have about the term “Pray.”

The Free Online Dictionary defines “pray” thus:
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
*v.*intr.
**1. ** To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
**2. ** To make a fervent request or entreaty.
*v.**tr.***1. ** To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
**2. ** To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
**3. ** To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
**4. ** To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

thefreedictionary.com/pray

So,
If you mean “Pray to” as defined first, and to the exclusion of the other four definitions, (I think the second ‘number one’ is a bit too ambiguous for our purposes) i.e. “worship that is only due the Lord,” then yes all but the most ignorant would, and should, surely stampede out of that Church.

As a Baptist this is the meaning I imbued to the act of prayer, and is the meaning which is generally inferred by many Protestants but which does not stand up to scrutiny.

Because,
The word “pray” most certainly encompasses both worshipful and non-worshipful communication. Those who are incapable of determining the difference are obliged to abstain from prayer, except to the Lord, until they gain more understanding.

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[frnate]

As a reply to 1. "The RCC cannot be the “One and Only True Church”
We believe that all Catholic Churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome (Pope) are part of the One and Only True Church. The Catholic Church - latin rite is one of those. There is no Roman Catholic Church. or RCC. Just Catholic Church or CC. There are 22 rites (I think) that make up the Catholic Church.

Pleae see this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1614447#post1614447
and particularly my post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1614447&postcount=19

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[simbagizmo]

Yes, we both agree on this which is nice. However, how do we know for sure what Jesus is saying?

By believing in Jesus, asking for discernment, and truely seeking for the wisdom, God will reveal the truth to us. This does not mean that I do not find help in other Christians writings, but I pray for the truth to be revealed and do not doubt that God will reveal it.

Mar 11:23 "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him.
Mar 11:24 "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.

He warns us of learning on our own:

“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.”— 2 Pet. 1-20 The word “Prophecy” is defined as “Public interpretation of Scripture; Preaching 2) To explain or teach on Religious subjects; Preach” (The Reader’s Digest Encyclopedic Dictionary (C) 1965)

Prophecy used in this context mean “prediction”

prophēteia
prof-ay-ti’-ah
From G4396 (“prophecy”); prediction (scriptural or other): - prophecy, prophesying.

And this is talking about the prediction in Scripture were not made up by men, but from God.

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” — 2 Pet. 3-16

If we read scripture, with a bias, then this is definitely true. But if we read Scripture, believing, praying, and seeking wisdom as stated in Proverbs, then the truth will be revealed.

" For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved. How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?"— Rom. 10:13-14

Not quite sure where you are going with this except the last phrase, where Paul asks “how will they hear without a preacher”. Paul does answer his own question as is his style a few verses down.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD.”

Hearing the word of Christ means just that. The word of Christ is heard when reading Scripture, Christian writings, listening to sermons, and by viewing Creation itself. The question is, are you seeking it?

This is true. I trust in Jesus for which I believe you do too. However, haven’t you learned from your parents, friends, bible studies, Pastor or others` about Jesus?

Yes, I have learned great insight from other Christians. But I have also heard some corrupt messages. This is why the Bible must be the baseline and test of any tradition.

Haven’t you trusted “Human Beings” to translate your Bible?

I listen to men on teachings, but trust in Jesus to give me discernment of what teachings I hear.

Nobody lives and learns in a vacuum. Most of us can’t translate Hebrew or Greek languages of 2000 years ago. This is why Jesus promised us more than the Written word. God bless.

Jesus states to trust in Him and you will know the truth.

Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
Joh 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

 

[simbagizmo]

Accepting anything “blindly” would be to deny the gifts we have been given. It would insult the Church and it would insult Scripture. Even Our Lady questioned the Angel: “How can this be?”

I am assuming you are saying that you do not accept the teachings from your church without being skeptical. So when your chuch leader states some teaching, what do you use to validate his teaching?

Mary’s question is not the same thing I am talking about. She did not understand how she was going to have a baby when still a virgin. I am talking about doctrinal truth.

That said, we Catholics do understand that Scripture on its own, outside the context of the Church that wrote it, and for which it was written by the inspired authors, is a dull sword – and a dull sword is clumsy and far more dangerous than one that is well sharpened.

Scriptures, though physically written by Jewish Christians, is authored by God. These are His Words, owned by Him, written for Christians and non-Christians alike, and never dull.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[simbagizmo]

No mockery inferred
Please be assured that my attitude is the same as your’s. I always welcome an honest inquiry and all responses are ALWAYS meant in the kindest way possible. In other words, if my response can be interpreted both negatively and positively…I was using the positive one.

