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JB_Brother_4446
Guest
Or the option was on the table to receive forgiveness. Jestas didn’t accept it.
In short, God always forgives us, but humanity refuses to accept his gift of forgiveness.
'Nuff said
Jesus' words: Father, forgive them, for they no not what they do"--in regard to unrepentant sinners
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In short, God always forgives us, but humanity refuses to accept his gift of forgiveness.
'Nuff said
P
prodromos
Guest
I think you’ve nailed it.
In working with people who’ve been abused as kids, one of the biggest steps in their road to healing is in being able to forgive their abuser. Until they are able to do that they remain bound psychologically to their abuser and are unable to make much progress. Forgiving their abuser allows them to offload a huge amount of bitterness and resentment that would otherwise slowly knaw at them.
R
rcwitness
Guest
Yes!And if we do not forgive others, we are rejecting the Spirit of His Son.
I only believe that we can do this in a venial manner as well. Only God knows how deeply we reject Him. Grudges and resentments have many levels. We ought to embrace forgiveness of others, because the measure in which we judge, is the measure by which we will be judged.
G
guanophore
Guest
Forgiveness is the ultimate healing for bitterness and resentment. God has already forgiven everything in Christ. He waits only for us to avail ourselves of it. God has called us to love, and love always forgives, even when the recipient is unrepentant.
1 Corinthians 13:7
7 Love forgives everything. Love is always trusting, and always hoping, and never gives up.
C
clem456
Guest
I just finished reading Romano Guardini’s book “The Lord”.
He talks about forgiveness being like a current rather than a transaction. If we are the stoppage in that current, it cannot flow. We only experience it to the degree it flows out to others.
And here’s the thing in the vertical direction to God:
All of us, without exception, desperately need forgiveness. It is a tragedy not to know it. When we don’t accept our own reality as sinners, we are in serious trouble.
We find it harder to participate in forgiveness, and find excuses to withhold.
He talks about forgiveness being like a current rather than a transaction. If we are the stoppage in that current, it cannot flow. We only experience it to the degree it flows out to others.
And here’s the thing in the vertical direction to God:
All of us, without exception, desperately need forgiveness. It is a tragedy not to know it. When we don’t accept our own reality as sinners, we are in serious trouble.
We find it harder to participate in forgiveness, and find excuses to withhold.
G
guanophore
Guest
Shaking dust does not equate to a lack of forgiveness. It is a gesture that we are separating ourselves from those who have chosen to pesist in sin. It is a method of giving others notice that they are making a wrong choice. We can separate, move on, and still forgive. Forgiveness does not mean you allow someone to continue to hurt you.
Exactly and specifically. We forgive them because they know not what they do.
It is not for us to know who goes to hell. Since we cannot judge the heart, we are spiritually safer to forgive them, and leave them to His judgement.
It is a difficult concept to understand becuase it defies logic and human nature.
I notice there is no mention that the brother was repentant…
R
rcwitness
Guest
And here’s something interesting…
Jesus does command them to forgive… yet when commissioning them with the ministry of Reconciliation, He acknowledges that they may retain sins or pardon.
It’s as though they are being offered forgiveness, yet the Absolution is not guaranteed.
C
clem456
Guest
There’s a difference between absolution and forgiveness. Related, but not the same.
P
PJM
Guest
GREAT Questions
Jesus was and IS ALWAY’s both God & man; possessing two complete and perfect natures: a perfect human nature & a Perfect Divine Nature.
So when Jesus spoke these words; he did so BOTH as God and man.
GOD could NOT forgive IF Jesus {the man} had chosen NOT to forgive. Further Jesus could NOT sin, hence he HAD to be forgiving.
Hebrews 9:11
But Christ, being come an high priest of the good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, that is, not of this creation:
As to the second statement:
This is FACT! WHY?
Because THEY did not {the degree of culpability is KNOWN ONLY by God}, that Jesus WAS exactly who and WHAT he claimed to be: the son of God.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
Hence they DID NOT “know”; all though they both COULD and SHOULD have. BUT God’s ways are not our: Isaiah 55:6-20
God Bless you,
PJM
M
mommy_k
Guest
For some reason-my quote button is not working so Please bear with me as I have a few more questions that relate to this discussion:
In the case of not being able to read someones soul—
Jesus said we will know them by their fruit- so it is safe to say we can see what a person or group is all about- Serial killers, abortionists, satan worshipers and so on…
And if you point out the destruction and evil to the group or person, and the continue to sin and spread evil and malice and destruction—what does this forgiveness look like- besides praying and doing reparation for them?
