"Jesus wouldn't condemn abortion"

[SuperLuigi]

He already does.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Jesus is God, the creator of the universe (John 1 does a good job of summing it up). Why would he send his own creation to be brutally murdered?

 

[Midwest88]

“well rounded intellectual”

Could’ve fooled me.

 

[ArielRussu]

Jesus is God, the creator of the universe (John 1 does a good job of summing it up). Why would he send his own creation to be brutally murdered?

Because He’s God and can do what He wants.

 

[FirstFiveEighth]

I have an acquaintance (we share a common hobby) who is a very well rounded intellectual individual. He is also an atheist borderline on anti-theist. He frequently spouts these wordy intellectual style arguments when confronted with a religious point. Someone else called into question the morality of abortion (They were of a Christian background). I have relayed his exact response below. How would one counter this argument? If I am ever personally confronted with this reasoning I’d like to know. In this case, I don’t feel like jumping in some Facebook scrum because all the other militant atheist/liberals will come out in force:

Well I wouldn’t worry too much about this grand intellectual argument-it is a load of codswallop. About the only thing he comes close to getting correct is that Jesus was “working class” insofar as he was a carpenter with his step-father and that is a “working class” job today, and that he came from Galilee.

Literally everything else in his expo is his own personal opinion. For example, he claims that the Jesus followed by Christians isn’t the real Jesus and he didn’t teach what it is claimed he taught. At the same time he claims it is therefore impossible to know what Jesus actually taught. How can he know this? What evidence has he got that shows the words of Jesus aren’t the words of Jesus? He then claims Jesus is an amalgamation of several different people. Which people? I have heard Buddha from people before, maybe that is what he means. If so a quick search found this link: equip.org/article/jesus-and-buddha/ . Regardless, he is merely speculating about history to fit his narrative.

The last point I will touch on is his insistence that Jesus was probably totally cool with infanticide because the Romans were, and that he hated sex because he was apparently an apocalyptic guy and thought sex=children=suffering=bad. Meanwhile Jesus himself is quoted as saying, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the Kingdom of God”.

Long story short, this guy doesn’t know what he is talking about, but likes the sound of his own “sophisticated” musings.

 

[edwest2]

Because Jesus isn’t on record as proscribing it, He would also approve of:
homosexual activity
same sex “marriage”
“transgender” as normal and healthy
bestiality
necrophilia
orgies
fill in the blank

And there you have it.

Ed

 

[anon90438963]

Agree that this person is not intellectual at all, just trying to use words to impress his audience. He’s not going to listen, so be brief, decisive, and walk away from the argument. Don’t try to engage in a war of words. I’d say, what part of “Thou shalt not kill” don’t you understand? It is a commandment from God, and Jesus emphasized that he did not come to destroy the Law but fulfill it. In fact, He went even deeper to intentionality: “You have heard it said…”, condemning the anger in the heart that leads to murder. The Bible tells us in numerous places that God Alone is the author of life, that life is sacred, and the NO ONE has the right to interfere.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Ahhh, yet another pseudo-intellectual…pity him, pray for him, and ignore him.

 

[AdamP88]

From what we know about history of Ancient Middle East and early development of Christianity, it MUST be said that Christianity is not the religion of historical figure named Jesus, but a religion ABOUT “Jesus”. The historical Jesus, at best, could be described as a Aramaic-speaking working class individual from lower Galilee region - itself a dustbowl of the Roman empire - who was most probably illiterate and believed in this very common ancient beliefs of his time - apocalypticism - which was a pessimistic and hardcore dualistic belief about the universe. His beliefs simply couldn’t be compatible with our modern worldview - in short, it was a bronze age superstition.

This is simply an opinion about the person of Jesus. There’s nothing to back this up.
We know Jesus wasn’t illiterate because the Gospel records him reading in the synagogue. Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism is very much a synthesis of Jesus’ teaching and all the teachings of the Church can be traced to the teaching of Christ and the words of Scripture.

The big inherent problem of “following Jesus” is that this version of Jesus in Christianity is an amalgam of several different individuals besides Jesus himself. Some of these individuals - whoever they were - heavily distorted the original teachings of Jesus, or sometimes made the entire thing up to fit their own theological standings and other more earthly purposes. As a result, it is a near impossibility to reconstruct what the man Jesus actually had said and taught to his disciples. Therefore, the whole “What Would Jesus Do?” argument simply falls apart by default.

Again, where is the exegesis to back this up? It’s just an uneducated ramble that easily would fall apart on inspection from anyone who has a basic knowledge of the scripture. Jesus passed on a way that we should live, and the Jewish Tradition passed down a moral code. Jesus largely left it up to his Apostles to decide what should be retained from the Jewish Law. Jesus didn’t give a teaching on every moral issue. He left it up to his Apostles to make a call on these things.

You also claimed that Jesus had prohibited his disciples not to have an abortion. This clearly shows you never read your bible. Why would Jesus tell his disciples - all male, nonetheless - not to have an abortion in the first place? In fact, it is nowhere in the bible, both in the Old and the New Testament. I challenge you to find me a verse from the New Testament in which Jesus (or anyone who has the same authority as him in the bible) himself explicitly say about abortion.