Gosh, the answer to your hypothetical could be VERY long and involved but I will attempt to be as succinct as possible.

Assuming you use the word “pray” as generally connotated by Protestantism then the short answer is that I would obviusly flee from this blasphemy and not look back lest I be turned into a pillar of salt.

But…(the long answer…sort of)
At the risk of seeming to parse words, we must first be sure that we agree on the meaning of our terminology. In the case you present, most of the disagreement would likely stem from the mis-conception many people have about the term “Pray.”

The Free Online Dictionary defines “pray” thus:
v. prayed, pray·ing, prays
*v.*intr.
**1. ** To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
**2. ** To make a fervent request or entreaty.
*v.**tr.***1. ** To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
**2. ** To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
**3. ** To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
**4. ** To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.

thefreedictionary.com/pray

So,
If you mean “Pray to” as defined first, and to the exclusion of the other four definitions, (I think the second ‘number one’ is a bit too ambiguous for our purposes) i.e. “worship that is only due the Lord,” then yes all but the most ignorant would, and should, surely stampede out of that Church.

As a Baptist this is the meaning I imbued to the act of prayer, and is the meaning which is generally inferred by many Protestants but which does not stand up to scrutiny.

Because,
The word “pray” most certainly encompasses both worshipful and non-worshipful communication. Those who are incapable of determining the difference are obliged to abstain from prayer, except to the Lord, until they gain more understanding.

Peace,
+Nathan

I did mean pray as used in Scripture. So you answered my question. Thanks

 

[mo3]

By believing in Jesus, asking for discernment, and truely seeking for the wisdom, God will reveal the truth to us. This does not mean that I do not find help in other Christians writings, but I pray for the truth to be revealed and do not doubt that God will reveal it.

If we read scripture, with a bias, then this is definitely true. But if we read Scripture, believing, praying, and seeking wisdom as stated in Proverbs, then the truth will be revealed.

Hearing the word of Christ means just that. The word of Christ is heard when reading Scripture, Christian writings, listening to sermons, and by viewing Creation itself. The question is, are you seeking it?

Yes, I have learned great insight from other Christians. But I have also heard some corrupt messages. This is why the Bible must be the baseline and test of any tradition.

I listen to men on teachings, but trust in Jesus to give me discernment of what teachings I hear.

Jesus states to trust in Him and you will know the truth.

These are all wonderful. I don’t think you are claiming to have personal apparitions with Jesus but that your beliefs are a result of your prayers, listening, reading scripture, and trusting. I truly believe you have done these things.

I have prayed, listened, and trusted in Jesus for many years. I can honestly tell you that as a result of this, I believe totally in Jesus Christ and that I know what he is truly saying by what is taught by the Catholic Church.

How can we both be listening to the word of Jesus and come to different conclusions?

 

[rtconstant]

Simbagizmo, while you are making reasonable and well thought out arguments, and I can understand your position. I think it should still be pointed out that neither history nor the Bible really backs up the concept that the Scripture is final arbiter.

While it is true that Bible is and claims to be “profitable” for instruction it never claims to be final or sufficient. Also, within its pages the scriptures always required someone to explain and clarify them. Just as the Ethiopian needed the assistance of the apostle we today also need to be given the framework for understanding what we read. As we’re told in Scripture “How can we understand without a preacher”?

Also I noticed that at least one of your verse references was speaking of the “word of God” this is not in reference too scripture. There is only one word of God and that is Jesus. I’ve noticed that sometimes Protestants seem to equate sacred scripture and Jesus they do so piously but this is something that can border on idolatry. As any object can when it is attributed with a divine nature.

I’m not saying you view it this way but I’ve seen many Protestants who make this assumption and it is a dangerous one. While we can all agree that we should give scripture the honor and respect that it is due. We should never view it as equal too Our Lord.

 

[simbagizmo]

Simbagizmo, while you are making reasonable and well thought out arguments, and I can understand your position. I think it should still be pointed out that neither history nor the Bible really backs up the concept that the Scripture is final arbiter.

While it is true that Bible is and claims to be “profitable” for instruction it never claims to be final or sufficient. Also, within its pages the scriptures always required someone to explain and clarify them. Just as the Ethiopian needed the assistance of the apostle we today also need to be given the framework for understanding what we read. As we’re told in Scripture “How can we understand without a preacher”?

