Jesus' words: Father, forgive them, for they no not what they do"--in regard to unrepentant sinners

  • Thread starter Thread starter mommy_k
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
mommy_k said:
Here is a link for John 20: 21-23.

Which is essentailly saying repentance is needed for forgiveness- and to forgive as God does. And God expects remittance and repentance for sin.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+20%3A21-23&version=KJV
Click to expand...
I think this passage is being taken out of context. The context is Jesus giving priestly authority to His Apostles in the upper room. While all Scripture is written FOR us, it is not all written ABOUT us. Priests are given the duty to help those separated from Christ and the Church through mortal sins to restore that relationship. This is not the responsibility of the layperson. Furthermore, the passage does not indicate anything about sufficient “repentance”.

Laypersons are not instructed to wait until someone is repentant to forgive them. It is not our place to stand in the person of Christ and enable the separated to return to right relationship with the Church. We are responsible for our own souls and actions. We are not appointed sheperds over the souls of others, as are the priests. It is for us to free ourselves from the poison of resentment by forgiving others their trespasses, just as the Lord forgives us.
 
mommy_k said:
I was having this discussion today:

The first was-That Jesus did not offer His personal forgiveness to His crucifiers. He asked God the Father t forgive then…

The second was that Jesus said-“They know not what they do.”

So–if this is the case how do we reconcile this with forgiveness in our lives–with people who clearly know what they are doing and not repentant?

Also, it was mentioned that there is not one scripture in the bible that states that we have to forgive unrepentant sinners.
Click to expand...
Only the just are saved, and that requires repentance in addition to forgiveness. So Jesus prayed for those that were predestined to be saved. As St. Thomas Aquinas said in Summa Theologica, Part III, Q21, Article 4. Whether Christ’s prayer was always heard?:

Objection 2. Further, He prayed that the sin of those who crucified Him might be forgiven, as is related (Luke 23:34). Yet not all were pardoned this sin, since the Jews were punished on account thereof. Therefore it seems that not every prayer of His was heard.

Objection 3. Further, our Lord prayed for them “who would believe in Him through the word” of the apostles, that they “might all be one in Him,” and that they might attain to being with Him (John 17:20-24). But not all attain to this. Therefore not every prayer of His was heard.
…

Reply to Objection 2. Our Lord did not pray for all those who crucified Him, as neither did He for all those who would believe in Him; but for those only who were predestinated to obtain eternal life through Him. Wherefore the reply to the third objection is also manifest.
 
guanophore said:
I think this passage is being taken out of context. The context is Jesus giving priestly authority to His Apostles in the upper room. While all Scripture is written FOR us, it is not all written ABOUT us. Priests are given the duty to help those separated from Christ and the Church through mortal sins to restore that relationship. This is not the responsibility of the layperson. Furthermore, the passage does not indicate anything about sufficient “repentance”.

Laypersons are not instructed to wait until someone is repentant to forgive them. It is not our place to stand in the person of Christ and enable the separated to return to right relationship with the Church. We are responsible for our own souls and actions. We are not appointed sheperds over the souls of others, as are the priests. It is for us to free ourselves from the poison of resentment by forgiving others their trespasses, just as the Lord forgives us.
Click to expand...
👍
This distinction cannot seem to be grasped.
Or accepted.
 
clem456 said:
👍
This distinction cannot seem to be grasped.
Or accepted.
Click to expand...
Human beings sometimes go to great lengths to defend the “right” to hang on to resentment.

Holding resentment is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die.
 
Thank you for your replies.

Forgiveness should be unconditional-however not without consequence, such as shaking the dust off our feet etc…
We are not called to have others dictate what forgiveness looks like-it is between us and God and if our hearts harbor no ill feelings or resentment and so on- we are following the teachings on this.

Got It.
 
guanophore said:
Human beings sometimes go to great lengths to defend the “right” to hang on to resentment.

Holding resentment is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die.
Click to expand...
It is a truly blessed person who can let go, stop coveting, stop envying, be forgiving by disposition. I believe this is the narrow road Christ is talking about. Very hard to do.

For me, I only have the ability to forgive to the degree I am aware of my own need for it. That hurts. It can be ugly.
I wish I just had an elemental disposition for it.
 
Jesus said if a person wrongs us seven times in a day and apologizes, we are to forgive him. Never did he say to forgive an unrepentant person.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
Jesus said if a person wrongs us seven times in a day and apologizes, we are to forgive him. Never did he say to forgive an unrepentant person.
Click to expand...
🤷
Forgiveness
Click to expand...
Code: 
  21Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
Click to expand...
Code: 
  23“For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. 24“When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25“But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made. 26“So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.’ 27“And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt. 28“But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ 29“So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, ‘Have patience with me and I will repay you.’ 30“But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed. 31“So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened. 32“Then summoning him, his lord said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33‘Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34“And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35“My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”
Click to expand...
I hope you have confidence in you own ability to repent. If you repent imperfectly you might have a problem, given the point of view you expressed.
Not to mention those sins you might not be aware of, and so are not moved to repent.