If someone can explain to me how Jesus forgave Judas or the money changers in temple this could help answer this for me. Of course he died for all sinners-but how did he demonstrate forgiveness specifically targeted to two examples?
The defintion of forgiveness is not to harbor any ill will towards a person or group, and not to seek justice for our own sake. To understand and have compassion. I don’t believe this is possible in some cases, even if done from afar.
In the case of not being able to read someones soul—
Jesus said we will know them by their fruit- so it is safe to say we can see what a person or group is all about- Serial killers, abortionists, satan worshipers and so on…
And if you point out the destruction and evil to the group or person, and the continue to sin and spread evil and malice and destruction—what does this forgiveness look like- besides praying and doing reparation for them?
If someone can explain to me how Jesus forgave Judas or the money changers in temple this could help answer this for me. Of course he died for all sinners-but how did he demonstrate forgiveness specifically targeted to two examples?
The defintion of forgiveness is not to harbor any ill will towards a person or group, and not to seek justice for our own sake. To understand and have compassion. I don’t believe this is possible in some cases, even if done from afar.
B
bmullins
Guest
One is supposed to judge fruit, of course. What we are not to do is judge intention or eternal destination. That is for God and God alone. Only he can see into the hearts of man, only he is the one who knows if we have repented or not. It all boils down to that whole mortal sin thing. Do they really know what they are doing? Do they really know that it’s wrong? Are they truly free from influence (addiction, bad raising, traumatic experiences) to be able to make a decision rightly? Their fruit is bad… that doesn’t mean that the ‘tree’ knows it’s bad. That’s why the parable says that the gardener (Jesus) asked for another year to fertilize and care for the tree, to try and help it produce fruit.
Definitely a case by case response. It might look like calling the police to report them so that they and those they harm are brought to safety. It might look like reaching out continually in a gentle way to remind them their actions are wrong. It might look like picketing in front of a building to prevent their actions. It really isn’t a one case fits all situation. Love can take many forms. I love my kids. I love them both when I lavish them with gifts and candy, and when I punish them for doing wrong. Loving does not mean coddling and supporting in every thing.
We don’t know exactly what may have happened outside of scripture right? We don’t see Jesus in Scripture forgiving Judas or even speaking to Judas, but we see Judas eventually giving up hope. The one thing that strikes me though is that Jesus is the King of Kings, the Lord of all the Armies of the Angels. When Judas got up to leave the last supper, Jesus in a way allowed him to participate in salvation history. Judas had the same opportunity as Peter. Notice that Peter went fishing in his sorrow. Jesus came after him. He presented himself to him again. Peter then ran to Jesus and Jesus challenged him to lead his flock with true Agape love. We don’t know that Judas did not experience a similar experience and run from it… we don’t know that he did… what we do know is that God can forgive any sin except refusal to be forgiven (blasphemy.)
There are times that we do indeed struggle, all of us to forgive. That’s why we need Him. At those moments, for me at least, I find that praying for God to give me the grace to forgive is transformative. It brings me a peace that I know though I am not ready to forgive yet, and that I am struggling to even stomach the thought of it, that God is working in me to bring about that change… in both me, and in them. I’ve given up long ago praying "God make them like… " this or that, or even me. Instead I pray “God make them and me more like you.”
H
hu324b
Guest
It appears that some believe forgiveness is only for sinners - actually forgiving people helps us - it makes us less bitter , it allows us to let go of grudges and resentments - it heals our souls. How can you ever come to help others if you already resent them for what they do.
This is the exact same attitude that Jesus pointed out in the pharisees - they think they are holy and good but look down on sinners with judgement and no love in their hearts - God is Love and mercy .
I believe the head Centurion looked on and said in his own words : Truly this man was the Son of God. Mark 15:39 and was redeemed not to mention probably many other who were looking on.
Jesus also points out many times in many different ways that in order to be forgiven we must forgive also - in the lords prayer : And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
God is always ready to forgive - his own words:
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from their ways and live.
People take pleasure - God does not.
This is the exact same attitude that Jesus pointed out in the pharisees - they think they are holy and good but look down on sinners with judgement and no love in their hearts - God is Love and mercy .
I believe the head Centurion looked on and said in his own words : Truly this man was the Son of God. Mark 15:39 and was redeemed not to mention probably many other who were looking on.