He didn’t teach on abortion. But that doesn’t mean he would condone it. He did say that he hadn’t come to change the law but to complete it. The Jews and the early church Fathers would have viewed interference with a pregnancy as being gravely wrong.

If we can argue, again, about historical Jesus, Jesus would certainly haven’t had talked about abortion, because, given by the fact he was an apocalypticist, he probably raised objections against any sort of human sexual intimacy whatsoever. This is because the act of procreation itself was viewed as a sin and a cause of suffering in the ancient apocalyptic worldview.

What the hell??!! I laughed at this. I’m guessing when Jesus suggested that the man and woman should leave their parents and become “one flesh” he was talking about holding hands and watching the sun set.

Also… I think this guy is mixing up Judaism with Buddhism or Manicheaism

Last but not least, you failed to realize that abortion, infanticide and child abandonment were permitted and sometimes even encouraged, under Roman law at the time of Jesus (and in fact, throughout much of human history). None of these actions were considered as immoral behavior in those days. I think Jesus probably didn’t object to any of these activities.

The Jews would have considered this gravely immoral.

Again, I rest my case here. If you have further questions and arguments, feel free to write me back via my email. However, I think I wouldn’t be convinced at all about your so-called “Pro-life” argument, because it lacks any sufficient understanding of history, medical science, sociology, etc

.

Haha…what “case”? His so-called “case” just shows a complete ignorance of history and of the religious traditions pertinent to the issue at hand. In fact, many of the things he mentions became a thing of the past when Christianity and the Judeo-Christian morality began to spread throughout the Roman Empire.

 

[Otar_Mendes]

I dunno about Jesus but God-father certainly didn’t have any problems whatsoever with abortions considering his actions and what his followers did with his blessing… It comes straight from the Old testament.

 

[2cherubs]

I’m weighing in late but would love to take a stab at this. I won’t dissect and deconstruct the entire argument, but I’d like to address a couple of his points.

The big inherent problem of “following Jesus” is that this version of Jesus in Christianity is an amalgam of several different individuals besides Jesus himself. Some of these individuals - whoever they were - heavily distorted the original teachings of Jesus, or sometimes made the entire thing up to fit their own theological standings and other more earthly purposes. As a result, it is a near impossibility to reconstruct what the man Jesus actually had said and taught to his disciples. Therefore, the whole “What Would Jesus Do?” argument simply falls apart by default.

Your friend is contradicting himself. He cannot proclaim that Jesus wouldn’t condemn abortion if, to use his words, “it is a near impossibility to reconstruct what the man Jesus actually had said and taught to his disciples.”

You also claimed that Jesus had prohibited his disciples not to have an abortion. This clearly shows you never read your bible. Why would Jesus tell his disciples - all male, nonetheless - not to have an abortion in the first place? In fact, it is nowhere in the bible, both in the Old and the New Testament. I challenge you to find me a verse from the New Testament in which Jesus (or anyone who has the same authority as him in the bible) himself explicitly say about abortion.

This one is easy. The “challenge” is ridiculous and unnecessary.

Jesus upheld and reiterated the Ten Commandments, which unequivocally stated, “Thou shalt not kill.”

Abortion is one method of killing a defenseless human being. (Expect to be challenged on this. I strongly, strongly recommend to all pro-lifers a little booklet called Pro-Life 101).

Failure to specify the particular method of killing a defenseless person doesn’t make that method morally acceptable. You won’t find “Thou shalt not open fire on an elementary school classroom” anywhere in the Scriptures, but it’s pretty clear that it’s covered under “Thou shalt not kill.”

Last but not least, you failed to realize that abortion, infanticide and child abandonment were permitted and sometimes even encouraged, under Roman law at the time of Jesus (and in fact, throughout much of human history). None of these actions were considered as immoral behavior in those days. I think Jesus probably didn’t object to any of these activities.

Let me get this straight. Through some pretty wild conjecture, your friend, who argues for the “near impossibility to reconstruct what the man Jesus actually had said and taught to his disciples,” can now confidently declare through wild conjecture that “Jesus probably didn’t object to any of these activities?”

Christ, and the narratives we have of Christ, epitomized counter-cultural behavior. He shocked the pants (OK, more like the simlahs :wink) off of people with his counter-cultural statements!

For goodness sake, the man who lived in a culture where “infanticide and child abandonment were permitted and sometimes even encouraged,” (to use your friend’s words) . . . Christ had the gall to come out and say things like, “Suffer the little children to come unto me” and how taking the position of a lowly child grants you the Kingdom of Heaven or how leading a child to sin is worse than drowning with a millstone around your neck. Clearly Christ stood up and challenged a culture with little regard for children.

There are plenty of other examples of Him standing up to the culture. But ultimately, the man was so counter-cultural that he was crucified for it! Yet we’re supposed to believe that he looked at abortion, infanticide, and infant abandonment and declared, “Meh! Whatever!”

I don’t think your friend puts up a very good case for that.

Please keep us continually posted on how this goes!