Why not just admit your need before God, recognize his boundless mercy to you, and pass it on to others?
Why roll the dice on your own righteousness?
 
clem456 said:
🤷

I hope you have confidence in you own ability to repent. If you repent imperfectly you might have a problem, given the point of view you expressed.
Not to mention those sins you might not be aware of, and so are not moved to repent.

Why not just admit your need before God, recognize his boundless mercy to you, and pass it on to others?
Why roll the dice on your own righteousness?
Click to expand...
Indeed you misquote Scripture. Jesus explicitly said to treat as a pagan anyone who would not listen to the Church.
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
Indeed you misquote Scripture. Jesus explicitly said to treat as a pagan anyone who would not listen to the Church.
Click to expand...
Excuse me. I do not misquote scripture. And you should not make false accusations.

The passage was quoted verbatim from here
biblehub.com/nasb/matthew/18.htm
verbatim:
ver·ba·tim
vərˈbādəm/
adverb & adjective
in exactly the same words as were used originally.
Click to expand...
Here it is from usccb.org/bible/matthew/18
Argue with your bishop,.
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.*
21
n Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?”
22
  • Jesus answered, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times.
    23
    o That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants.
    24
  • When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount.
    25
    Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt.
    26
  • At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’
    27
    Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan.
    28
    When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount.* He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’
    29
    Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’
    30
    But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt.
    31
    Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair.
    32
    His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to.
    33
    p Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’
    34
    Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.*
    35
  • q So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”
Click to expand...
 
mommy_k said:
Thank you for your replies.

Forgiveness should be unconditional-however not without consequence, such as shaking the dust off our feet etc…
We are not called to have others dictate what forgiveness looks like-it is between us and God and if our hearts harbor no ill feelings or resentment and so on- we are following the teachings on this.

Got It.
Click to expand...
I think you make an essential point, mommy k, that there are still consequences after forgiveness. This is clear in our belief about purgatory!

Here on earth, we are as much called not to support or be involved in sin, so we must alter our relationships sometimes to prevent participating in sin. The Church teaches there are nine ways to participate in the sins of others:
  1. By counsel (“You should get an abortion”)
  2. By command (“You must get an abortion”)
  3. By consent (“You are getting an abortion? Good idea!”)
  4. By provocation (“He will get angry if I keep bugging him”)
  5. By praise or flattery (“Way to cheat on your wife buddy!”)
  6. By concealment (“I’ll cover-up your crime”)
  7. By partaking (“We can rob this business together”)
  8. By silence (“I know you stole it, but I won’t tell”)
  9. By defense of the sinful action (“His car was unlocked; it deserved to be stolen”)
Continuing to collaborate with someone or associate with them could qualify in one of these areas. We are not to approve sin, or tacitly support it, which is where the shaking of the dust happens.

I think you are right, that no one can know or has the right to judge what is between you and God with regard to forgiveness. It is important that we not harbor resentments, but we have no obligation to meet other people’s concept of what that forgiveness may look like. 👍
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
Jesus said if a person wrongs us seven times in a day and apologizes, we are to forgive him. Never did he say to forgive an unrepentant person.
Click to expand...
Really? I could not find that verse in my bible. 😉
JB_Brother_4446 said:
Indeed you misquote Scripture. Jesus explicitly said to treat as a pagan anyone who would not listen to the Church.
Click to expand...
Of course! Is there any circumstance in which you would not forgive a Pagan? did not Jesus forgive the pagans who crucified him? We are to love pagans, pray for them, bless them and bring Christ to them. While they were yet sinners, Christ died for them. In the story of the good Samaritan, Jesus makes it clear that we are to be neighbor to all those who need our help. A person excommunicating themselves from the Church for failure to respond to the discipline of the Church is even more in need of our love, prayers and forgiveness!

Clem456 posted it again with links. There is no requirement that the other sinner repent. the requirement is that we repent!
 
guanophore said:
Human beings sometimes go to great lengths to defend the “right” to hang on to resentment.

Holding resentment is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die.
Click to expand...
I have found that the person who gains the most, is the person who does the forgiving.

Gandhi said, only the strong can forgive.
 
Eric_Hyom said:
I have found that the person who gains the most, is the person who does the forgiving.

Gandhi said, only the strong can forgive.
Click to expand...
👍
We become strong in Christ, by knowing who we are in God’s eyes.
We are sinners. By admitting our sinfulness and need for God, our hearts and eyes are opened to mercy, and we are able to give it to others.

If I don’t realize I need it,
ask God for it,
and accept it,
then I can’t give it to others, and I object to others receiving it.

If I know I need it, and don’t give it to others, I will not experience it.
It’s a current that flows in and flows out.
Are you envious because I am generous?
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top