Jesus also points out many times in many different ways that in order to be forgiven we must forgive also - in the lords prayer : And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
God is always ready to forgive - his own words:
Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from their ways and live.
People take pleasure - God does not.
H
hu324b
Guest
I will also add today’s gospel :
Jesus addressed this parable
to those who were convinced of their own righteousness
and despised everyone else.
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray;
one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself,
‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity —
greedy, dishonest, adulterous — or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week,
and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
But the tax collector stood off at a distance
and would not even raise his eyes to heaven
but beat his breast and prayed,
‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’
I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled,
and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Jesus addressed this parable
to those who were convinced of their own righteousness
and despised everyone else.
“Two people went up to the temple area to pray;
one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself,
‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity —
greedy, dishonest, adulterous — or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week,
and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
But the tax collector stood off at a distance
and would not even raise his eyes to heaven
but beat his breast and prayed,
‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’
I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former;
for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled,
and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”
C
clem456
Guest
Yes. Forgiveness is for sinners, period.
There is no “only” in sinners.
We are all sinners. So if we are looking for those who are excluded from God’s forgiveness, we might be in trouble.
H
hu324b
Guest
I am a sinner and I live with that everyday I will always be a sinner I am one of the people always praying for forgiveness and that is why I will not judge any other of my fellow sinners I will look on with love and forgiveness - I am one of these people who a poster said they do not want to forgive - you missed the point I was making - that forgiving people heals us.
I have seen posts on this site where people would like to kick all sinners out of the church and have only those who feel they are righteous be in the church. - those are the people I mean - those who think they are sinless or no longer sinners yet there is no love or mercy in their hearts
I have seen posts on this site where people would like to kick all sinners out of the church and have only those who feel they are righteous be in the church. - those are the people I mean - those who think they are sinless or no longer sinners yet there is no love or mercy in their hearts
P
PJM
Guest
That is correct; on the evidence of their actions; but not on SPECULATION of their motives.
JUDGE the SIN, BUT NOT the SINNER! Only God has all the FACTS necessary to do that
Here’s HOW
God can be describes briefly BUT accurately as:
“GOD IS ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED”
Then we ask:
Are Justice and Fairness GOOD things? Of course theyt are; so we can KNOW that God possesses them.
The defintion of forgiveness is not to harbor any ill will towards a person or group, and not to seek justice for our own sake. To understand and have compassion. I don’t believe this is possible in some cases, even if done from afar.
The ONLY unforgivable sin is DENIAL OF GOD HIMSELF
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God: whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption
Mt 18: 21-22
“[21] Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? [22] Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.”
Luke 23:34
And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do
Mark 11:26
But if you will not forgive, neither will your Father that is in heaven, forgive you your sins
CAN GOD EXPECT ANY LESS FROM HIMSELF:shrug:
God Bless you,
Partick
G
guanophore
Guest
Yes, based upon their fruits, it would be prudent not to associate with such groups. But groups are not the subjects of sin and forgiveness, but people.
We cannot know the hearts of others, though it does seem pretty clear that there are some people that continue in sin and spread evil, malice, and destruction. I once met a Satanist who told me it was his mission in life to “make Christians miserable”.
This is why I believe that some people willingly and knowingly reject God.
He demonstrated love to them, which includes discipline of those who are called by His name. He is Love, and Love always forgives. His redemption and forgiveness, however, is only of benefit to those who accept it by grace, through faith. Those who refuse HIs forgiveness, He allows.
Not for us as limited human beings, certainly, but only with the grace of God. Only when His love abides in us, and we are able to look with His eyes, can we have compassion even for those who are hateful to HIm.
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Sadly, I have had a number of similar encounters, and it is difficult if the abuse happened many years ago, they have carried this hurt and anger that eats away at them.
The abuser could be living a thousand miles away, they could even be dead, but they still control what goes on in the victims head. The only person who should be in control of my thoughts is me, it is just so much easier to forgive than to hate, even if you can never get justice.
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross, and we know he prayed forgive them Father.
Nothing seemed to stand in the way of Jesus living by the greatest commandments, I doubt the soldiers were repentant, and Jesus could have acted in a less great way; if he chose to.
Does the level of forgiveness; depend on how extreme we are prepared to live by the greatest ?
M
Memaw
Guest
God’s forgiveness is always there for us but HE will not force it on us. We must repent sincerely to be forgiven. God Bless, Memaw
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