But I wonder what the repentance is worth, if he repeats the offence seven times a day, and repents seven times. It almost hints that it is better to keep forgiving, even if the repentance does not sound that sincere.3 Be on your guard! If another disciple[a] sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4 And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive.”
Luke 17:3-4
Notice Jesus says IF. Do you want Jesus to contradict himself.
Exactly! Forgiveness is as much for the forgiver as it is to the forgivee. And forgiveness does not mean we have to put our nose back within reach of the fist!But I wonder what the repentance is worth, if he repeats the offence seven times a day, and repents seven times. It almost hints that it is better to keep forgiving, even if the repentance does not sound that sincere.
How many times can you punch someone on the nose and say sorry?
IF.Exactly! Forgiveness is as much for the forgiver as it is to the forgivee. And forgiveness does not mean we have to put our nose back within reach of the fist!
God is love, and love always forgives.
How does that little word “if” apply to you? And when does it no longer apply? To you, not someone else. You.
He said “IF he repents.” “IF.” You capitalized the letter in the wrong place.God is love, and love always forgives.
The father is always ready to kill the fatted calf, even before we have returned.
I don’t think I capitalized any letters.He said “IF he repents.” “IF.” You capitalized the letter in the wrong place.
He said IF. Jesus said If he repents not even if he doesn’t repent.I don’t think I capitalized any letters.
God is love.
Love always forgives.
God is love GodHe said IF. Jesus said If he repents not even if he doesn’t repent.
No. You disregard Jesus word to forgive only if he repents. It is a command.God is love God
Always forgives.
God’s forgiveness is always there. Before you come home, he has already forgiven you. If you desire to accept it and experience it, you turn around and come home.
You seem to have the impression that repentance causes forgiveness. It does not.
Repentance is a response.
To repent means to “re-think”, or to change one’s way of thinking. It has nothing whatsoever to do with earning the gift of forgiveness. You cannot earn grace.
Repentance is a reaction to God’s constant initiative, not the cause of it.
We are called to model this constancy in our dealings with others, 70x7.
(and by the way, you are cherry picking scripture to try and prove a point)
All of Scripture has to be incorporated to arrive at a right conclusion. The Lord’s prayer does not mention “if”.No. You disregard Jesus word to forgive only if he repents. It is a command.
2*And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors;Well what about the passage I mentioned? Luke 17:3-4? Are His words in this passage not important as the ones you mentioned? Is it Luke 17:3-4 vs all the other passages in the Bible? It is not I who tailor scripture, but you.All of Scripture has to be incorporated to arrive at a right conclusion. The Lord’s prayer does not mention “if”.
For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15*but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14–15Code:2*And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors;
Neither do other passages that speak of forgiveness. Nothing about repentance here…
21Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.
“unless you forgive your brother in your heart” is consistent. We are to leave the sacrifice on the altar, go, and be reconciled, then return to the altar.
I will concede that there are times when reconciliation is not possible. Both parties must be willing for reconciliation to happen. But that does not absolve us from the commandment to forgive.
5*And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” Mark 11:25
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; Luke 6:37–38
Nothing about waiting for repentance here either…
47*Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” Luke 7:47–48
Forgiving others opens us to love much. Waiting until they repent keeps us in “love little”.
31Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, 32and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:31–32
Forgiveness frees us from bitterness, wrath, anger, resentment and a multitude of bad fruits. God did not wait until we repented before He gave His life to pay for our sins. Neither do we need to wait until others repent to forgive them.
Maybe there is some reason that you must hang on to this “if” but it cannot be applied across the board. It is clear that Jesus did not wait for those who crucified him to repent. Waiting for others to repent will just stunt our growth.
They are all important, and they must all be integrated into a correct understanding. You have asserted that the “command” in the passage to which you are clinging is more important or more valid somehow than all the other passages that do not include your “if” condition.Well what about the passage I mentioned? Luke 17:3-4? Are His words in this passage not important as the ones you mentioned? Is it Luke 17:3-4 vs all the other passages in the Bible? It is not I who tailor scripture, but you.