Also I noticed that at least one of your verse references was speaking of the “word of God” this is not in reference too scripture. There is only one word of God and that is Jesus. I’ve noticed that sometimes Protestants seem to equate sacred scripture and Jesus they do so piously but this is something that can border on idolatry. As any object can when it is attributed with a divine nature.

I’m not saying you view it this way but I’ve seen many Protestants who make this assumption and it is a dangerous one. While we can all agree that we should give scripture the honor and respect that it is due. We should never view it as equal too Our Lord.

“There is only one word of God and that is Jesus”. Thanks for that. John 1:1, Revelations 19:13. But I believe that the Scriptures contain the Word of God. The Truth and Jesus can be found within the Holy Scriptures if pursued.

This leads to my second remark. I would also say the Paul in 2 Timothy 3:15 is in fact stating that Scripture is sufficient.

2Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise, unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[simbagizmo]

These are all wonderful. I don’t think you are claiming to have personal apparitions with Jesus but that your beliefs are a result of your prayers, listening, reading scripture, and trusting. I truly believe you have done these things.

I have prayed, listened, and trusted in Jesus for many years. I can honestly tell you that as a result of this, I believe totally in Jesus Christ and that I know what he is truly saying by what is taught by the Catholic Church.

How can we both be listening to the word of Jesus and come to different conclusions?

I do not know why we differ, but I do know one thing. If you put you faith in Jesus Christ, I know we will see each other one day and rejoice together. My belief is that the Holy Scriptures contains the Word of God and Truth, and my faith is in Jesus to grant me wisdom to discern the Truth. Through the Scriptures, Jesus pleads with us to study His Word, test ourselves against it, and to test those who profess to teach it.

 

[mercygate]

I do not know why we differ, but I do know one thing. If you put you faith in Jesus Christ, I know we will see each other one day and rejoice together. My belief is that the Holy Scriptures contains the Word of God and Truth, and my faith is in Jesus to grant me wisdom to discern the Truth. Through the Scriptures, Jesus pleads with us to study His Word, test ourselves against it, and to test those who profess to teach it.

Truly, we are not far apart on this.

The Catholic view cannot exclude the means of grace, in addition to Scripture, which he has promised us. Jesus promised to give us his Church, and to the Eleven he promised to send the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (Jn 16).

A famous Protestant apologist is fond of saying, “There are no lone ranger Christians.” He means that we must be in community with fellow believers. Using the very method you counsel, Sim – study of Scripture – Catholics believe that the Church must be centered in that Body which can trace its spiritual charism its doctrinal development and its physical history straight back in an unbroken line to the Upper Room.

 

[mo3]

I do not know why we differ, but I do know one thing. If you put you faith in Jesus Christ, I know we will see each other one day and rejoice together. My belief is that the Holy Scriptures contains the Word of God and Truth, and my faith is in Jesus to grant me wisdom to discern the Truth. Through the Scriptures, Jesus pleads with us to study His Word, test ourselves against it, and to test those who profess to teach it.

Truly, we are not far apart on this.

The Catholic view cannot exclude the means of grace, in addition to Scripture, which he has promised us. Jesus promised to give us his Church, and to the Eleven he promised to send the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (Jn 16).

I agree we are not far apart. I don’t believe we are to know all the answers.

Thank you simba & mercygate. I see your love of Jesus Christ. My prayers are with you.

 

[rtconstant]

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.

Well, to me these verses simply state Bible when understood through Faith in Jesus can be an excellent guide, for instruction, piety and morals. These things then can guide you down the path of Salvation. I don’t think any Christian would disagree with that.

I just don’t see where that they suggest it is the only source. Also I would note that this chapter also speaks to their instruction which is in addition too the scriptures which is pretty much what we’re talking about.

 

[mercygate]

I agree we are not far apart.** I don’t believe we are to know all the answers.**

Thank you simba & mercygate. I see your love of Jesus Christ. My prayers are with you.

Of course we will not know all the answers. But we can be sure (because Jesus promised it) that we will know the answers we need to know. Largely, when it comes to the big stuff. The answer is staring you smack in the face. All you have to do is accept it. That’s where a lot of people get stuck.

 

[simbagizmo]

Well, to me these verses simply state Bible when understood through Faith in Jesus can be an excellent guide, for instruction, piety and morals. These things then can guide you down the path of Salvation. I don’t think any Christian would disagree with that.