Always test scripture against the greatest commandments, you cannot do anything greater. How did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loved himself? Those who condemned him to death and nailed him to the cross, we know he prayed forgive them Father.Well what about the passage I mentioned? Luke 17:3-4? Are His words in this passage not important as the ones you mentioned? Is it Luke 17:3-4 vs all the other passages in the Bible? It is not I who tailor scripture, but you.
It is a command to forgive without counting the cost.No. You disregard Jesus word to forgive only if he repents. It is a command.
Yes, Luke 17:3-4 , Titus 3:10 and many others.Well what about the passage I mentioned? Luke 17:3-4? Are His words in this passage not important as the ones you mentioned? Is it Luke 17:3-4 vs all the other passages in the Bible? It is not I who tailor scripture, but you.
And the catechism directly addresses this “impossiblity” and how it is possible in Christ.Yes, Luke 17:3-4 , Titus 3:10 and many others.
I was told not to infer.
What about when Jesus told the adultress-repent and sin no more? What would have happened if she went and sinned again, came back-got forgiveness, went out sinned again, came back, and on and on and on? Jesus would have shaken the dust from his feet. I don’t think he would have verbally given forgiveness to her 140 times.
However:
This forgiveness that God wants is a spiritual one I am told and can happen from a distance. We are warned to stay away from deviant people who do not repent especially if they repeat and repeat hurtful behavior. We are told to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing.
We are not asked to continuoslly throw pearls before swine. So this hints to not waste time and be the cause of another’s sin by our presence. It is instruction on how to deal with the unrepentant people in our lives, I believe.
We are to shake the dust off our feet, and forgive spiritually for our own salvation. I know in some cases this is darn well nearly impossible–but we have to try.
V. “AND FORGIVE US OUR TRESPASSES, AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US”
2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, “And forgive us our trespasses,” it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord’s Prayer, since Christ’s sacrifice is “that sins may be forgiven.” But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”
And forgive us our trespasses . . .
2839 With bold confidence, we began praying to our Father. In begging him that his name be hallowed, we were in fact asking him that we ourselves might be always made more holy. But though we are clothed with the baptismal garment, we do not cease to sin, to turn away from God. Now, in this new petition, we return to him like the prodigal son and, like the tax collector, recognize that we are sinners before him.133 Our petition begins with a “confession” of our wretchedness and his mercy. Our hope is firm because, in his Son, "we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."134 We find the efficacious and undoubted sign of his forgiveness in the sacraments of his Church.135
2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. Love, like the Body of Christ, is indivisible; we cannot love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother or sister we do see.136 In refusing to forgive our brothers and sisters, our hearts are closed and their hardness makes them impervious to the Father’s merciful love; but in confessing our sins, our hearts are opened to his grace.
2841 This petition is so important that it is the only one to which the Lord returns and which he develops explicitly in the Sermon on the Mount.137 This crucial requirement of the covenant mystery is impossible for man. But "with God all things are possible."138
. . . as we forgive those who trespass against us
2842 This “as” is not unique in Jesus’ teaching: “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; “Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful”; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another."139 It is impossible to keep the Lord’s commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make “ours” the same mind that was in Christ Jesus.140 Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves “forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave” us.141
2843 Thus the Lord’s words on forgiveness, the love that loves to the end,142 become a living reality. The parable of the merciless servant, which crowns the Lord’s teaching on ecclesial communion, ends with these words: "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."143 It is there, in fact, “in the depths of the heart,” that everything is bound and loosed. It is not in our power not to feel or to forget an offense; but the heart that offers itself to the Holy Spirit turns injury into compassion and purifies the memory in transforming the hurt into intercession.
2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies,144 transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.145
2845 There is no limit or measure to this essentially divine forgiveness,146 whether one speaks of “sins” as in Luke (11:4), “debts” as in Matthew (6:12). We are always debtors: "Owe no one anything, except to love one another."147 The communion of the Holy Trinity is the source and criterion of truth in every relation ship. It is lived out in prayer, above all in the Eucharist.148
God does not accept the sacrifice of a sower of disunion, but commands that he depart from the altar so that he may first be reconciled with his brother. For God can be appeased only by prayers that make peace. To God, the better offering is peace, brotherly concord, and a people made one in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.149
If!3 Be on your guard! If another disciple[a] sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4 And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive.”
Luke 17:3-4
Notice Jesus says IF. Do you want Jesus to contradict himself.