I just don’t see where that they suggest it is the only source. Also I would note that this chapter also speaks to their instruction which is in addition too the scriptures which is pretty much what we’re talking about.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The bolded statement is saying that knowing Scriptures will make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus. Paul does not say knowing Scriptures plus other things. Just to be clear that you understand, I am not saying that biblical teachings outside the Bible are useless or bad, because they are not. All that I am saying is that the Scriptures, authored by God, are sufficient.

Another interesting thing here, is that when Paul states Scriptures is sufficient for wisdom for salvation, he is only talking about the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. Since the New Testament has yet to be set apart by God.

I do know that at other times Paul states to remember the traditions taught, both written and oral. This does not contradict that. Biblical teachings from teachers are helpful for understanding the Scriptures, but Scriptures are sufficient.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

 

[simbagizmo]

Truly, we are not far apart on this.

The Catholic view cannot exclude the means of grace, in addition to Scripture, which he has promised us. Jesus promised to give us his Church, and to the Eleven he promised to send the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth” (Jn 16).

A famous Protestant apologist is fond of saying, “There are no lone ranger Christians.” He means that we must be in community with fellow believers. Using the very method you counsel, Sim – study of Scripture – Catholics believe that the Church must be centered in that Body which can trace its spiritual charism its doctrinal development and its physical history straight back in an unbroken line to the Upper Room.

But one way that we do part ways, based on your statement above, is that I believe that Christ’s Church is all Christians. Not so much a religious denomination. Christ’s Church is made up of believing Jews, Catholics, Protestants, and others that believe as God’s says. That the Church is the Body, and that Jesus is the center of the Body. And each member of the Body, you and me, has an unbroken line between himself/herself to Jesus. And that Jesus formed His Church to give encouragement, growth, and to discipline its members in love when needed to thier salvataion.

Rev 3:20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

But I do appreciate the charity you have shown me in our conversations, and insights you provide.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Since our old testament is the Scripture they were talking about, ***we ***can forget completely about Christianity, it did not exist in the OT. We may as well become sort of pseudo-jewish and continue to wait for the messiah as that would be sufficient.
Instead we have to obey this pesky Church that The Messiah built which cannot be destroyed because the very lips of God said - nothing would ever prevail against it.
Which begs the question why christians only appeared on earth one thousand five hundred, (1,500 years), after Christ built His Church and made His promise to It.
And if Gods promise were actually true, and there were christians on earth for the previous 1,500 years, then they in fact are the actual Church Christ said that He would build. And it is to Them that He gave His promise of the Holy Spirit as a guide to all Truth and to them His own promise that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against It.
It is to the Church Christ founded 2000 yrs ago that He gave His personal promise that It would last 'til the end of time.
Which also means that all the Sacraments are administered by that Church for the last 2000 years under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the protection of Christ until ‘the end of Time’.

 

[mo3]

The bolded statement is saying that knowing Scriptures will make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus. Paul does not say knowing Scriptures plus other things. Just to be clear that you understand, I am not saying that biblical teachings outside the Bible are useless or bad, because they are not. All that I am saying is that the Scriptures, authored by God, are sufficient.

It is also not saying it is the “Only” thing either. It is also saying “through faith” which one must learn the definition of faith through the teachings of Jesus, not the English dictionary.

TB] All that I am saying is that the Scriptures, authored by God, are sufficient.

What does Scripture say about Scripture being sufficient?
“Now I praise you brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ORDINANCES (The Greek text says, ‘keep the TRADITIONS’), as I delivered them to you.” —1Cor 11:2
“And the things that thou hast HEARD of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.” — 2 Tim. 2:2
“By which ye are saved, if ye keep in MEMORY what I PREACHED (verbal teaching not written) to you, unless ye have believed in vain.” —1Cor 15:2. NOTE Faith then cometh by hearing, not reading.

“Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say: Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the whole world.” —Rom. 10:17-18 . “If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immovable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.”----Col. 1:23. “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book …” — John 20"30:

Can you give me the name of 1 human being, in the history of mankind, who has used “Scripture alone” to learn how to be saved? This person must have never heard or learned anything about salvation from someone else, like a parent, preacher, friend, a bible translator, a bible scholar, etc?

Please think about this because the only conclusion is “No”. If there has never been 1 person to learn all they need to know from reading Scripture, then how can Scripture be totally sufficient?